Logic behind Tribute / AP stop war

[digitCruncher]

I have a main question and a couple of minor ones. I am running the revolutions mod, but this doesn't effect any of the questions in any way.

Main Question: I am in a war against the Ottoman / Persian / Mayan superpower. My kill / loss ratio is something like 5:1, if you don't include workers it was 10:1, and if you don't include kills from the vassals, it was something like 30:1.
I captured 2 Mayan cities, and an Ottoman city. However, even after this entire smack-down, the Ottomans STILL demand that I return thier city to them for peace.
Thier power rating is significantly higher than mine, due in part to an insane production powerhouse... but surely it doesn't effect that much, right?
Anyway, I had almost gotten to the point of accepting the AI funnies... until an AP vote came up, asking to say "Stop the war against Memhed". The Ottomans... voted to STOP the war!
It was a real head-scratching moment. They wouldn't accept peace for anything less than a city, but they WOULD accept peace via the AP, and even vote for it!?

Question #2: Why don't Pikemen obsolete with Rifles? Aren't Rifles superior in every way? And if it is a production problem: Why do Warriors (the cheapest unit) obsolete?

Question #3: Is flank attack weakened for the human player? I attacked with 8 Knights vs. 5 catapults... and not a single catapult died.

Question #4: How big is the bonus for War Weariness / Unit Upkeep, at Noble difficulty? Seeing inside the Ottoman cities, shows me an INSANE discount... even without a Holy Shrine (which I have 3), the Ottomans can field an army 1.5 times as large as me (possibly even higher... I have a tech lead, so it could be as much as double the size of mine in pure unit count), at 50% tax. Also, even after losing EASILY over 50 units at 100% foriegn culture, and a further 50% at 50% my culture, 50% his vassals culture, he still only has 2 WW per 13 population. I have almost that level of War Weariness, and I have lost 1/10th of that army on foriegn soil...

 

[RIcs]

Q1a: Power chart counts a lot. And perhaps his SOD hasn't shown up yet.
Q1b: AP is a flaw in any voting... just ignore it...

Q2: I guess it's about game mechanism, (which it's logic works pretty simple)
pike = 8 , against mounted = 16
rifle = 14, against mounted = 17.5
so a rifleman outrun a pikeman in every aspect, the pikeman should be obsolete...

Q3: Don't think any Cat should die if not attacked directly, but damaged badly by flanking.

Q4: perhaps you DOW on him? Being DOW suffered very little on WW.

 

[Joshua368]

If his power level is still higher than yours, he probably has a large stack somewhere. Was he recently in a war with someone else? It may be on the far side of his empire and has to march across... destroying it would pretty much crush his spirits.

 

[digitCruncher]

@Rics: Really? Wow. That is totally different than what I thought...

1a) I have visibility on all cities. I know where his stack is. Although he doesn't have another war, he DOES have a killer of a stack wandering around his main empire. I assume, of course, that that is an anti-revolution stack, to quash any uprisings... of course, it could be that the AI can't understand how to get to my land quickly...

1b) Thanks for that. Its good to know that I shouldn't take the AP votes too seriously

2) Um... dude. Thats my question. If a rifle is better than a pikeman in every aspect, why keep the pike?
The question is because this is the first time I got rifles BEFORE Grenadiers, so normally I have pikes + Grenadiers. This time, however, I have rifles + pikes... which are both anti-mounted units (??)

3) I have had MY catapults / trebs slaughtered by flank attack before, and it was a terrible strike. I have also killed weakened cats and trebs (IE. They attacked previously, and withdrew), and killed them with flank attack. Siege units DO die with flank attack. Its wierd that I find it hard to kill some seige even with 8 successful attacks!!

4) I was under the impression WW was only effected by what the cultural bonus was on the tile that was being fought. If it was 100% foriegn culture, then they get the full force of WW, and if it is 100% homeland culture, then they get no WW at all. I didn't know that "Who declared war" has an effect on War Weariness... Are you sure?

And sure... except to crush his stack would mean to cross miles of Mayan lands, then go through half of the Ottoman mega-empire, and then somehow still have the power to fight him on his home turf His vassal is a really annoying buffer...

 

[Crighton]

My advice would be to prolong the war since it seems to be mostly defensive for you (thus not much of a WW killer, or at least as much as what he'll be facing after those casualties).

Gobble up that vassal barrier and launch a few suicide units behind the lines whose only goal is to pillage the *##$^* out of his lands.

beyond that, ignore the AP like the previous poster said.

 

[digitCruncher]

Alas, the AP voted to end the war, and even if I voted no, I would have lost the vote. And there was no way I was voting "Defy". That would kill my empire >.<

Also, I couldn't keep the war up for much longer. The Spanish revolutionaries were rising up in my newly conquered lands (Revolutions Mod FTW!!), the Mayan cultural powerhouses were encrouching my lands, requiring me to switch to Free Speech ASAP, and this war of attrition wasn't doing ANYTHING to the AI (It was shrugging of those penalties like anything!!)

Add on the fact that the Mayans wouldn't surrender, even though I was playing Tectonics, and thier three remaining cities were plains or tundra, and the only redeeming ability was that they had 3 ivory sources, and a horse source.

