Looking for advice moving up the difficulties

PurpleMentat

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I'm having a lot of trouble adapting to higher difficulties with this mod. I'm working on Immortal now, and thus far can only do well with Carthage. I tried Babylon, settled three cities, got a ton of Academies fast, and was second to last in Literacy in Medieval. I just don't know where I'm going wrong or what I should be tweaking.

So far my general path has been to build a shrine, get two settlers out before turn 50, and try not to be last on troops. I tech for the luxuries around me after Pottery, steal workers from city-states, and get myself a worker ASAP. My cities are set to production focus, I lock my citizens to high yield tiles when they grow, and I build the buildings they claim to need.

My prefered policy tree is Progress. It seems to have nice bonuses for both Wide and Tall, with a preference towards Wide. Tradition feels to Specialist focused, before I have the population or happiness to take advantage of this. Authority was fun on lower difficulties, but I'm finding myself severely out-teched now (just hitting Medieval as others hit Rennaissance). Do I need to dip into more than one tree?

There are so many paths and options that I'm having trouble analyzing what I'm screwing up. In Vanilla the path is pretty set in stone, and I can hold my own with the micro I'm using here. Something just isn't sinking in, and I'd love to know what I'm missing.

Thanks in advance!
 
Initial build order is scout, shrine. Or buy the scout if Carthage.

For religion, sacred path (if the terrain is suitable) because you get faith and culture in the 2 rings around your city even if they're not in your borders yet. For follower beliefs take the ones that give 1 science and 1 culture per 2 citizens. Indirectly, these are happiness beliefs as they passively counter illiteracy and boredom. Teching toward theology is important because St. Basil's is the "must have" wonder so that you can reform with Jesuit education.

I take the following policies: progress, piety, industry, 3 in order (Nationalization is the target), Rationalism.

Expand to 6 - 8 cities and more if you have the tech lead. Wide is the way to go in this game.
Trade luxuries 1 for 1 + gpt as needed. The AI will trade its sole copy (unlike the base game) so take advantage of that. I play the game on pangea, low sea level.

Nationalization is the "must have" policy. No fooling around waiting for trade routes to complete. Trade routes at this point in the game can last over 100 turns! (Is that a feature or a bug, I wonder).

The science corp. is the 1 to get, but 2-Kay is good too.
 
I play/win on deity epic speed, so here's my thoughts.

Sometimes you want a scout first, even if you have to hard build him. Factors include map type, size, and local terrain. The other variable is pantheon and religion. Do I have a good area for a sweet pantheon (like 3 wheat tiles for sun god), or am I going to have to settle for some crappy one that won't be enough to get me a religion? And, do I even want one this game? If my starting area dictates that I can't take advantage of a big +faith pantheon, I'm not going to bother racing for one.

  • Map has Islands or continents, usually skip scout.
  • Large map, always build scout.
  • Bad terrain, usually build scout.
  • Can take advantage of a good pantheon, build shrine
  • Have a UB Shrine, always build shrine.
  • If pantheon will be Uber (+4 faith in Capitol), build scout since pantheon will quickly help catch-up.
  • Always ignore production bonus from settling when deciding (it's gambler's fallacy)
I know it's contradictory, but I try to weigh those against each other and pick the most likely option of scout vs shrine. And lastly, even if you build a shrine first, on large maps with bad terrain I'll still build a scout second (since the movement bonus can make up for lost time), and always remember that a scout is more than just a ruin grabber, it's also a city location and a civ finder (for trading luxuries).

Brb writing this from bed, going to get coffee then talk about the other things.
 
If you build city on a forest, it will automatically chop it, making a 1 turn scout build in the beginning for example ;)
 
If you build city on a forest, it will automatically chop it, making a 1 turn scout build in the beginning for example ;)

Yes, but it also makes for a 50% finished shrine which can make the difference between picking a good pantheon or picking from the scraps. That's why I called it a gambler's fallacy; you should never assume that forest settled means scout 100% of the time. This is referring to higher difficulties (in this case deity) where your early choices have a large impact on what you can and can't do.
 
Yes, but it also makes for a 50% finished shrine which can make the difference between picking a good pantheon or picking from the scraps. That's why I called it a gambler's fallacy; you should never assume that forest settled means scout 100% of the time. This is referring to higher difficulties (in this case deity) where your early choices have a large impact on what you can and can't do.

