Losing money on Fundamentalism

Discussion in 'Civ2 - General Discussions' started by Brandyn, May 21, 2018.

  1. Brandyn

    Brandyn Chieftain

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    Hey guys just a quick question- I'm losing money with a fundamentalism government and am unsure why. I am playing on Prince difficulty right now and am around the year 1900 A.D. Any idea's as to why? My previous game was on Warlord and by the time I was at the year 1900 I had around 30,000 dollars. On that same previous game I had my taxes at 20%, science at 80% and luxury on 0. Right now I'm all of a sudden having to put my tax at 70% and my science at 30% just to keep from losing money.

    Any and all advice/information would be much appreciated. Thank you.
     
  2. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    It is hard to diagnose this kind of problem without seeing copies of the saved games in question. Did you miss Michelangelo's Chapel or JS Bach's Cathedral?

    It sounds like your gameplay could be improved somewhat. The Stories and Tales forum has a large number of succession games that were played years ago, which you might want to check out. There are frequent saved games and people discuss strategy.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-level-succession-game.400687/
    is probably a good place to start.
     
  3. Brandyn

    Brandyn Chieftain

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    How can I send you a copy of the saved game?

    Thanks for the feed back.
     
  4. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Just attach the files to your post. There is an "upload a file" button beside the "post reply" button.
     
  5. Brandyn

    Brandyn Chieftain

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    Let me know if this works.
     

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  6. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    The most obvious improvement to your game would be to place roads on all grassland and plains tiles, before irrigation. Each road give +1 trade (to be converted to science, taxes, and luxuries) to those squares. The next improvement I advise is to not improve terrain that won't be used for many years to come. You have many cities that have almost all tiles irrigated which are size 8 or less. Flin Flon and Hay River are the most egregious examples. They won't be able to use all that terrain for ages, and irrigating hills almost never worth the time.

    Let's take a closer look at Hay River. Hay River has a Marketplace, Bank and Stock Exchange. These buildings together cost you 8 gold. Together, they serve to increase the tax base of Hay River from 1 gold to 2 gold. Sell these improvements and you not only get cash now, but you have a net increase in your per turn cash flow. Hay River also has a library, University and is set to start production on a research facility. Since the city is not producing any science "beakers," these improvements have no value, but cost you money each turn.

    Hay River has a sewer system, which costs 2 gold per turn. At 2 surplus food I calculate that you have almost 380 turns before you need that sewer system.
     
  7. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I received this as a PM, but I prefer to discuss this here so others can see and weigh in.

    I take this to mean that you do not fully understand the city window and the information it provides.

    The "resource map" tells you what tiles your citizens are working, and what they are producing on that tile. If you have 5 citizens, they can work 5 tiles. You can change the tile they are working by clicking on a producing tile to create a specialist (a citizen producing luxuries, taxes, or science directly, click on him to change between specialists) and then click on an unworked square to return a specialist to the field.

    Each citizen produces some amount of food, shields, and trade arrows, based on the square he is working. Squares that no citizen is working produce nothing. The "City Resources" section gives you a summary of each turn's production. All the food produced in a turn is collected and fed to citizens, 2 per citizen. Any surplus is added to the "Food Storage" box. Your city grows when the box is full. A food deficit deducts from the Food Storage.

    The next line tells you how many trade "arrows" your city produces, split into corrupted arrows and arrows that are allocated between Taxes, Science, and Luxuries, depending on your tax rate. Ocean squares produce trade arrows, as do plains, grassland and desert that have roads. Some specials produce arrows too. Caravans also create "trade routes" which give additional arrows each turn.

    The line below that tells how much taxes, luxuries, and science "beakers" your city produces in a turn, after applying marketplaces, libraries, temples (under fundamentalism), etc.

    For example, Newmarket produces 4 trade arrows, split into 3 taxes and 1 beaker. Additionally, it produces 2 "tithes" because it has a temple. So total tax production is five per turn. A Marketplace in Newmarket will increase Newmarket taxes by 50%, rounded down, therefore giving 2 extra gold. Therefore, the marketplace under construction will give a net benefit of 1 gold per turn after paying its maintenance cost. A marketplace and bank together give +100%, so adding a bank would increase revenues by 3 gold, just enough to pay maintenance. A stock exchange would lose money.

    Moving a Newmarket worker from grassland to ocean increases trade in Newmarket from 4 (+ 2 tithes) to 6(+2 tithes), split into 4(+2) taxes and 2 (-1 for fundy penalty) science. A market would then produce 3 extra coins per turn.

    The last line tells of shields produced (after factory/power plant bonuses) and how they are divided between support, waste and production. Production is added to the production box each turn.

    Generally speaking, you shouldn't be improving tiles that are not already being worked or will be worked very soon. Similarly, don't build structures that you don't need or won't pay for themselves.

    Once you have mastered your city window, we will teach you about caravans and freight.
     
  8. Brandyn

    Brandyn Chieftain

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    Again thanks for taking the time to help. I started a new game and accidentally saved over that game FFS. I have been reading other strategies online and seen one that said to build roads all around the cities and to only irrigate on the squares that are being used. Is that true?

    Would also like for you to explain trading. I have no idea what im doing there.

    Here is my new game
     

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  9. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    The same for irrigation, only build roads on squares you will use in the near future (or to connect cities). Your preference should be for shield grassland first, since those are already the best squares to work.

