Lonely Hearts 2: Shaka

[willpax]

Spoiler :

For this round, the goal was some early expansion, cottage spamming, and initial research goals.

Some barbarian difficulties delayed things somewhat, but I ended up founding city #2 near the mouth of the river in 1810 BC. I had to build a few emergency warriors to deal with an early barb wave (3 warriors and one archer in two turns), but survived.

Initial research goals: pottery for cottages, writing for libraries and to unlock code of laws, and monarchy for hereditary rule. Those, along with mathematics for chopping, were finished by 40 BC. No lightbulbing, no Oracle--all of these techs were earned the old fashioned way (helped by having 5 growing cottages in the flood plains of the capital). Still, I managed to found Confucianism in 310 BC, which (after it spreads) will help some with happiness even as it complicates diplomacy at first contact.

I have founded four cities so far, with two of those cities currently producing settlers. I've managed to keep up a 70% research rate, so I think I can up the pace of expansion for the next round. I could use a few more workers as well. I've got enough impis for fog busting, and they have discovered a well-located barbarian city near the ivory, so I plan on building a few axes to take control over this next round.

I think further, and more rapid, expansion will be the order of the day for the next round. The main questions at this point concern research order. Some possible priorites:

1.Civil service for bureacracy, which would kick the commerce-heavy capital into overdrive and allow for chain irrigation to some city sites.

2. Metal casting for forges--with silver on the island, forges give us +1 happy in addition to the production bonus.

3. Currency for the +1 trade route for a more robust economy.

4. Optics for the whale and the slow path toward getting off this rock.

So: any advice on research priorities?

The current map:

Current save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_BC-0040.CivWarlordsSave

 

[r_rolo1]

@ Willpax and lurkers

Spoiler :

Not a bad round. Some issues:

1- About tech: IMHO CS >> currency in isolation. Metal casting is not much of a necesity and Optics.... probably the other civs will contact you before you get it. At a larger scope, don't go for liberalism race unless you lightbulb Philo ( doubtfull, because you haven't set a GP farm yet ).Research until Education and go to the bottom side of the tech tree ( guilds + banking ) and strengten your economy.

2- City placement: The barb city is a must keep ( 3 elephants + fish + sugar ) but maybe waiting for catas may be a better move than axes. Found a city 2S 1W of the horses ( grabs fish too ): a city in that site will be a cottage heaven with some production after jungle clearance ( oops, you don't have IW yet ) The western sheep, the NE crabs and the E fish can be places for 2 scientists cities and the other river can hold two cottage cities ( on the other hand, maybe you should let one of those cities for a riverside ironworks ( see the Silustil Intermediate Tactics and Gambits )if you desire a space win ( I'm sure that almost half of your island is below the 30º ))

3- Micromanaging: Farm the last two floodplains in the capitol by now, for a quicker city growth ( now you are in HR is not a issue anymore ). The food count indicates that your capitol won't need farms to sustain a 20 pop, but will take a loooong time if you rely only on cottaged floodplains. After the growth, you can cottage the farms and have a fully cottage city. Nevertheless, I would keep 4 out of the 5 forests you have in the BFC of your capitol ( = 2 ). Later you can lumbermill them.

Your game looks good and when your cottages cities go fully online your tech rate will be quite high. But is important to remember that you need to ReX ASAP ( at least you need to fill the island before the other civs got Astro )

Good luck then

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I'm playing a shadow game with Pottery first, then cottage spam and REX. I'm also beelining straight for Optics - up to Compass with just Optics to go. Don't have mathematics, alphabet, currency or code of laws.

Early pottery let my early research rate run fairly high - I still claimed the bronze. Impi were fantastic for destroying barb archers. Some bad luck when a barbarian axe arrived early and took out a shock axe and an archer and just got finished off by an Impi that raced back in time.

I didn't go for any of the economic techs - I just trusted to cottages and the ikhanda to control expenses. So far the economy is running OK - around 50% on the slider with 7 cities. The barbarians built in the same location but built walls before I could take them so they are waiting until construction.

