(LOCKED) Going for Gold: Wonders

[Stalker0]

Going for Gold: These threads are designed to lock down elements of the mod for the gold release. In other words, if approved, no further changes are expected for this item.

This thread will debate the Wonders.

The question is: Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Important Notes:

1) There is no such thing as perfect balance.
2) The key is that each element is strong enough to have a niche, even if that niche is for very specific playstyles.
3) If you vote no in the poll, please comment on the elements you think are in an unreasonable state of balance.
4) If you vote yes, there is really no need to comment. The poll is the key note.

 

[pineappledan]

I voted no.

Palace of Westminster is still a sticking point for me. A lot of the power from Statecraft is centered on its wonder, more than is reasonable I would say

Other general notes. Not balance concerns, but it would be nice to reduce the amount of repetition in the other wonders
Lighthouse of Alexandria and Grande Canal do the same thing (+1 move on naval), which I don't think is terribly interesting. Giving the Lighthouse some other bonus would be nice. My proposal would be to give the building a resource diversity modifier, like what the Cothon does.

The Empire State building could be changed to free Great Merchant, instead of the choice of any GP. It currently does the same thing as the leaning tower of Pisa, and no wonders give a free GM specifically.

Pentagon is pretty forgettable since it has no immediate effect. It's not worth the hammers at that stage of the game, and I find I have to play sub-optimally by purposefully allowing my army to obsolete to get any use from it. It certainly isn't as good as Broadway or Bletchley Park

 

[Txurce]

I voted no.

Palace of Westminster is still a sticking point for me. A lot of the power from Statecraft is centered on its wonder, more than is reasonable I would say

Other general notes:
Lighthouse of Alexandria and Grande Canal do the same thing (+1 move on naval), which I don't think is terribly interesting. Giving the Lighthouse some other bonus would be nice. My proposal would be to give the building a resource diversity modifier, like what the Cothon does.

The Empire State building could be changed to free Great Merchant, instead of the choice of any GP. It currently does the same thing as the leaning tower of Pisa, and no wonders give a free GM specifically.

Pentagon is pretty forgettable since it has no immediate effect. It's not worth the hammers at that stage of the game, and I find I have to play sub-optimally by purposefully allowing my army to obsolete to get any use from it. It certainly isn't as good as Broadway or Bletchley Park

I disagree pretty much across the board with you:

• Westminster does not guarantee control of the WC, so it's not too strong in my opinion.
• The Lighthouse and the Grand Canal don't do the same thing.
• If nobody beats me to it, I always make use of the Pentagon. On a side note,Pentagon vs Broadway is a pointless comparison.
• That the Leaning Tower and the Empire State Building are too similar because they both give you a GP (otherwise they're totally different) isn't worth changing -- especially since my guess is most people like having a choice of GP, and it's not disadvantageous for the AI.

 

[chicorbeef]

I voted no.

Palace of Westminster is still a sticking point for me. A lot of the power from Statecraft is centered on its wonder, more than is reasonable I would say

Other general notes:
Lighthouse of Alexandria and Grande Canal do the same thing (+1 move on naval), which I don't think is terribly interesting. Giving the Lighthouse some other bonus would be nice. My proposal would be to give the building a resource diversity modifier, like what the Cothon does.

The Empire State building could be changed to free Great Merchant, instead of the choice of any GP. It currently does the same thing as the leaning tower of Pisa, and no wonders give a free GM specifically.

Pentagon is pretty forgettable since it has no immediate effect. It's not worth the hammers at that stage of the game, and I find I have to play sub-optimally by purposefully allowing my army to obsolete to get any use from it. It certainly isn't as good as Broadway or Bletchley Park

I agree with the PoW, but we had a thread on that and the poll was 50/50, so it's probably not being changed.

The Lighthouse/Grand Canal have different effects come at vastly different times/different ways, I don't mind it.

I disagree with the Empire State Building change. If you like free GMs from wonders, pick a free GM. As simple as that. I prefer the versatility.

 

[theMisterRud]

Wonders are pretty balanced in my opinion. If I had to "force" a no, I would say that University of Sankore is kind of "nice to have, might as well get it" material (a bit like Slater Mill). I'm much more exited about Alahambra or Forbidden Palace than UoS.

I would like to point out that GM for Empire State Building is more of a flavour thing that anything, and I would agree on it honestly (don't have a strong opinion about it though)

 

[CrazyG]

Terracotta Army is still pretty nuts in my opinion, but overall there are no longer wonders I always skip or wonders that single-handedly win the game. Its in a good spot overall

 

[Rekk]

I'm still skipping Oracle, but that may just be residue from when the Science was GAP.

 

[ElliotS]

I'm still skipping Oracle, but that may just be residue from when the Science was GAP.

Yeah actually I forgot it existed. Purged it from my memory. What does it do right now? (At work.)

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I don't know. I'd say I'll give it a yes, it's balanced but I am never going to touch the green missionary wonder thingy, especially not after founders and most enhancers got nerfed, but the rest appears to be in order.

Yeah actually I forgot it existed. Purged it from my memory. What does it do right now? (At work.)

Oracle gives 500 Science/Culture (scaling with gamespeed) and a free Temple. I'd rather get Parthenon but it's decent.

 

[Bascule2000]

Oracle gives 500 Science/Culture (scaling with gamespeed) and a free Temple.

Has that changed since March? It used to scale with era; build it in the medieval era for 1000 science and culture. I didn't like that as it's only possible to do if the civ building it is already a runaway.