And finally, to rub salt in the wound, my workers had been nabbled up by commando swords, Mayan Knights, and I had no workers left, and spies were killing my border-side improvements left right and center...

Unfortunatly, keeping the war would hurt me more than it would hurt the Ottomans

 

[kniteowl]

Question #2: Why don't Pikemen obsolete with Rifles? Aren't Rifles superior in every way? And if it is a production problem: Why do Warriors (the cheapest unit) obsolete?

You need to have all the Pikeman's upgradable units available before they are eliminated from the build queue (aka become technically obsolete)... I think Pikman can upgrade to grenadiers, I can't remember.

eg - I can build Archers & Longbowmen or Archers & Crossbowmen, once both Longbowmen & Crossbowmen are available I can no longer build archers.

2) Um... dude. Thats my question. If a rifle is better than a pikeman in every aspect, why keep the pike?
The question is because this is the first time I got rifles BEFORE Grenadiers, so normally I have pikes + Grenadiers. This time, however, I have rifles + pikes... which are both anti-mounted units (??)

Pikman are cheaper? lol... well 95% of the time you're better off building the Rilfe but you never know... for example your city is under attack by a SOD of Mounted units, you predict that your city won't be able to produce a Rifle in time to defend, so you go for the cheaper substitute... it probably rarely ever happens but you never know.

 

[RIcs]

@Rics: Really? Wow. That is totally different than what I thought...

1a) I have visibility on all cities. I know where his stack is. Although he doesn't have another war, he DOES have a killer of a stack wandering around his main empire. I assume, of course, that that is an anti-revolution stack, to quash any uprisings... of course, it could be that the AI can't understand how to get to my land quickly...

1b) Thanks for that. Its good to know that I shouldn't take the AP votes too seriously

2) Um... dude. Thats my question. If a rifle is better than a pikeman in every aspect, why keep the pike?
The question is because this is the first time I got rifles BEFORE Grenadiers, so normally I have pikes + Grenadiers. This time, however, I have rifles + pikes... which are both anti-mounted units (??)

3) I have had MY catapults / trebs slaughtered by flank attack before, and it was a terrible strike. I have also killed weakened cats and trebs (IE. They attacked previously, and withdrew), and killed them with flank attack. Siege units DO die with flank attack. Its wierd that I find it hard to kill some seige even with 8 successful attacks!!

4) I was under the impression WW was only effected by what the cultural bonus was on the tile that was being fought. If it was 100% foriegn culture, then they get the full force of WW, and if it is 100% homeland culture, then they get no WW at all. I didn't know that "Who declared war" has an effect on War Weariness... Are you sure?

And sure... except to crush his stack would mean to cross miles of Mayan lands, then go through half of the Ottoman mega-empire, and then somehow still have the power to fight him on his home turf His vassal is a really annoying buffer...

1a) ah.. then there must be some reason for his power chart being so high.. need to bring it down to declare a "win".

2) ops.. that upgrade chain logic replace that.

3) never flank to kill one myself, just damage..... (if you can... which means you can kill both defense unit and the cat in just one attack? )

4) pretty sure (or search ww formula !?). and if any of his side has that Temple of Zeus, even worse.
edit: something to do with this parameter

- <Define>
<DefineName>FORCED_WAR_WAR_WEARINESS_MODIFIER</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>-50</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

 

[brainshannon]

1) Often if the enemies power level is above your own they will refuse to make peace in negotiations unless you agree to give them something. Usually if you've captured one of their cities they will ask for that back, but that doesn't mean that is the only peace trade they will accept! Try offering them a chunk of gold or a relatively unimportant tech in place of the city and often times they will accept it.

2)kniteowl is correct; you need to have access to all the units the obsolete unit upgrades to before it disappears.

3)To perform a flank attack you must have the correct era's mounted unit (i.e. knights to attack trebs, cavalry to attack cannons, etc.) and the units must have the flanking promotion. Finally, your mounted unit must survive the battle (i.e. win or withdraw) in order to inflict damage by flank attack. Flank attacks can definitely kill siege weapons provided these three conditions are met.

4) War weariness increases as you occupy enemy territory. Most likely the enemy cities you occupied resulted in the large war weariness number.

 

[Yzman]

1) Often if the enemies power level is above your own they will refuse to make peace in negotiations unless you agree to give them something. Usually if you've captured one of their cities they will ask for that back, but that doesn't mean that is the only peace trade they will accept! Try offering them a chunk of gold or a relatively unimportant tech in place of the city and often times they will accept it.

2)kniteowl is correct; you need to have access to all the units the obsolete unit upgrades to before it disappears.

3)To perform a flank attack you must have the correct era's mounted unit (i.e. knights to attack trebs, cavalry to attack cannons, etc.) and the units must have the flanking promotion. Finally, your mounted unit must survive the battle (i.e. win or withdraw) in order to inflict damage by flank attack. Flank attacks can definitely kill siege weapons provided these three conditions are met.

4) War weariness increases as you occupy enemy territory. Most likely the enemy cities you occupied resulted in the large war weariness number.

I think you you wrong on 1 thing, you don't need any flanking promotion to my knowledge. They do it automatically. Mine always do it, and I definitely never give them the flanking promotion.

 

[Joshua368]

Also I think as of 3.17 mounted units can flank seige from previous eras. Pretty sure this was one of the changes...