Some things I probably should have done was get an earlier great scientist. I have just got one now for the academy and two more are underway in different cities.

I won't know until I meet the AI whether this has been a better approach than going for COL + Civil Service first. I am hoping I can still trade machinery and compass for something (I'd rather hang on to Optics if I can). I'll let you know the date when I made contact and where I stood after initial trades so we can compare whether beelining Optics was a good move or not.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

OK, achieved first caravals in 635 AD. Unfortunately by then about the only thing left to trade is Optics - the AIs are all fairly advanced. Not sure this was the best approach - I think earlier civil service would have been worth it.

Future plans are marked as Spoilers - in case you haven't met the AIs yet.

Spoiler :

Its a bit of a lovefest on the main continent. I am not sure who I can line up as enemies for a diplomatic win. Ramses and Ragnar are the two most powerful AI's and share buddism. Tokugawa shares it too, but he isn't going to be much help. I could turn buddist and get enough votes for diplomacy, but Ramses would be the likely opponent unless I can help one of the other AIs pass him. He is in a war with JC at the moment, maybe I'll be lucky and JC will knock him back a bit.

I'm racing for liberalism right now. Not sure I'll get it though as both Mao and Ragnar have the prereqs. I'm last in pretty much everything except land area where I am first. Have settled the continent and will try for Astronomy next.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Now at 1600's, and pretty happy with progress. REX and cottage spam have paid off and I have the largest land area and pop and probably the fastest science rate.

Current status - researching electricity on a beeline to mass media.

Current thoughts (spoilers)

Spoiler :

From from the earlier love fest, the AIs have warred extensively (I have stirred them up of course). Diplomatic win is very much on - allying with Ramses, Ragnar and Mao. Also may get Tokunaga's vote although his war with Ramses makes that a bit tough - I had to stop trading with him (lesson for self - if you friends start fighting amongst themselves, better to stop trading with them yourself rather than wait to be asked. Resume trading after the war.)

Opponent is looking to be Mehmed which is ideal as my allies don't like him much. Julius Caesar is hated by all after I stirred up most of the continent against him. Hopefully Ramses who has the tech lead won't surpass Mehmed in pop.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Now in 1800's and heading for space race which I will easily win, but probably not until early 1900's which isn't great for space on Monarch.

Spoiler :

Diplomatic became near impossible when Ragnar attacked Ramses who had the stupidity to switch out of Buddism. I probably should have managed this better and bribed Ragnar to attack someone else earlier. Thats the problem with Epic speed - I get sucked into just clicking next turn because it takes so many turns for anything to happen.

I was tempted to try and nuke anyone who wouldn't vote for me down to the stone age - but decided to play for a space race instead. Its a foregone conclusion at this point so I might go back and try the nuclear option.

 

[willpax]

Spoiler :

My goals for this segment of the game were to continue expansion while maintaining at least a 40% research rate and taking the barbarian city to the south.

Early on, I got somewhat good news from Lord McCaulay:

Second in land! Maybe things won't be so bad!

I set one city to unit building, two to settlers and workers, and everything new got ikhandas and courthouses (in order to keep the research rate high). Along the way, I successfully snagged the Colossus in my shrine city. I built an army of three cats and three axes to take out Saxony (at 50% defense), then farmed the units out to fogbusting and happiness chores. With the ivory, I built a few war elephants, thinking that they are almost respectable against knights that might come with a quick invasion fleet.

The tech plan:
iron working (for the jungle cities that were quickly coming)
->masonry (needed for construction)
->construction (for cats)
->civil service (for bureaucracy and general usefulness)
->currency (because my research rate was hurting)

One judgment call I am already second guessing: using the scientist I generated to make an academy (better general benefit) rather than lightbulbing philosophy. My thinking was that, since I wasn't running an SE or even much of a hybrid, that pacifism wouldn't be an interesting civic choice anyway, and I think taoism had been founded (not that I necessarily wanted another religion--best to have the rest of the world disunited).

