Logistics Skirmishers (v3)

[azum4roll]

Frustrated from determining which terrain is considered "open" for Skirmisher Doctrine? What about we remove all those open bonus/rough penalty on the skirmisher line?

Introducing Logistics Skirmishers, where every skirmisher can shoot twice at the cost of 50% experience gained from combat and lowered ranged combat strength!

Changes:

Skirmisher Doctrine reworked:
+40% Combat Strength when defending against all Ranged Attacks. (To make them not instantly die to all ranged attacks. Trust me, they need this and they're still more weak to ranged than melee.)
-50% Experience gained from combat.
May attack twice.

Chariot Archer and War Chariot gets the Beam Axle promotion:
Forest, Jungle, Marsh and Hills costs an additional movement point to cross.

Mongolia UA tweak:
Mounted Ranged Units gain +1 Movement and gain Experience Normally. +100% Tribute Yields from City-State bullying.

Logistics removed from skirmisher promotion tree.

Parthian Tactics now accessible from Barrage III (in addition to Accuracy III).

Light Tank and Helicopter Gunship gains Armor Plating I.

Helicopter Gunship can hover on every tile and does NOT embark in ocean.

Movement, CS and RCS changes:

UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CHARIOT_ARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 3 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CLINUIT_QAMUTIIK';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_EGYPTIAN_WARCHARIOT';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MONGOLIAN_KESHIK';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CELTS_SCYTHED_CHARIOT';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_HUN_HORSE_ARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_IA_YUEZHI';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MOUNTED_BOWMAN';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ARABIAN_CAMELARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_POLAND_PANCERNY';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CUIRASSIER';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 3 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_INDIAN_WARELEPHANT';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AUSTRIAN_HUSSAR';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_JFD_DEATHS_HEAD';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CAVALRY';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_BERBER_CAVALRY';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_SHOSHONE_COMANCHE_RIDERS';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 4 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_RUSSIAN_COSSACK';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 5 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ANTI_TANK_GUN';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 5 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ARABIA_HASHEMITE_RAIDER';
UPDATE Units SET Moves = 6 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_HELICOPTER_GUNSHIP';

UPDATE Units SET Combat = 6 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CHARIOT_ARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 6 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CLINUIT_QAMUTIIK';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 8 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_EGYPTIAN_WARCHARIOT';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 9 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MONGOLIAN_KESHIK';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 8 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CELTS_SCYTHED_CHARIOT';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 10 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_HUN_HORSE_ARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 10 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_IA_YUEZHI';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 15 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MOUNTED_BOWMAN';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 17 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ARABIAN_CAMELARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 18 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_POLAND_PANCERNY';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 23 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CUIRASSIER';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 27 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_INDIAN_WARELEPHANT';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 25 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AUSTRIAN_HUSSAR';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 27 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_JFD_DEATHS_HEAD';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 36 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CAVALRY';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 37 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_BERBER_CAVALRY';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 37 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_SHOSHONE_COMANCHE_RIDERS';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 38 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_RUSSIAN_COSSACK';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 50 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ANTI_TANK_GUN';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 62 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ARABIA_HASHEMITE_RAIDER';
UPDATE Units SET Combat = 69 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_HELICOPTER_GUNSHIP';

UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 6 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CHARIOT_ARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 5 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CLINUIT_QAMUTIIK';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 7 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_EGYPTIAN_WARCHARIOT';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 9 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MONGOLIAN_KESHIK';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 10 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CELTS_SCYTHED_CHARIOT';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 10 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_HUN_HORSE_ARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 10 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_IA_YUEZHI';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 13 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MOUNTED_BOWMAN';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 14 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ARABIAN_CAMELARCHER';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 14 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_POLAND_PANCERNY';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 19 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CUIRASSIER';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 22 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_INDIAN_WARELEPHANT';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 20 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_AUSTRIAN_HUSSAR';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 22 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_JFD_DEATHS_HEAD';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 30 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CAVALRY';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 31 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_BERBER_CAVALRY';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 31 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_SHOSHONE_COMANCHE_RIDERS';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 33 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_RUSSIAN_COSSACK';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 38 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ANTI_TANK_GUN';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 41 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ARABIA_HASHEMITE_RAIDER';
UPDATE Units SET RangedCombat = 53 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_HELICOPTER_GUNSHIP';

Basically, non-UUs deal 20 damage in average per hit to same tech tier melee units and take 45 damage in average from them.