Turn 1 scout can lead to a production-ruin for a free shrine as well :D
 
Turn 1 scout can lead to a production-ruin for a free shrine as well :D

True, or nothing, or a crude map, or +exp on your scout (not an upgrade but that freaking rotten +exp). Or yes, free pop, free tech, free gold. Because you can't be sure what you'll get (without save scum), I personally weigh the risk-reward as I outlined in my first post. Also the +production ruin only gives about half of a shrine, not a full one. The gamble is up to you. I'm not sure what difficulty you play on Funak, but since the OP is asking for higher difficulty strategy, I'm trying to point out the "always works on lower difficulty" is a poor reference for high ones.

(And no I'm not trying to sound elite, and no matter your difficulty setting your opinion is valid, Funak. Sorry if I come across poorly)
 
True, or nothing, or a crude map, or +exp on your scout (not an upgrade but that freaking rotten +exp). Or yes, free pop, free tech, free gold. Because you can't be sure what you'll get (without save scum), I personally weigh the risk-reward as I outlined in my first post. Also the +production ruin only gives about half of a shrine, not a full one. The gamble is up to you. I'm not sure what difficulty you play on Funak, but since the OP is asking for higher difficulty strategy, I'm trying to point out the "always works on lower difficulty" is a poor reference for high ones.

(And no I'm not trying to sound elite, and no matter your difficulty setting your opinion is valid, Funak. Sorry if I come across poorly)

I wasn't the one suggesting the scout, I'm just saying that it could lead to the same result. I would probably still go for the scout, because gambling is fun.

Also no one mentioned always works on lower difficulty, and honestly this thing makes no difference between difficulties.
It does however vary heavily on mapsize, and since I'm usually playing on standard or small maps, getting a scout out earlier is a lot more important, and getting a shrine out earlier is a lot less important (because the good pantheons don't run out)
 
I play on deity/epic mostly on fractal maps, always build a scout first, a shrines comes nowhere near as good as a early scout, if you find a good natural wonder near you whit said scout rush a settler, if you are playing a faith based civ rush stonehenge, otherwise ignore faith unless you have an amazing source of faith from a pantheon, in that case build a shrine second.

The amount of cities is based around the land that scout revealed i have won games where I build 4 cities and games where I build 8, it all depends on the terrain, sometimes you can find good choke points and block of AI from a good amount of land.

You will be behind almost everyone most of the game, that is normal and part of the challenge since you can easily win wen the ai is on equal footing in lower difficulties, if you want to get ahead a war is mandatory either build a super army and strike whoever is first place whit some help from other civs, either by bribing or by asking them to declare war whit you, or just conquer your neighbor.

The biggest key to winning on deity is knowing what victory type you want to win, every civ favors a victory type and if you min-max your choices towards that goal the only way the AI can win is by attacking you while you're unprepared.

By the way I find the authority opener to be worth getting early since the harder the difficulty the stronger are the barbarians , and authority is a good tree after progress if you're going for domination, since not a single one of the medieval era policies helps whit war, I don't play "wide" so for me the best yield is food by far and I try to get all the population in every city, one good thing about tradition for example is that if you lock the engineer palace right always you will get an super fast great engineer that is pretty much a free key wonder or a super boost to production, but yeah if you're struggling whit early game progress is the way to go since tradition is more late game focused.

P.S: I have changed the max xp scouts get from exploring from 45 to 60 allowing me to get scouting 3 for the extra movement, before I played whit said change I would get 2 scouts because that is how good I think revealing the map is, if you play on big or huge maps 2 scouts is a must.
 
P.S: I have changed the max xp scouts get from exploring from 45 to 60 allowing me to get scouting 3 for the extra movement, before I played whit said change I would get 2 scouts because that is how good I think revealing the map is, if you play on big or huge maps 2 scouts is a must.

Can I ask where do you change this?
 
Can I ask where do you change this?

C:\Users\"Your Username"\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\Community Patch\Core Files\Core Values\CoreDefines.sql

Open whit notepad and change BALANCE_SCOUT_XP_MAXIMUM to 60.

I am on win10 by the way.
 
It's good practice to pay attention to which techs the AI has. It can mean the difference between competition for a wonder, not even trying, or knowing you can safely slow build a wonder with no worries. It's not perfect and you must use your judgment, but it's overall very useful.

For those who don't know, for every Civ that you've met that has researched a technology, it becomes cheaper. For example, you have tradition, and so does Siam. You can research mathematics and try for the hanging gardens. Is it worth your time? Can you beat Siam? You check the tech costs (hover over them in the tech tree) and see Sailing costs 450, (numbers made up for example) writing is 428(1 civ you know has it), bronze working is 402(because most AIs are military tech zealots), and Mathematics is 450. Guess what, you are researching math and getting a wonder.