In 1160, we saw strange ships off of our eastern coast:

So: just how far behind am I?

Really only seven techs behind, as I am one turn away from currency. Still not very good.

So I take this moment to make an assessment: how well am I doing?

In terms of early expansion, not so well as I had hoped. My goal was to fill up the continent by first contact, and I am still somewhat short of that goal, although the best spots (aside from the spot in the northeast I call clam island) are claimed:

And what about my demographics? Here, it's a mixed bag with reason for optimism:

So, first in land, and last in people. There's only room to go up.

I had been hoping to make a break out war of aggression, although my habits are those of a builder, not a fighter. That said, I have some catching up to do before I can even think about war--astronomy and chemistry are a long way off, and I don't want to invade and face cavalry and infantry if I do. But with such a huge island and the potential for a large economy, I think space race is the most doable, with a post-liberalism diplomatic win also a possibility depending on how the population and religion issues go.

Whatever victory I eventually pursue, I will need some defenses and some trade in the near term. I need to see if a race for liberalism is possible (doubtful, but I need education anyway, and liberalism for free religion would help with research and diplomacy, so it's a worthwhile path in any event).


Here's the save file, for those who would like to go from here (or critique things so far):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_AD-1160.CivWarlordsSave

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Quite different city locations from me. I had two cities up in the north sharing the copper - one was my GP farm and later Ironworks with copper, lots of floodplains and hills, and the other was my HE city with the whale/silver/pig.

And then one city between your two North East cities that was my second commerce city. My third commerce city was one East of your Nongoma city to share the capitals pig since the capital had so much food. Both were running a lot of cottages by then.

Looking at where you are, you made contact a lot later than I did. I probably had a similar size and number of cities at this point in the game but I was probably ahead from being able to trade earlier and I think I had a lot more cottages by then.

I think the academy was a better choice. But you probably need some great scientists soon for lightbulbing and you will probably need to lightbulb Education before you have anything the AI will want to trade for. Can you get three Great Scientists quickly? What I did was assign two scientists in each of three cities which then produced a steady flow for my first three great scientists. Then they went back to cottages.

The others should come calling soon, so I would completely forget about MetalCasting/Machinery/Optics and concentrate on your economy and getting into a position where you can trade. It is probably good to wait until they all arrive before you pick trading partners (you probably won't have anything to trade for a while anyway).

I would prioritize Alphabet and Literature, to get a mini GP farm operating somewhere as you will need some great people to catch up. Then head straight for Education. You won't get Liberalism, but the idea is to get ahead of the AI by researching deep into the tree so you can trade.

I would forget a military win at this point. You won't beat the AI's to to the renaissance military techs. Space and Diplomatic are very much on. Cultural is doable, but I think space is the best option. Once this continent is fully claimed you should be #1 in land. When it is covered in cottages you will be #1 in research. And the AI suck at attacking long distance.

 

[r_rolo1]

@ willpax and lurkers

Spoiler :

Well, things aren't looking so bad, aren't they? I was expecting a 8 tech gap at first contact... 7 is good. Some issues:

Techs : We almost have currency. Good . Now we need to strengten our economy and in the way get Optics ( Machinery, Guilds, Compass, Optics, Banking: the southern route). Too bad we don't have nothing to trade with Mao... Lets see it there is someone less advanced to appear.

Civics: As they are. We still need slavery for those Ikhandas and Courthouses.

Cities: We need to fill the island before any other civ gets astro ( the last thing that you need is a city of the games big dog in your island, giving you a close borders minus with him). We are at almost 50% ( at least after next turn) and with the incoming Courthouses in the south ( maybe could help ) you can afford some more cities. Some sugestions:

2N 1E of sugar

1W or 1N 1W of the lonely elephant

2N 1W or 3N 1W of the horses

1N of the western sheep (grabs iron too)

1S or 1S 1E of clam ( your clam island city)

1W or 1S 1W of the eastern fish ( not needed for filling, but can be useful for the pop)

Workers: 5 workers for 9 cities is not a good ratio. You need some more for the jungle clearance in the south.

