Lost Eden development thread

[Kilkakon]

A positive POPULATION score reduces the amount of population that a base can have without an aquaduct. A negative POPULATION score increases the amount of population a base can have without an aquaduct. Morgan has 3, Lal has -2.

INTEREST, 0 is equal to +1 gold in every base.

Let's go for an ECONOMY bonus for now.

And as for post 200... man I didn't expect that I would get this far hey! Glory to God.

 

[vyeh]

A positive POPULATION score reduces the amount of population that a base can have without an aquaduct. A negative POPULATION score increases the amount of population a base can have without an aquaduct. Morgan has 3, Lal has -2.

Let's try POPULATION, 2.

INTEREST, 0 is equal to +1 gold in every base.

Let's go for an ECONOMY bonus for now.

Sounds good.

 

[Kilkakon]

Let's try POPULATION, 2.



Sounds good.

Okay then I'll add those now and run some tests on the lappy in a few moments after I have got myself organised.

I hope to get a lot of work done today if possible... I'm a bit stressed as I am a bit behind.

 

[Kilkakon]

Sorry for the double post if it is a problem.

Here are the results of today's play test, with my notes and comments.

Fallen never got to Aquaducts, Realm never got Christianity. Protectors wiped out by Adventurers.

Everybody but Realm, Rakis and Protectors started on top of each other. Oblivion pinned to just three cities, CyndaTech leads due to superior production, followed by Protectors/Rakis as they were left alone. Oblivion never got to Aquaducts either.

CyndaTech, Adventurers, Protectors and Oblivion are quite close together but not as bad as last time. Others are on their own. Realm starts on Uranium flats, which is the only reason they are able to compete.

Oblivion boxed in again. Not sure why Tristan did so well. Most people were able to grow by themselves.

Oblivion caught up in an early war with Adventurers. Didn't lose any bases but only had 2 size 5 bases for no apparent reason. Realm doing okay as they were left alone.

Everybody but Realm and CyndaTech together again. Oblivion landed on Garland Crater though so he ICSed a bit, but still had a huge number of pods walking about doing nothing as usual. Realm was fine as they were left alone.

Oblivion finally on his own is able to grow to be on parity with the pack. Only just got the tech for Aquaducts on turn 150 though! Darrus and Saig lead way ahead as they have grown more and have large armies.

A pretty even affair as everybody started in the top hemisphere. Adventurers on a tiny island, same for CyndaTech but they managed to get a few seabases going. Rakis was more than twice the size of everybody. Oblivion, unsurprisingly, never got a city over size 5.

Oblivion had a decent start but as usual fails from having too many colony pods doing nothing and cities that can't grow. Realm completely surrounded by Seafoam. Protectors and Adventurers grew when it counted.

Oblivion finally is far away from neighbours, which means that he can grow without being hemmed in by enemy borders. Still can't figure out how badly he needs Aquaducts though. Edge was cramped so she ICSed.

CyndaTech and Adventurers rocking pretty hard. Oblivion has been almost wiped out by the CyndaTech.

I have been removing the Monsoon Jungle every time.

My thoughts is that Oblivion has been really cut down majorly -- probably too much I think. Really the only limits to his power are how close his neighbours are and how much he can grow before he meets them -- if he lands in close priority to another player he fails pretty hard. Same for Realm -- the only way they can survive is if they can expand without any fear of bumping into anybody. Most of Realm's dominance would be in the technology department, due to the extra trade. Adventurers, CyndaTech, Rakis and Seafoam seem to be on parity with each other, Protectors tend to get the short end of the stick but can be dominant if given a break.

 

[vyeh]

My thoughts is that Oblivion has been really cut down majorly -- probably too much I think. Really the only limits to his power are how close his neighbours are and how much he can grow before he meets them -- if he lands in close priority to another player he fails pretty hard. Same for Realm -- the only way they can survive is if they can expand without any fear of bumping into anybody. Most of Realm's dominance would be in the technology department, due to the extra trade.