 

[pineappledan]

It uses the same table as other yield on construction buildings, so it should scale with era, yes.

Now you’ve convinced me to try this for whenever I get around to an Ethiopia game. Take Tradition. Rush top of the tree. prioritize library of Alexandria. Time your religion founding so that you can clear the last 2 techs needed to break into medieval. Take GEng from royal guardhouse and bulb it on oracle for 1k /

 

[Legen]

Yeah, Oracle scales with era. I rememeber getting 1000 when I was a runaway as the Celts, with Way of Transcendance on the top. Got to Medieval, instabuilt Oracle, it felt really strong.

I think the era scaling makes Oracle a win-more wonder, especially when considering you'll get a cost reduction on it when reaching Medieval due to the other wonders you built impacting less on its cost. But it's still decent at Classical due to the -10% illiteracy need reduction it provides for the empire.

 

[Legen]

About strong wonders, I don't think there's any wonder that feels like a must.

About weak wonders, I often feel Mausoleum is on the weak side, even with a WLTKD civilization, since the bonus yields only apply to the city that built it. I'd consider a buff to it, since it isn't remarkable even for the niche it was supposed to fulfill.

And more of a quality-of-life aspect, I often wished that Alhambra, Branderbug Gate and Heroic Epic provided a global military benefit, rather than only in the city they were built. I often assumed the local aspect is meant to curb a runaway warmonger from building a top-tier army too easily, is it really the case?

 

[Stalker0]

It uses the same table as other yield on construction buildings, so it should scale with era, yes.

Now you’ve convinced me to try this for whenever I get around to an Ethiopia game. Take Tradition. Rush top of the tree. prioritize library of Alexandria. Time your religion founding so that you can clear the last 2 techs needed to break into medieval. Take GEng from royal guardhouse and bulb it on oracle for 1k /

That's how I use it. I time it to get the 1k/1k bonus, and also try to ensure I still need a Temple. It doesn't have the culture push of the old one, but the extra 1k science is no joke. I have found it a niche wonder, but a useful one.

 

[hr_oskar]

I started building the Oracle in recent games just to deny it to the runaway civ. Plus the benefits to myself ofc. My observation had been that the runaway nearly always builds the Oracle and runs even further away after that. Definitely a "win more" wonder as stated above.

I didn't know the yields scale with era but then building that wonder after first reaching the medieval era is not going to happen often on deity.

I think the wonders are amazingly well balanced in VP though. Not just among themselves but also relative to everything else -- it's possible to build any wonder even on deity and it can either be good or not that good all depending on the situation. I don't think any Civ version I ever played had such well balanced wonders.

 

[Owlbebach]

Yeah actually I forgot it existed. Purged it from my memory. What does it do right now? (At work.)

Same here, Oracle was very OP with free policy but absolutely not worth it right now.

Overall it seems to be okay. I spip many wonders but i play Deity so usually it is not about them being that bad, but them being not good enough to rush to its technology.

 

[Paramecium]

I would not say that it is imbalanced or overpowered, but in most games, if I am a warmonger or a peacefull turtle, I try to get the Great Wall. It is just that awesome, in my opinion, it makes those wars before Industrial Era way to easy, if you just want to stay in your corner. It takes away all the first strike possiblities if you are not placing your units directly on the border. In combination with Citadels, you can very very easily hold big waves of carpets of doom. You dont even need to upkeep a big army, because you have enough time to relocate your troops where you need them, if you manage to hold your enemy in the borderlands.

And as a warmonger, I try to build it before the AI, because you have no guarantee that it wont be build by my neighbour who I want to conquer. And it is really a pain in the ... if you want to invade and the terrain is rough too, so denying it for the AI is very important.

Is it overpowered or imbalanced? Sometimes I have the feeling, but I have no clue how to change it. Maybe it would be just fair, if the attacker just needs dynamite to cancel it effects and not the owner, which you can delay as long as possiblie, if you want to...

 

[Grabbl]

@ Oracle:

Shouldn't we remove the era scaling then and balance the yields? It seems unintuitive to make it profitable to delay the construction of a wonder (in an obvious way, not like delaying Terracotta is profitable if you build new units meanwhile).

@ Great Wall:

I feel since it only removes all movement points when entering the borders, it isn't too strong. It basically only removes the first strike on war declaration, but units can move as usual once they are within the borders.

 

[ElliotS]

@ Oracle:

Shouldn't we remove the era scaling then and balance the yields? It seems unintuitive to make it profitable to delay the construction of a wonder (in an obvious way, not like delaying Terracotta is profitable if you build new units meanwhile).

@ Great Wall:

I feel since it only removes all movement points when entering the borders, it isn't too strong. It basically only removes the first strike on war declaration, but units can move as usual once they are within the borders.

@Oracle Yeah era scaling seems wrong here. Take that off and make it 500, 750 or 1000 all the time.

@Great Wall
This wonder feels very powerful, both to use and against people, even after the changes. You go in and out of boarders more often than you think.

 

[Stalker0]

@ Oracle:

Shouldn't we remove the era scaling then and balance the yields? It seems unintuitive to make it profitable to delay the construction of a wonder (in an obvious way, not like delaying Terracotta is profitable if you build new units meanwhile).

@ Great Wall:

I feel since it only removes all movement points when entering the borders, it isn't too strong. It basically only removes the first strike on war declaration, but units can move as usual once they are within the borders.

I like the oracle idea. Make it 1k\1k and be done with it.