Victories: Space is a possibility, specialy after the Emancipation jump. Diplo can be done too ( Biology will make you #1 in pop, must surely). Too late for cultural. Maybe Conquest or Dom can be possible ( we still need to see the rest of the world, but a late conquest war could be attainable )

In three words : ReX , cottage, economy.

EDIT : Did you ear any GG anoucements ( war between AI)? Or the Liberalism discovery ( that would be bad news... AI loves to grab Astro as the freebie) ?

Keep on the good work !

@ InvisibleStalke

Have you already finished your game? I would like to compare it with mine ( You followed a completely different route from mine).

 

[pigswill]

Been playing along slowly, got up to 1560 ad, still trailing badly but not yet downhearted.

Spoiler :

This was my original dotmap back in 2050bc:

Space for 15 cities according to this map (including some significant overlaps).

By 1000ad I'd got three GS. I used the first for philosophy sling in 20ad, spread taoism a bit then switched to pacifism. I'd gone for CoL earlier but missed on confu, despite this I ran slavery with pacifism which certainly helped with GS production.
I used the second GS for academy in the capital, and researched optics prereqs the hard way before lightbulbing optics in 920ad.
Started meeting other civs by 1000ad, traded for poly, monarchy, currency and alphabet in 995. (Other trades followed later). By 1000ad I'd built 8 of 15 planned cities so quite a long way to go.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

@ willpax and lurkers
Now we need to strengten our economy and in the way get Optics ( Machinery, Guilds, Compass, Optics, Banking: the southern route). Too bad we don't have nothing to trade with Mao... Lets see it there is someone less advanced to appear.

I would leave the southern route alone - it doesn't get you faster to Democracy and the pressure for early Optics is gone now that the AI's have it. Go for Education, Liberalism and Democracy. (You will probably not win Liberalism - I didn't - but you still need to get some techs to trade and you need Democracy.

In three words : ReX , cottage, economy.

Yes!!

@ InvisibleStalke

Have you already finished your game? I would like to compare it with mine ( You followed a completely different route from mine).

No - its no further advanced than my last post. I am unstoppable for a spaceship win - already have most of the techs.

One interesting thing out of this game is that for the first time ever I am loving Environmentalism. The extra happy and health is very much appreciated.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

R_Rolo1,

Looking at our two games, it will be interesting to compare. I'll let you know my launch date.

I think the strategy either has to be:

1) Commit yourself to early optics and push relentlessly towards it.
2) Commit yourself to your economy and let the AI's find you.

Working on your economy and then going for Optics seems a waste as you won't get there first and you could have advanced your economy further.

The main thing I wished I had done differently in the early game was get an early GS for an academy in my capital. I didn't get my academy until around Optics.

Other than that I could probably have done better by either focussing more on a Diplomatic win (including nuclear diplomacy and a better choice of friends) or not pursuing diplomatic at all which would have given me more trading options and I could have skipped mass media and UN.

 

[r_rolo1]

I would leave the southern route alone - it doesn't get you faster to Democracy and the pressure for early Optics is gone now that the AI's have it. Go for Education, Liberalism and Democracy. (You will probably not win Liberalism - I didn't - but you still need to get some techs to trade and you need Democracy.

I suggested the southern route because of the economic buildings and of Merc ( you're already isolated...). I'm not sure that a hard beeline to Democracy would be advisable.

One interesting thing out of this game is that for the first time ever I am loving Environmentalism. The extra happy and health is very much appreciated.

Me too. That extra helps a lot ( I maintained a lot of forests ( for the bonus) so it was even better)

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I suggested the southern route because of the economic buildings and of Merc ( you're already isolated...). I'm not sure that a hard beeline to Democracy would be advisable.

