LN1 - "Great works are performed, not by strength, but by perseverance."

[haphazard1]

OK, just tried WB on a test map - Lincoln, Monarch difficulty, etc.

Unpromoted archer attacking an unpromoted warrior on flat ground (CC has woodsman promos, so it is as if he were unpromoted). Odds shown were...



92.7% for the archer!

3.00 to 2.00, 1 First Strike for archer (I can not recall seeing the 10% defense which was mentioned, except in coastal waters with boats.)

I think we would be looking at a 2 worker grab-and-delete. Chances of keeping those workers are just too low. So now I am not sure if it is worth it, although going after Joao in general appeals to me.

On the espionage ratio, we had 72/68 for Joao. After hitting enter, we get 76/72. So the 4 point diff is some kind of end-of-turn artifact, I think, and not a sign he has met anyone -- at least as of 2400 BC. Chris would have to check his current save to see what happened in the turns since.

 

[namliaM]

I had not considered the "all outer ring" aspect -- maybe Joao won't go for the site immediately. I know I would, because of the closeness to the capital and the flood plains. As a mostly CE player, I love those flood plains.

The AI will settle a city there, but... not where we are thinking.
Probably either on the grass east of the forrest or even on the FP north of there.

I like the way you think.

Do we steal the workers and delete them? Or hope for a good RNG roll and we keep them. Payoff is MUCH larger the second way, of course, but we risk Joao getting them back.

The odds are low, no doubt about it. But for the odds to matter the AI has to attack our warrior. Something we 'smart humans' would do in a hartbeat, then again we probably would move the archer out to defend the Workers rather than stand the chance of the workers beeing lifted/deleted.

For which the AI isnt smart enough either. I think there is a good chance the AI will not attack. That city archer most probably has a defend script to it... i.e. city garison....

 

[ChrisFromLux]

I checked the Espionage Screen ... 92/90 with Joaoaoaoa, 0/2 with Sitting Bull. Joao hasn't met anyone else yet!

And these Archer vs. Warrior odds are really low ... but I suppose you tested only the combat odds themselves.
I'll world-build a bit, to see if Joaoaoao will attack us, and what happens to those workers if he counter-attacks ...

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Hmmm, I've made a little World-Builder-Test ... but of course, all depends on the script these Archers have ...

In 1 test, both Archers had 'City-Defense-script', and the 2nd Archer moved into the city, and the other one stayed inside the city ...

In a 2nd test, I gave 'Explorer-script' to the 2nd Archer, and in that case, he didn't even move into the city but continued exploring ...


Hmmm, guess I'll put myself on namliaM's side, and my vote goes to 'Get us these workers' ... even if I'm still not 100% convinced that he won't attack ...
He may still have another unit in the fog

 

[haphazard1]

Hmmm, guess I'll put myself on namliaM's side, and my vote goes to 'Get us these workers' ... even if I'm still not 100% convinced that he won't attack ...
He may still have another unit in the fog

Thanks for testing this, Chris.

I'll throw my support to the "grab the workers" camp. Maybe it doesn't pay off, and we end up with a war for little gain. But we want Joao gone anyway, and sooner is better than later so we can keep expanding.

And maybe we get two free workers, courtesy of our friend with the very large hat.

Do we try to get peace again after the worker grab, or do we just fight to the finish with Joao right now? The decision will totally change what to do with our settler, and what to build in Washington after it is done.

War now -> settle gold city (safer, grows fast, maybe can contribute to war effort after a while) and pump axes. Maybe find time for a barracks, but might not be worth it, just rush.

Try to get peace again, fight Joao later -> settle stone city (to keep Joao off the site), defend only while pumping mix of archers and axes from Washington. Probably no barracks in this scenario. Once defence solid, another settler for gold city.

Either choice, we are going to need the copper hooked up ASAP.

Let's get to work.

 

[namliaM]

If we settle a new city Joaoaoao will probably want that city for a while in compensation for peace, unless we can do some more damage with some Axemen

I dont like the idea of settling the stone over the Gold. Gold will contibute big to our research rate, not only the 6 commerce but also (a little later on) start generating GS by running 2 scientists.

What do we want to do by way of cottages?
I asked this before, but got no response... I think we can use some cottages here and there to support our empire... Like the Jungle grass and the Plains tile in the gold city, do we wait untill we can farm them with CS or do we cottage it asap?

 

[haphazard1]

If we settle a new city Joaoaoao will probably want that city for a while in compensation for peace, unless we can do some more damage with some Axemen

Joao may want a city for peace, but we certainly don't have to give him one. We just need enough units to hold our cities and prevent pillaging. Or better yet, enough to take his cities.

If that copper at Oporto is his only metal source, then we should send axes and crush him now. Unpromoted archers and low cultural defenses make for a ripe target.

I dont like the idea of settling the stone over the Gold. Gold will contibute big to our research rate, not only the 6 commerce but also (a little later on) start generating GS by running 2 scientists.

I think we should settle the gold site, and crush Joao. My suggestion of stone over gold was only if we planned to seek peace again after stealing the workers, as a way of preventing Joao from taking the site.