    When you set your government to republic or democracy, you can celebrate via We Love the Consul/President Day and have your city grow by 1 population point each turn as long as there is a food surplus of at least 1. Since Republic/Democracy is the best way to play (once you learn how), best practice is usually to not irrigate at all. Cities can usually get big enough on the ocean and grassland, so settler time is better spent building new cities and making roads for them.

    Since Republic and Democracy are tougher governments to manage, when you start practicing with them you may find it best to go one difficulty level lower while you learn.

    Trade works as follows: Build a caravan (not food caravan) and deliver it to a city. You get an immediate payment of gold and science, and an ongoing trade route. Payment increases with the number of arrows (after corruption) in the source and destination city, and with the distance between the two cities. The ongoing trade route gets a x2 bonus if it is with a foreign civ, and there is a highway/airport bonus.

    The delivery bonus is modified by the following factors:
    x2 if the source and destination are on different continents
    x2 if the destination city belongs to a different civ
    x2-4 (depending on commodity) if the caravan commodity is demanded
    x1.5 if source has highway, x2 if both have highway
    x1.5 if both have airport on same continent, x2 if different continent

    So, you want to send caravans from high trade cities to offshore foreign cities as far away as possible, preferably delivering to cities that have high base trade trade or demand the caravan commodity. Before the delivery, re-arrange production in the source city to maximize trade arrows, and reset the production immediately after.
     
  10. Brandyn

    Brandyn Chieftain

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    I'm finding the resource map a lot harder to understand than the trading. I don't fully understand the tax and science output. How do I know if I should build a library or a marketplace? How do I know if I should continue to upgrade them? Or even at all?
     
  11. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

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    I'm sure Prof. Garfield will be able to explain this more thoroughly & sorry for jumping in to the conversation, but I'll have a crack at answering.

    Tax depends on how many trade arrows your workers are producing in the city screen and what your tax rate is set at. The higher the tax rate, the more trade arrows are allocated to taxes (producing gold). If you up the science rate then more trade arrows will be converted into trade beakers which accumulate in the bar in your Science Advisor screen. Increasing the luxury rate will convert more trade arrows into luxuries to keep your people happy.

    The tax rate will take into account any improvements you have, most of which will cost one gold or more per turn (you can check this in the Civilopedia). You need to ensure that the effects of the improvement will cover/justify the cost in gold. It is possible that an improvement can have a negative net effect if its upkeep in gold doesn't cover it's effects.

    For example, building the stock exchange when the city is small and not producing many trade arrows would not be beneficial as it will cost several gold every turn, but it's effects will produce less taxes & luxuries. In a large, well developed city with plenty of trade arrows a Stock Exchange should more than cover the upkeep costs.

    Some improvements require upkeep but don't help generate any income. Think City Walls & Barracks. So if your economy isn't sufficiently developed, building lots of these can put you into a negative cash flow & when your treasury runs dry the game will begin selling improvements (at half the cost it took to build them) to cover the costs.

    To get a city working well you need to make sure that it has a good balance of food, shields & trade arrows. All three can be boosted by developing the land with your Settlers, but these terrain improvements will only come into effect if the square is worked (in the city screen). As PG says, there's no point irrigating en squares for a city with only three workers as seven of the irrigated squares will not be exploited.

    When it comes to Tax, working special resources like gold will boost the number of trade arrows significantly and these can be converted into tax, science or luxuries depending on your priorities. Early on in the game a few extra trade arrows can make a big difference to your science rate. Try founding a city near a mountain with gold, then check the difference to your science rate when you set a worker to work on the gold resource, as opposed to having them work a grassland square. You should see the speed of your science research boosted significantly. However, working this square instead of farming will slow the growth of your city. It's all a balancing act.

    When a city is size five you can take one of your people off of the farm or out of the mine & set them as a specialist tax collector, scientist or entertainer. Try swapping between them and you will see your tax/science/luxuries values alter in the middle bar (if I remember correctly) of the city screen.

    I would recommend building a library if you have perhaps four science beakers produced in the city per turn. The 50% bonus will increase your cities science beaker production to six. If your city is producing only one science beaker per turn the 50% bonus (rounded down I think) will give you no bonus at all, but you will still have to pay the gold upkeep of the Library, so a big net loss.

    Similarly, a marketplace should be built when the city has enough tax & luxury per turn for it's bonus to take effect on. A granary will work as long as you are producing a surplus of food to make it worthwhile (when the city grows, half the food box will remain full - quite a potent bonus).

    I'm not an expert at the early game and I have often ignored the above advice myself. Prof. Garfield is definitely the man to tutor you on the art. I just thought I could help explain the city screen. Try altering the workers production and see the effect it has on things like your tax rate and the values on the city screen. Some of it is a little abstract, but when you see the relationships between trade arrows and tax/luxury/science all will become clear :)
     
  12. Brandyn

    Brandyn Chieftain

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    Thank you guys both so much for the information. I feel like I really understand it now.
     
  13. McMonkey

    McMonkey ----Evertonian---- SLeague Staff

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    It's an aspect of the game I have not paid a lot of attention to over the years, having mostly played scenarios that skip the early part of the game were getting these things right it essential. I believe Prof. Garfield is a bit of an expert on this from his involvement in Succession Games &/or Game of the Month, both of which put a lot of focus on being as efficient with every move as possible. I'm finding out to my cost how important this is in a multiplayer game I'm currently engaged in on the Scenario League forum. It's something I'm keen to improve on. I've been playing Civ2 for over twenty years now & I'm still learning! :D
     

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