Note that this is a function of map size. If you were playing on a huge map, the chances of landing next to another faction is reduced. I assume you are using random maps (with the Monsoon Jungle removed). Are you setting all the values to average (rainfall, erosion, ocean coverage)?

Adventurers, CyndaTech, Rakis and Seafoam seem to be on parity with each other, Protectors tend to get the short end of the stick but can be dominant if given a break.

What are the current stats for Protectors?

 

[Kilkakon]

I have been playing on random Huge maps and removing the jungle manually. I mean just if he lands by himself on one side of the world with the others on the other that helps him out a lot.

As for Protectors:
+25% DEFENCE: {Generations of experience in defending temples}
+2 PLANET: {Devoted to promoting native growth}
-2 INDUSTRY: {Reluctant to produce material goods}
-1 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
+1 Food in vine squares
{May not value Wealth}

Can you see any other trends in the graphs yourself?

 

[vyeh]

I have been playing on random Huge maps and removing the jungle manually. I mean just if he lands by himself on one side of the world with the others on the other that helps him out a lot.

Is he aggressive?

As for Protectors:
+25% DEFENCE: {Generations of experience in defending temples}
+2 PLANET: {Devoted to promoting native growth}
-2 INDUSTRY: {Reluctant to produce material goods}
-1 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
+1 Food in vine squares
{May not value Wealth}

Maybe -2 INDUSTRY is too much. Let's try -1 INDUSTRY.

Can you see any other trends in the graphs yourself?

No.

 

[Kilkakon]

Oblivion is erratic. The problem is that his agenda, Demonism, gets him in fights a lot. He's really in the same boat as Realm at the moment -- they need a good start to have any chance of survival. Oblivion is a powerhouse if he has unlimited land to grow onto, but if he is squeezed between two others fails hard. Realm I am not too sure... they definitely don't like having both a growth and industry penalty but they have sometimes done well.

I can give the a smaller INDUSTRY penalty a go, although really the AI doesn't play the team properly (doesn't play a proper green strategy). Same for CyndaTech with the crawlers, Betrayed with the Psi bonus, Rangers with forest, the list goes on.

I realise that soon I may have to find some testers. AI games are a good start but not enough to truly figure things out.

Thanks again for the help too.

 

[vyeh]

Oblivion is erratic. The problem is that his agenda, Demonism, gets him in fights a lot. He's really in the same boat as Realm at the moment -- they need a good start to have any chance of survival. Oblivion is a powerhouse if he has unlimited land to grow onto, but if he is squeezed between two others fails hard. Realm I am not too sure... they definitely don't like having both a growth and industry penalty but they have sometimes done well.

The fact that both do well when there is no one to fight suggest that it may be the fighting that is the downfall. I had an experience with an AI faction in the SMAniaC mod that did very well. I noticed that the faction had treaties with everybody because its agenda was a default social choice so nobody got mad at it and vice versa.

Maybe we need to think about the bonuses/penalties that relate to their ability to fight.

I can give the a smaller INDUSTRY penalty a go, although really the AI doesn't play the team properly (doesn't play a proper green strategy). Same for CyndaTech with the crawlers, Betrayed with the Psi bonus, Rangers with forest, the list goes on.

I guess there are two (somewhat related) balance issues: making the AI factions competitive and making it so the human players are willing to play all 7 (not necessarily the same human player).

I realise that soon I may have to find some testers. AI games are a good start but not enough to truly figure things out.

One thing you should try is playing each faction in turn and seeing if you can "break" the game. (See if there is an obvious way to win quickly.)

Thanks again for the help too.

You've welcome. We probably should go through the alphax.txt file and look at your changes systematically.

 

[Kilkakon]

The fact that both do well when there is no one to fight suggest that it may be the fighting that is the downfall. I had an experience with an AI faction in the SMAniaC mod that did very well. I noticed that the faction had treaties with everybody because its agenda was a default social choice so nobody got mad at it and vice versa.

Yeah like future society factions as well. Rakis tends to do just as well as Adventurers because they are less aggressive until later game -- I have seen them lead in military before!