With this knowledge, you can choose to aim for the techs that nobody has and go for wonders or take advantage of units/buildings that others don't have, or you can choose to ride the wake of the AI and grab discount techs. This is possible even in vanilla and doesn't require any mods.

However, this only applies to civs that you've met. You don't get any discounts from unknown civs and you can't tell what they've got either. This is one reason exploring and meeting civs is so important. This is also why you can't rely on this all the time, unless you've met all or most civs. But when you see that Shaka has just hit medieval, and the only tech that's discounted is chivalry, expect incoming knights!
 
Thank you for all the advice so far, especially the part about the tech discount and how to watch for it.

I feel like I have a pretty decent start, but I flounder in the mid-game. Others start snowballing, and I kind of plod along slow and steady. I think the next step is to try a few games and see what works. Focus on population, focus on production, what's the minimum military I can get by with, that sort of thing.
 
The mid-game is tricky; you've survived or even powered through the early stuff, you've got some cities, you've managed to defend yourself, and then... now what? The answer comes a bit later after you feel like you didn't really accomplish anything, and you notice that one or two AI is super-runaway. Not just because of a few techs, but they're in a seriously good spot and they're going to continue until they probably win. That's the problem with mid-game.

So how do you deal with it? Once you've gotten a few cities up and survived the initial stuff, say, around Medieval, you need to take stock.

Military
  • Am I going to attack someone?
  • Do I have an aggressive OR crazy neighbor (looking at you, Maria)?
  • Does an AI that I might battle have units that are 1+ tier (or UU) higher than mine?
Yes? Build more units. Have plenty of ranged, and at least a few Melee units for soaking and a mounted unit or four to help pillage/capture/OHKO archers.

Economy
A common trap of the mid-game is the feeling that, now that things are smoothing out, you can finally build that big backlog of buildings you've been meaning to get. While you do want some, you still have to focus on priorities even if it means sacrificing things in the short term. (I'm not including things like a Monument/Well/Shrine which is probably one of the first things you build anyway)

Must Haves - All Cities
  • Market - So much free money, so little build time. Perfect!
  • Library - Fill that scientist slot ASAP, always.
  • Writer's Guild x3 - Not just in your highest pop cities, but ones that have actual growth potential as well.
  • Aquaduct - Only 1/gpt and the sooner you build them, the more powerful their long-term effect.

Situational Must-Haves
  • Stone Works - If you can build it. Super cheap, more production.
  • Stable - Expensive, so only if you have 2+ pastures to make it count, or if you're going to build a dozen mounted UUs.
  • Forge - Always if you have Iron (and copper?) in that city. Otherwise less important, unless you need a workshop.
  • University - ASAP in cities that have forest or jungle, less important otherwise (I know it has a GP slot but if it isn't a priority then you just have to wait).
  • Workshop - If your city can work 3+ forest/jungle tiles (due to camps, lumbermills, or just blank tiles). Especially important to combo with the University in this kind of city. Otherwise, low priority.
  • Harbor - Only if you can actually benefit from it. Will it connect two continents and give you 2+ city connections? Build it! You have an 8 pop island city with -2 isolated penalty? Boo-hoo, too bad, back of the line!
  • Colosseum - Its most important feature is "Gives +2 Production to Barracks/Forge/Armory". If your city has any of those, get it (it's cheap), otherwise no.
That's it all the way to the start of the Industrial Era. No, really. Not counting UBs or Temples with max Piety, nothing else helps you setup for the oncoming storm. Yes, you'll build the other stuff but not until later. So now that you've got your shopping list, what do you actually do in order to not regret 100 turns of nothing?

#1 - What's the AI doing?
Your immediate concern are your neighbors. Yes, Russia is in first place and ahead by 8 techs, but she's got a buffer of 2 civs that you can't get through. That means ignore her for now but make a note of what that super AI is trying to steer towards. Meanwhile, figure out what you're going to do with the guy next door. Either buddy up or smash him.

#2 - I built my priorities, now what?
Start by getting more workers and just go crazy on all the things. Make sure you are maxed out on trade routes. Build some settlers or pioneers for those juicy island cities or to grab some more land, but don't build them in your Capitol.

#3 - I did all that NOW WHAT?
What's your plan? Think long term and look at your competition.