What do we want to do by way of cottages?
I asked this before, but got no response... I think we can use some cottages here and there to support our empire... Like the Jungle grass and the Plains tile in the gold city, do we wait untill we can farm them with CS or do we cottage it asap?

I think we should use some cottages, although if the team wants to play a pure SE I will go along. But there are some sites where a cottage is the logical improvement -- no water until CS (or at all). Even an SE needs some cash for maintenance, and the occasional upgrade.

As for the jungle grass -- we need Iron Working before we can do anything. And a 1 food plains tile doesn't seem that attractive when we want to be growing or running specialists. We could also go with a lighthouse and the Maoi Statues and work a bunch of water tiles for hammers and commerce, but that is a longer-term payoff.

Work the pigs, corn, and gold. Run two scientists with a library. By the time we get to size 6 and have to decide what to do, we'll have more options (IW for that jungle grass, etc.).

 

[ChrisFromLux]

I would definitely settle the Gold-city first. Even if our 'Scout' revealed some nice tiles, and a fish near Stone-city, I think that Gold-City is clearly the better site.

And as we (3) seem to agree on capturing the workers and rushing Joao, we may be able to take Stone-city from Joao, if he decides to settle it for us, or we will raze his bad-located city, and settle it on our own. Of course, this will probably mean that we won't get the Pyramids . On the other hand, crushing Joao and getting the whole land for ourselves seems more important than the Pyramids.


So, we are 3 already voting for capturing the workers and see what happens in 'the real game' ... and we also agree on rushing Joao afterwards, as well as settling the gold-city, and pumping out Axes afterwards.
I'll wait for the rest of the team to show up though, and give us their opinions, before continuing my turnset ...

 

[Lush Ninja]

Excellent. I haven't missed my turnset! I got hit by a virus , so I formatted my HD. Sorry, no starting save unfortunately, but I fixed everything.

Right. War it is then! I see no argument against crushing Joao/stealing his workers. That way we don't have to go for the stone city right away. We could pull a stone thrower gambit which involves letting Joao build the mids (somewhat risky) and then bringing the on him. Hook up that copper ASAP if it's not done already. I'd say we need to outnumber his troops 3-4v1 though we could probably let that one slide (we'd probably end up bankrupting ourselves as well ).

I think as long as we eventually end up with a SE we can build a few cottages here and there. However other improvements should be prioritized first. We need more workers as well if this will be the case.

Tech path should probably be HBR (or do we not have horses?) If not, some other mil tech should be preferable (though myst and masonry must not be forgotten, to say nothing of writing for Libs.

 

[namliaM]

No horses LN, or non availble anyway ...

I was starting to get worried about you... Welcome back...

Construction could be very usefull but it is also very far away... Also IIRC Oporto is on a hill... Atleast Joaoaoa's capitol is not... so maybe we should hit that first and finish with Oporto??

 

[ChrisFromLux]

We could pull a stone thrower gambit which involves letting Joao build the mids (somewhat risky)

I really doubt that will work ... if we steal his workers now, he will be building military units; should we declare peace afterwards, he'll probably build some new workers, and then he would have to settle a new city that grabs the Stone, and then start the Pyramids and finish them before some (maybe) industrious AI that can peacefully expand?

Hook up that copper ASAP if it's not done already.

Copper is already online ... I can start building Axes right after that settler is finished!

No horses LN, or non availble anyway ...

Ahem, there are horses, but on that SB-land West of Washington; not available for the moment, though ... but I suppose that's what you meant ...

Also IIRC Oporto is on a hill... Atleast Joaoaoa's capitol is not...

Oporto is on a hill, right. But for Lisbon ... are we sure it's not on a hill. There's plenty of woods between Lisbon and our Warrior ... does he see a hill that's 2 tiles away, but behind forests (and even 1 forest-hill)?

... so maybe we should hit that first and finish with Oporto??

I agree on that; even if Lisbon should be on hill, once we take that, he's down ... left with that 1 new, unimproved city ...

 

[toug]

What kind of army should we look at? We don't know if Jao has horses, correct?

So maybe assemble a force of 6-8 axeman. I'll also suggest a defensive force of 1-3 archers for garrison duty, particularly because we got the tech for free and could definitely use it.

Assuming we are able to produce a barracks, 50% of the axe get cover and 50% get CR? Or is that too cover-heavy? It might be wise to have a spearman just incase. The spearman could get Combat I in preparation of becoming a medic.

 

[haphazard1]

Ahem, there are horses, but on that SB-land West of Washington; not available for the moment, though ... but I suppose that's what you meant ...

And we are going to want that site -- eventually. For now we'll have to fight without horses.

I agree on that; even if Lisbon should be on hill, once we take that, he's down ... left with that 1 new, unimproved city ...

Definitely. Oporto is little threat by itself. We do need to keep an eye on it and make sure that copper does not get hooked up.

What kind of army should we look at? We don't know if Jao has horses, correct?

We do not know if Joao has either metal or horses at the capital. Oporto has copper, outside the current skinny cross.

So maybe assemble a force of 6-8 axeman. I'll also suggest a defensive force of 1-3 archers for garrison duty, particularly because we got the tech for free and could definitely use it.