I'd like to see the effect of forgoing the Optics race. At this point in the game we have only a few turns devoted to metal casting so forgoing this race and letting the AIs find us would be a good strategy to compare with the approaches we both took.

I am not sure that grocers and mercantilism will help us as much as universities. The problem is that we are simply a long way behind in tech and need to self-research to the point we can trade.

The main reason for going in the Education direction though is that we can get there through lightbulbing scientists which is pretty efficient. Since we don't have machinery then we can lightbulb philosophy, paper, education and liberalism. Its unlikely that we will win the race, but chances are fair that both education and liberalism could be traded to someone.

Liberalism lets us run free religion for +10% research which is a great help since we have no religion. Add +25% to research for the university and I think that will help a lot.

The science slider is fairly low right now - and we need to finish REXing in a hurry so it may go lower. That may make lightbulbing the most efficient form of research we have in the short term.

 

[willpax]

R_Rolo1,
I think the strategy either has to be:

1) Commit yourself to early optics and push relentlessly towards it.
2) Commit yourself to your economy and let the AI's find you.

Working on your economy and then going for Optics seems a waste as you won't get there first and you could have advanced your economy further.

I think this will probably go into the "lessons learned" section pretty much verbatim. Especially with the slow-starting cottage economy, it seems that you need to see the isolation as a chance to lay the foundations for an economic powerhouse post-liberalism (because you won't have a chance otherwise).

Some experiments for future games might include trying a civ that could mount an effective specialist economy, which shines exactly when one is isolated (although the lack of tech trading hurts that strategy, it might be a better way to REX), as well as a smaller opening landmass. Or does isolation nearly always mean that you will have a large area to spread out into?

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Usually I have had a decent sized landmass when isolated. The HC game was one of the smaller that I've seen.

 

[willpax]

Spoiler :

Themes for this round: guess who's coming to dinner, build and expand, and teching toward liberalism.

Tech pattern: alphabet-->paper-->education-->philosophy-->liberalism

Finished by 1532.

Guess who's coming to dinner? Ragnar, that bloodthirsty Taoist, comes in 1184. Mao gets the circumnavigation bonus in 1220. In 1238, we encounter the Hindu Mehmed--three civs, three different religions (although Mao doesn't have the shrine, the other two do for their faiths).

In 1280, we find Tokugawa, who has Mao's Buddhist shrine.

In 1304, we get our next great person: a merchant (thank you, Colossus!). With no galleon, a mission won't be happening, so we can either settle for the money and food or lightbulb machinery, which would mess up scientist lightbulbing on the liberalism track. At the moment, I was almost halfway through education anyway, and saw that I was about 50 turns away from another great person--I would already have liberalism by around that time, anyway. So I took the lightbulb, although a settled merchant is a wonderful thing.

1322: Japan asks for our help against the Chinese. Just what kind of help does he think we will provide? Vigorous cheerleading from our jungle filled shores? That same year, "a distant civilization" discovers Liberalism.

In 1364, we encounter Buddhist Julius Caesar and get an open borders agreement; with three civs, the Buddhist bloc needs to be reckoned with. Rome immediately demands our map as tribute. With the map out, I seel the same map to Tokugawa and Mao for 140 gold.

In 1442, I finish philosophy and head toward liberalism, with the tech slider down to 30% for profit and a time of 18-23 turns. During this stretch, several courthouses kick in to shave some time off of that.

In 1478, we meet Ramesses II. Look upon his works, ye mighty, and despair:

He's Christian, he's advanced, and he's been building lots of wonders.

In 1532, I discover liberalism and convert to free speech and free religion (the only advanced religious civic I have run). I've paused during the anarchy for an assessment.

Here's the (now filled in) continent:

I'm slowly cutting away the jungle with a new round of worker building, and most of my cities have some good room to grow. 14 cities puts me at the top in terms of land (although I am still last in terms of population). Here's the demographics chart:

Up to second in GNP and crop yield--this economy should grow quite nicely, although the tech gap is somewhat large.