Have fun!

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Can I use this with 3/4UC?

 

[azum4roll]

Can I use this with 3/4UC?

No incompatibility, but you'll need to tweak the 3/4UC UU values/promotions yourself.

 

[Stalker0]

So I tried this out in combination with the late game war rebalance. In general the values felt pretty good, the units were durable enough but not too durable, and were generally superior enough to ranged units when they could double attack that made them worth the trouble.

Probably the exception was the Skirmisher which felt overtuned. I found skirmishers just dominating everything else, heck even the barbarian skirmisher was kicking my butt for a while. That early in the game the mobility is already really good so combine it with the extra damage and you have a killer unit on your hands.

Is it "superior" to base VP? I think that depends on your taste. Both provide a tactical puzzle, this version does make them more flexible on varieties of terrain like you often see on Communitas_79 as an example. Probably the biggest selling point is I never leave my skirmishers in the shed, which I will do in base VP sometimes if the terrain is just not favorable for a specific part of the campaign. On the other hand I do think these units can sometimes look superior to their contemporizes if you get the right setup to make full use of them.

 

[azum4roll]

Weird, since my experience is that Chariot archers are overtuned (if you get horses early they're the best unit), but Skirmishers are fine in practice. They do ok damage to Spearmen (Formation) and little to Swordsmen (Cover, higher CS), and cannot outrun Horsemen (which is one tech tier lower) so that matchup depends on who strikes first.

Do you think their CS or RCS are too high?

 

[Stalker0]

Do you think their CS or RCS are too high?

Hehe maybe both? So one issue is against warriors. Now that may seem silly, skirmishers are a much later tech unit, but depending on tech tree and the cost of upgrades you can often field skirmishers against warriors (and especially with barbarians that tend to upgrade pretty regularly).

These skirmishers tear through warriors. I am doing another run, and I have had to maintain a 4 warrior perimeter because of 1 barb skirmisher. Even against barb horsemen I've never had so much trouble, they can do 44-60 damage to a warrior because of terrain, and warriors can't really hit them back.

So perhaps my main issue is just the barb skirmisher, because it comes early enough, and is close enough to your borders, to wreck such damage. Is it possible to adjust the barb skirmisher stats to be a little softer but leave the base one alone?

 

[Stalker0]

Actually I just played against Spain and no, I think skirmishers are too strong period. They still mow down Spears and Horsemen.

 

[Stalker0]

Playing a few more early to medieval wars:

1) I do think Skirmishers need to lose 1 RCS (and maybe even 1 CS). I find that on both sides (when the AI uses them against me and I against them) that they are just overperforming. Its mainly their strength combined with the circumstances of the era, as roads and such haven't been fully established, its quite easy to poke in areas your enemy cannot retaliate, and you don't have enough units to cover all your territory, so that mobility is very strong. With horsemen, the lack of medics and friendly terrain generally means that horseman naturally "exhaust" themselves as they attack, and so can still be countered even after doing good damage. However, with good use, Skirmishers "never stop", which is why they can apply so much pressure and do so much damage.

2) Heavy Skirmishers feel spot on. They deliver damage comparable to a crossbow with good mobility but pikes and cover or formation longswords hold up pretty well against them, and then Tercios are of course the natural counter a bit later on. In general I found good uses for both heavy skirmishers and crossbows depending on the circumstances and terrain. The knight feels weakened in this new meta but I actually find they get a resurgence when cannons come out, as proper flanking and promotions allows a knight to 1 shot them.

3) The AI does seem to be awfully skittish when facing Heavy Skirmishers. Even though their Tercios were taking basically no damage with my Heavy S, they were pulling back and drop their formation, which was strange to me, but I'll have to see more before I would say its a true problem, could have just been the circumstances.

 

[Stalker0]

Case in point

Spoiler :

This little devil killed a spear, forced me to buy another spear, which it then forced into my city, has now combined with a buddy and is pushing my sword back, and is now racing to an exposed part of my civ where I may lose a TR (which of course will spawn another one). With desert movement, these guys are nigh unstoppable.