We should have an archer or two as a reserve, in case any Portugese units slip past us and go for our cities. Having one with our axe stack for defense on hills and to cover wounded units might be useful as well.

Assuming we are able to produce a barracks, 50% of the axe get cover and 50% get CR? Or is that too cover-heavy? It might be wise to have a spearman just incase. The spearman could get Combat I in preparation of becoming a medic.

We will not be able to get cover axes without a second promotion, even with our Charismatic reduction in XP required.

I think we definitely want a barracks, despite the delay for our main force. Maybe a pair of axes immediately, to move in and pillage targets of opportunity and pin Joao down? Then the barracks and the rest of our axe force?

I also agree with toug that we need at least one spear, just in case Joao has chariots. Maybe the initial "raid and pillage" pair should be an axe and a spear?

 

[Lush Ninja]

Well if we take lisbon joao is gassed.

What's our opfor? I think something like 8 axes, spear and archer will be more than enough. I suppose construction (if possible) is a good thing to have. Cats are essential eventually, unless we strike fast. Thus, speed is key. We should be whipping as fast as we can (every 10 turns)

I also think that only a token force of archers in our cities is enough. If we are threatened, we crack the whip

You're right though, we should definately pillage the living crap out of joao first, after killing/stealing his workers

 

[ChrisFromLux]

So, we all agree on these short-term actions:
- captured those 2 workers, and hope that Joao doesn't attack
- escort the workers home, if they survived
- continue scouting around Lisbon, without being killed (if possible)
- finish the settler in Washington, send him to gold-site, and start an Axe
- continue researching Writing

I'll see if I find some time this evening to play my last 5 turns (would be in ~12 hours). If not, I'll play tomorrow evening ...

 

[ChrisFromLux]

What's our opfor? I think something like 8 axes, spear and archer will be more than enough.

Yes, I think that should be enough. And I wouldn't build many Spears, unless we're sure that Joao has horses. To start with, I think 1 Axe / 1 Spear would be perfect to get Joao's copper offline, continue pillaging his lands, and get a final view of his land/resources should our scouting warriors be destroyed ...

I suppose construction (if possible) is a good thing to have. Cats are essential eventually, unless we strike fast. Thus, speed is key.

Speed is the key, right! I think that if everything works the way we want it, Construction should be too late. Joao should never ever see a Catapult ...

 

[haphazard1]

So, we all agree on these short-term actions:
- captured those 2 workers, and hope that Joao doesn't attack
- escort the workers home, if they survived
- continue scouting around Lisbon, without being killed (if possible)
- finish the settler in Washington, send him to gold-site, and start an Axe
- continue researching Writing

I'll see if I find some time this evening to play my last 5 turns (would be in ~12 hours). If not, I'll play tomorrow evening ...

Looks good to me. Good luck, Chris!

Yes, I think that should be enough. And I wouldn't build many Spears, unless we're sure that Joao has horses. To start with, I think 1 Axe / 1 Spear would be perfect to get Joao's copper offline, continue pillaging his lands, and get a final view of his land/resources should our scouting warriors be destroyed ...

Speed is the key, right! I think that if everything works the way we want it, Construction should be too late. Joao should never ever see a Catapult ...

I agree we should only need 1 spear, as part of the initial raid/pillage pair. If we see chariots from Joao, then we can add more spears to our unit mix.

A question for the team: Do we go entirely for speed, or do we take time (after the first spear/axe pair) to build a barracks? The boost for our axe stack would be helpful, but it would create some delay. Maybe the delay would not be important, if we use the time for our initial axe/spear to explore and do some pillaging?

 

[namliaM]

So, we all agree on these short-term actions:
- captured those 2 workers, and hope that Joao doesn't attack
- escort the workers home, if they survived
- continue scouting around Lisbon, without being killed (if possible)
- finish the settler in Washington, send him to gold-site, and start an Axe
- continue researching Writing

I'll see if I find some time this evening to play my last 5 turns (would be in ~12 hours). If not, I'll play tomorrow evening ...

Dont know about the axe in New York tho... NY Needs some culture to get
1) Hammers
2) Gold

It think we can role enough axemen out of Washington cannot we?
With barracks (CR) I think 2:1 Axe:40%Archer is enough... without a barracks 3:1.... so depends on if guestimate we need 6, 9 or 12 axemen.
Barracks is roughly 2 axemen, so it would be benificial to build it at 3 or more defending archers. Going from 9 axemen to 6...

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Dont know about the axe in New York tho... NY Needs some culture to get
1) Hammers
2) Gold

That's not what I meant ... I meant Washington finishing the settler, send him to the gold and then start an Axe ... in Washington!

For NY, I haven't checked the save, but IIRC, it found be founded on my turns ... 3 turns left on the settler, 3 turns to get in place, I think ...

But nevertheless ... there's nothing we can do for culture atm. No Mysticism for a Monument, no Writing for a Library, no Religion and no creative Leader ...
Starting with a granary and waiting for Writing?

 

[Lush Ninja]

I meant 1 spear and archer each, but we need lots of axes or a rax.