In terms of this mod, religious factions (Vixen, CyndaTech, Oblivion, Realm, Rangers) of course care about religion, but as it's a lot harder for AIs to maintain Demonism they tend to do with either Christainity or Atheism.

Most other factions either care about Values or Goals which come a bit later on.

Maybe we need to think about the bonuses/penalties that relate to their ability to fight.

Alright sure! Realm obviously has the 25% belief bonus, so when they do hit they hit hard. Really it's just the industry penalty that hurt them so much.

Oblivion just relies on being bigger than his opponents and overpowering them due to overall greater production and research.

I guess there are two (somewhat related) balance issues: making the AI factions competitive and making it so the human players are willing to play all 7 (not necessarily the same human player).

Yeah. AI priorities are a big thing of course, but sometimes the AI is just thick. If one is playing as Betrayed for instance, one would be an idiot not to use Carnivines constantly, and yet they mix them with normal troops 50/50. Or even better... a game with the Pirates when they were in a large lake. Every single sea square had a kelp farm, mining platform and a transport foil.

And yeah, I for instance am not one to go killing people. I don't think I have ever won a conquest victory, outside a scenario. I beat people that pick on me until they serve me but that's all really. And some people like going green as well.

One thing you should try is playing each faction in turn and seeing if you can "break" the game. (See if there is an obvious way to win quickly.)

Pirates are quite broken at the moment, although ECONOMY has to be proiritised. Toad is of course very able of a cheap economic win, but that was before I changed him to have +2 ORDER and a 2% interest bonus instead of +1 ECONOMY and a commerce bonus. Rangers are still quite tough.

I'm not sure if I should go for the -1 INDUSTRY for Protectors if Realm has -1 as well. Realm really isn't slow about production really.

Ugh... balancing lore versus gameplay.

You've welcome. We probably should go through the alphax.txt file and look at your changes systematically.

Sure, I was just focusing on one thing at a time. We have still got the first 7 factions to fix before we go to the second 7 as well. I can start things off though, why not? Let's start with RULES.

#RULES
3,       ; Movement rate along roads
2,       ; Nutrient intake requirement for citizens
3,2      ; Numerator & Denominator for artillery fire damage
2,       ; Max artillery range (larger will break multiplayer)
8,       ; Max airdrop range w/o orbital insertion
10,      ; Nutrient cost multiplier
10,      ; Minerals cost multiplier
80,      ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard
1,       ; Limits mineral increase for mine without road in square
0,       ; Nutrient effect in mine square (0 or -1)
5,       ; Minimum base size to support specialists
1,       ; Drones induced by Genejack factory
7,       ; Population limit w/o hab complex
14,      ; Population limit w/o hab dome
50,      ; Extra percentage cost of prototype LAND unit
50,      ; Extra percentage cost of prototype SEA unit
50,      ; Extra percentage cost of prototype AIR unit
3,2,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (LAND unit defending)
3,2,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (SEA unit defending)
3,2,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (AIR unit defending)
50,      ; Players' starting energy reserves
25,      ; Combat % -> intrinsic base defense
0,       ; Combat % -> attacking along road
15,      ; Combat % -> for attacking from higher elevation
15,      ; Combat penalty % -> attacking from lower elevation
0,       ; Combat % -> Mobile unit in open ground
0,       ; Combat % -> Defend vs. mobile in rough
0,       ; Combat % -> Infantry vs. Base
0,       ; Combat penalty % -> attack after airdrop
25,      ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
50,      ; Combat % -> Land based guns vs. ship artillery bonus
25,      ; Combat % -> Artillery bonus per level of altitude
50,      ; Combat % -> Trance bonus defending vs. psi
50,      ; Combat % -> Empath Song bonus attacking vs. psi
0,       ; Combat penalty % -> Air superiority unit vs. ground unit
0,       ; Combat % -> Air superiority unit vs. air unit
25,      ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit
50,      ; Combat % -> Comm Jammer unit defending vs. mobile unit
100,     ; Combat % -> Bonus vs. ships caught in port
0,       ; Combat % -> AAA bonus vs. air units
25,      ; Combat % -> Defend in range of friendly Sensor
10,      ; Combat % -> Psi attack bonus/penalty per +PLANET
50,      ; Retool percent penalty for production change
2,       ; Retool strictness (0 = Always Free, 1 = Free in Category, 2 = Free if Project, 3 = Never Free)
10,      ; Retool exemption (first X minerals not affected by penalty)
20,      ; Minimum # of turns between councils
5,       ; Minerals for harvesting forest
8,       ; Territory: max distance from base
30,      ; Turns to corner Global Energy Market
Native2, ; Technology to improve fungus squares
Native3, ; Technology to ease fungus movement
Native2, ; Technology to build roads in fungus
Disable, ; Technology to allow 2 special abilities for a unit
GrwFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 nutrients in a square
IndFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 minerals in a square
ResFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 energy in a square
Disable, ; Technology to allow orbital insertion w/o Space Elevator
IndFocs, ; Technology for +1 mining platform bonus
WltGoal, ; Technology for economic victory
1,       ; If non-zero, probe teams can steal technologies
1,       ; If non-zero, humans can always contact each other in net games
1,       ; If non-zero, humans can always contact each other in hotseat/email games
75,      ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in base/bunker
100,     ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in open
100,     ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units at sea
1, 1     ; Numerator/Denominator for frequency of global warming (1,2 would be "half" normal warming).
1        ; Normal starting year
500      ; Normal ending year for lowest 3 difficulty levels
400      ; Normal ending year for highest 3 difficulty levels
1        ; If non-zero, obliterating a base counts as an atrocity
10       ; Size of base for subspace generator
6        ; Number of subspace generators needed