 

[azum4roll]

How are you getting so much faith to enhance at turn 151 as Morocco?

Desert movement has always been broken. I think it's why they replaced barbarian chariot archers with handaxes.

There's a Civilization_UnitClassOverrides table. We can replace barbarian Skirmishers with Comp Bows or something.

 

[Stalker0]

How are you getting so much faith to enhance at turn 151 as Morocco?

Desert movement has always been broken. I think it's why they replaced barbarian chariot archers with handaxes.

There's a Civilization_UnitClassOverrides table. We can replace barbarian Skirmishers with Comp Bows or something.

I’m trying out an infinite city spam strategy as Morocco, combined with commerce it generates a lot of faith.

i still think the skirmisher is overturned in regular cases but removing the barb element would remove the biggest abuse at the moment

 

[Stalker0]

So after several more playthroughs, other than my continuous feedback that the skirmisher is overtuned, I do think the CS on the cavalry is too high, its basically a tanking unit at its current value. (that is with late game war rebalance).

So the ultimate question of balance becomes:

1) How does the new line stack against ranged units?
2) How does the new line stack against melee mounted?

Note: When I use the word "skirmisher" in the rest of the post, I am now referring to the line, not the unit.

To the first question, I think the balance is pretty good. I use both lines, and though I think skirmishers are often a little bit better, considering their strategic resource cost that seems completely fine.

To the second, after several playthroughs I have found that I have replaced mounted melee with skirmisher type units almost exclusively (maybe keeping 1-2 melee units). This simply comes down the realities of high difficulty combat....most wars are spent at the opponents border, killing wave after wave of units with ranged attacks, until they are weakened enough for a big push. In this model, skirmishers that can move in, weaken the enemy, and then cycle out for more skirmishers to come in....is simply superior to the mounted melee that might kill a unit, but generally takes too much damage (or death) to warrant the trade.

In the core mod, terrain dependencies made it where even though the skirmishing model is still superior....the damage was lowered so much that mounted melee was still preferable in certain scenarios. With that dependency gone, skirmishers are just better for what the human needs them to do.

Now I think the balance is reasonable, I don't think skirmishers dominate with these changes....and honestly I don't think there is really a fix. The human is always going to prioritize the ability to focus ranged damage and snipe enemy units without taking damage themselves...that's just the name of the game. So accepting that these changes obsolete mounted melee except for a few to keep around...the changes make skirmishers fun, it certainly removes the terrain headache, and skirmishers are a reasonable alternative to ranged units...without overshadowing them.

 

[azum4roll]

Change log for v2 (2021-03-07) (compatible with 3-2 version):

• Chariot Archer CS from 8/8 to 6/6
• War Chariot CS from 9/8 to 8/7
• Skirmisher CS from 11/10 to 9/9
• Light Tank and Helicopter Gunship gain Armor Plating I

 

[azum4roll]

Change log for v3 (2021-09-13) (compatible with 1.0 version):

• Horse Archer CS from 11/10 to 10/10
• Helicopter Gunship can hover on every tile including ocean
• Added 4UC, Inuit, Kushan and Prussia compatibility

 

[Delvemor]

I'm trying this with Morocco and I really like it. The changes here make the skirmisher line less powerful in the ideal situation but still useful in rough terrain unlike the default skirmisher doctrine. The way I play the game, they don't replace either ranged units or mounted melee units and have their own niche which works much better with your mod. So far Skirmishers, Heavy Skirmishers and Cuirassiers are not too strong or too weak but Berber Cavalry with their special promotion ignoring movement penalty in rough terrain could be a bit too much once I start using them.

 

[YoullPay4ThisInTime]

Welp, I didn't notice the skirmisher rework before starting my 2.7.3 game so rip balance I guess. Amusingly it looks like this mod is overriding everything except the new skirmisher promotion (+50% ranged defense and double flanking). @azum4roll do you plan to make a V4 with the new promotion disabled or will you abandon this mod ?

​

 

[azum4roll]

Check out Misc Tweaks for VP instead, which includes this mod (more balanced too).

I haven't started playing 2.7 yet. Maybe you can add a line to remove the new skirmisher promotion from being given for free to skirmishers and it'll work as expected.

 

[YoullPay4ThisInTime]

I'm afraid I don't have the modding skills to do that but thanks for the tip