I want to believe! You've got a religion? Does Ethiopia have a mega-22 city religion while yours sits at 5? Give up on that plan. Otherwise now is a good time to grab some temples and setup missionaries/inquisitors. Again, only if you've got a religion and beliefs that have a big impact from lots of +faith or +followers.

I want to smash things! Get knights ASAP and borrow a few dozen horses if you have to. Let's see - available immediately at the start of Medieval? Yes! "Cheap" compared to later units? Yes! 4 move? Yes! 24 CS, hey where have I heard that, oh wait, Musketmen have 24 CS too, are an era later, and cost +40% more. Okay, sure melee have cover and defensive terrain blah blah, but your knights have flanking and the movement to jump in for a flank and then back out, or even attack and back out. Ouch, my knight is down to 30 HP at the start of my turn! So what? Pillage your current tile, move and pillage the next one, and oh wow you still have 1 movement left. Sweet! Also some of your Knights want medic. Also - Cannons. Sweet, Sweet Cannons. Yes Please.

I want shinies! Focus on your Trade Route cities first to maximize gold (Caravanasaries etc), and then worry about things like banks. Money is only as good as the stuff you spend it on, so if you're making it rain then you should invest in a bigger army or helping that high-pop-low-production city to invest some buildings they need. Seriously, if you're sitting on 2k gold in the Renaissance, you're doing it wrong. Spend Spend Spend!

#4 - Help! My scientists are still trying to invent fire while the Dutch can into space!
Yeah, the Dutch are awesome. If you have your other priorities under control, now and only now should you worry about tech as a real priority. The real key to science is population. The biggest numbers don't come from the +3 science a building will give you, and only some of it comes from the specialist slot. The biggest boost is from population and all the "Get X Yield for every X Citizen" buildings. If you have to tech up, build up.

Keep in mind that each city including puppets increases your tech costs, so if you capture make sure they're worth it (or burn baby burn!), and if you want new cities, make sure that you can jump-start them to help them earn their keep quickly (building investment, trade routes, and/or workers).

"But I literally want to win a space victory!" Okay fine, but my answer is still the same. You need a large population to probably convert into soylent green as fuel if you want to go to space. If you're really behind, snatch up a few cheap techs that your AI civs already know since they're cheaper. You can build wide and win this way, but make sure you're building wide-and-tall at the same time. In most all cases, your victory isn't going to happen because you decided to pick one in the last 30 turns of the game. It's best decided in mid-game and adjusted as necessary, but this is the time to point your compass and go.

#5 - So important it gets its own number.
Before you research Scientific Theory, do whatever you can to be ready to build Public Schools. That means Universities in all cities regardless of forest/jungle, building up a reserve of faith (if you have Jesuit Reformation), and building up a large bank account (so you can invest for quick builds). Yes, I said don't sit on money, but this is the exception. Make flat gold trades from the AI if you have to, screw your GPT.

Why? You haven't had a Science-per-4 citizens building since the library. Back then, you probably had 3-6 pop in your cities. Now, Public Schools are going up in your cities with 10-20 population. The effect is staggering! As soon as you reach the end of the Industrial Era, the tech costs bloat like crazy. I've tested it before too, and getting late schools is a deathblow. Sure, early Industrial, they might make 8 turn techs cost 7. Big whoop. But by the time you get into the Modern Bloat Monster, those schools can make the difference between 14 turns and 10 turns. The bigger the tech cost, the more every bit of science matters. Yes, sometimes you get more science and you say "oh, same number of turns", but remember you get beaker overflow to the next tech, so it still adds up and saves turns somewhere down the line.

It doesn't have to be your first tech, but it darn well better not come any later than your third tech, at most. Admit it, Himjei Castle, the Leaning Tower, and Chicken Pizza were all built by the AI on turn 2 and you never had a shot. You already have Knights, so gunpowder cannons are about as low as you want to dip, barring tech breakthroughs or spies. Stick to the extremely boring top of the tech tree and go go go. The only time I ever delay SciTheory is if I have a shot at building Slater Mill in Steam Power.

#5.5 - So good that I had to edit this in!
Did I mention that Slater Mill is one of the most OP wonders in the game (at this stage at least, considering the investment-to-return ratio)? +5 production is almost a mini-Ironworks. +2 coal can actually matter! That means two more factories later, or two ungodly overpowered seaports. Unless you're playing on some hyped-up resource game, even with a large territory you'll often find yourself sitting on very little coal. It matters.