Diplomatically, it seems that Ramesses, Tokugawa, and Caesar get along well, so it makes sense to try to placate that group.

Current question about teching seems to be the normal one at this stage: beeline to chemistry, astronomy, or democracy? Ramesses already has astronomy, but offers only money for resources. A democracy beeline could begin with printing press, which gives a cottage economy a bit of a boost and might provide some trade fodder. Hmmm.

Here's the save file:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Shaka_AD-1532.CivWarlordsSave

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I agree with printing press to democracy. You can lightbulb it if you get a GP in time and its good trading material. Your key to victory will be emancipation - getting those cottages into towns.

You can't rush to chemistry without going through gunpowder and engineering both of which you might be able to trade printing press for anyway if all the AIs don't have it yet - leaving you open to lightbulb chemistry after printing press.

If you can trade printing press for gunpowder and engineering, then you might be wise to go chemistry next hoping to trade it for nationalism and maybe even constitution. If you are behind the AI don't bother though - just head straight for democracy.

Astronomy would be nice, but you have a lot of techs to go and you are better off trading for these techs and researching techs the AIs don't have yet. The techs on the way to Astronomy won't help you catch up - and you really need to catch up.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

BTW - well done with the REX. The continent looks good and I think your science rate will be steadily climbing from here. If you are 2nd in GDP now just imagine where you will be in a few hundred years.

 

[r_rolo1]

@ willpax and lurkers

Spoiler :

Things are looking promissing. We filled the continent and the cottage spamming is looking promissing. When you get PP and Democracy your cottage economy will shine ( my bet is that you will pass the AI before the Apollo program, unless... ALC 15 ). A few regards:

Techs: Of the options you showed the Democracy beeline is IMHO the best move. We need cottage money ASAP and US helps a lot. And probably some civs are near of getting Demo and adopt Emancipation ( that can be a drag to you). But to beeline to Demo you'll need to be below the radar scope of the AI ( your move to FR was wise... you aren't the worst enemy of anyone). You can trade PP of the Ottoman guy and some more techs ( Philo + Education vs PP + Compass ( harbors) + Drama ( theaters... You'll need those when you pass to US) ) but trading with the lonely hindy guy may not be a good move.

Other civs: Two main concerns: Ragnar and Ramesses. Ragnar most surely has Rifling ( look at the power graph.. that sharp peak is unmistakeble ) and Ramesses has Sankore and Spiral Minaret ( Religion Economy) and he is Industrious; if he gets first to Apollo we may be in trouble because of the Space Elevator and of the Three Gorges Dam. We can only hope that their war could be a help to us. Just don't buddie with any of those.

Victories: Still the same as round 3: Space, Diplo ( I'm betting that Ramesses will build it), Conquest/Dom ( hard but maybe attainable ( we still need to see the world map)).

The hard part is done. We have a big empire with mature cottages, and they are starting to shine. Just don't get invaded ( in this game is easily avoidable because the outer world is quite fractured in religious terms, but not in terrain: Mao makes border with ceasar and Ramesses; Ceasar makes border with Mao, Ramesses and toku; Ramesses makes border with Mao, Ceasar, Toku and Ragnar; Ragnar makes border with Ramesses and and Toku; Toku makes border with Ceasar, Ramesses and Ragnar ( just look at the Close borders minus) Mehmed has no colse borders minus with anyone, but doesn't look to be isolated ( his tech level is too big for that); maybe he is in a nearby island or something like it. May is hard to diplo in this mess but is easy to not be the main target of the AI.

Offtopic: May I suggest traits for lonely heart 3? For me we should test one or two of this traits : Philosophical ( for the GPP bonus), Organized (for the cheap courthouses and Beaurocracy) and Charismatic (for the bonus ). Maybe combining two of them may be interesting : Frederick (Phi/Org) or Napoleon (Org/Cha). Both of them have another feature that we need to test: how to cope the barb problem without a good early UU ( like we had so far)