If you've got a lot of coastal cities with good sea resources, that coal for seaports is stupid OP. You also get a free factory in that city (4 GPT and 1 coal saved) which gives you another +3 production and +1Production-per-4-citizens! And you get that factory two techs early! Dear God, that thing is just insane. Oh, and if you're playing as England then this is the Number One Wonder in the whole game for you. It does everything I said plus gives you your UB factory which is 1Production-per-2-citizens (2x better than regular factory) making it a contender for the most powerful UB in the game. Getting it early can send your production (and thus units/buildings) skyrocketing while everyone else is playing with Lego©.

#6 - Wrapping it up
Mid-game is the foundation on which you build your end-game. If you have to stop a runaway AI, you have to setup your tools in the mid-game. If you have to catch-up, mid-game is the time. The reason mid-game screws people over is simply lack of a plan. Analyze what advantages you have, what the AI has, and what you can do to trump them. That's all. Analyze, plan, win. :king:
 
Theres a lot of good advice in this thread. If i had anything to add i'd say that i've noticed buying units is a MUCH better bang for your buck production-wise than investing in buildings- because of this, i almost never build any units until much later game but instead just spend my cash on them. (This is an intentional feature i presume got looked at when the "investing" feature was added, but of course spending on units still just gives them immediately)

Speaking of being sure to spend your money, why does the AI always have so much money on hand hehe. They need a financial advisor to tell them "spend spend spend!" =)
 
callmewoof has covered most of it really nicely.

I would re-emphasise that, while it is easy to do, don't forget about gold. This doesn't just go for internal things, but you can also use it in diplomacy to get all sorts of good stuff.

Imo the end-game starts at corporation. The corporation is like a super-religion, and the one you get should pretty much dictate which victory condition you pursue.
 
callmewoof, that list of "must-have buildings" and your detailed advice about the midgame is exactly what I needed. I had a general idea that this is what I needed to be doing, but you probably saved me ten games of trial-and-error with your write-up.
 
really nice post, kudos!

A few thoughts from me:

1) If you are doing well on literacy when entering the renaissance era, there is a little trick you can do. Rush Leaning Tower of Pisa with a great engineer, take a free great engineer, go for Red Fort, use the great engineer, take a free great engineer. You now have 2 decent wonders and you still have your GE.

2) Trading horses and iron - if you're selling 6 iron/horses you can easily get 20 GPT worth of stuff. If you're trading in 3 increments of 2 you're getting at most 3 GPT for each.

3) The religion finisher that gives +1 culture/science for every 6 followers in foreign cities is by far the strongest one if you can get a good religion going (e.g. first or second religion, piety, etc.). The second best is the one that gives 1 happy for every 2 cities. If you manage to snag the culture/science beliefs, like callmewoof recommended, you're going to have a lot of leftover faith for spreading the religion, and what's even better, once you spread it to the AI, they won't have anything to buy, so they are going to start spreading it for you. This effect also makes veneration pretty good, if you can't get the science/culture beliefs. The production/food per follower are still better than the faith buildings.

4) This one is strictly personal opinion, not a fact, and I know that many people will disagree with me.

The Tradition tree is by far the weakest of the 3. The free engineer slot early on is pretty good for rushing a wonder or two, but I find that even for civs like Korea or Egypt tradition is a bad choice. I used to think that Progress is slightly better than Authority, but I'm not too sure. The thing is, the AI and city states get such a big growth bonus, that with Authority often time you don't need to build any settlers, and the first city you conquer can be better than your capitol. As for the progress, the bonus for every citizen and every building is insanely strong if you manage to get a good empire going. Both Progress and Authority have a much easier time of getting huge cities than Tradition.
 
4) This one is strictly personal opinion, not a fact, and I know that many people will disagree with me.

The Tradition tree is by far the weakest of the 3. The free engineer slot early on is pretty good for rushing a wonder or two, but I find that even for civs like Korea or Egypt tradition is a bad choice. I used to think that Progress is slightly better than Authority, but I'm not too sure. The thing is, the AI and city states get such a big growth bonus, that with Authority often time you don't need to build any settlers, and the first city you conquer can be better than your capitol. As for the progress, the bonus for every citizen and every building is insanely strong if you manage to get a good empire going. Both Progress and Authority have a much easier time of getting huge cities than Tradition.

I really don't like tradition that much either, but it is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. First of all you're usually really safe on gold when going for tradition. While both other trees struggle heavily with the early economy, tradition usually does fine (not really sure why to be honest :D).
Second, tradition got a policy that halves the foodcost of specialists in the capital. That pretty much makes the entire tree viable, as the ability to grow while working specialists is awesome.
 
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