 

[vyeh]

I'm not sure if I should go for the -1 INDUSTRY for Protectors if Realm has -1 as well. Realm really isn't slow about production really.

What are the Protectors current stats? What do you suggest instead?

RULES
...80, ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard
...0, ; Nutrient effect in mine square (0 or -1)
...3,2, ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (SEA unit defending)
3,2, ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (AIR unit defending)
50, ; Players' starting energy reserves
...15, ; Combat % -> for attacking from higher elevation
15, ; Combat penalty % -> attacking from lower elevation
0, ; Combat % -> Mobile unit in open ground
0, ; Combat % -> Defend vs. mobile in rough
0, ; Combat % -> Infantry vs. Base
0, ; Combat penalty % -> attack after airdrop
25, ; Combat % -> Fanatic attack bonus
50, ; Combat % -> Land based guns vs. ship artillery bonus
...0, ; Combat penalty % -> Air superiority unit vs. ground unit
0, ; Combat % -> Air superiority unit vs. air unit
25, ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit
...0, ; Combat % -> AAA bonus vs. air units
...30, ; Turns to corner Global Energy Market
Native2, ; Technology to improve fungus squares
Native3, ; Technology to ease fungus movement
Native2, ; Technology to build roads in fungus
Disable, ; Technology to allow 2 special abilities for a unit
GrwFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 nutrients in a square
IndFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 minerals in a square
ResFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 energy in a square
Disable, ; Technology to allow orbital insertion w/o Space Elevator
IndFocs, ; Technology for +1 mining platform bonus
WltGoal, ; Technology for economic victory
...75, ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in base/bunker
100, ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in open
...1 ; Normal starting year
500 ; Normal ending year for lowest 3 difficulty levels
400 ; Normal ending year for highest 3 difficulty levels

These look to me to be your changes from vanilla. Am I correct?

 

[Kilkakon]

What are the Protectors current stats? What do you suggest instead?

+25% DEFENCE: {Generations of experience in defending temples}
+2 PLANET: {Devoted to promoting native growth}
-2 INDUSTRY: {Reluctant to produce material goods}
-1 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
+1 Food in vine squares
{May not value Wealth}

How about a SUPPORT bonus for Protectors?

I'm only about 20% happy with Realm's industry penalty at the moment -- I'm thinking that removing it and changing other effects might be better. I'm thinking that Oblivion needs work too, either removing some minor penalties and then slamming him with a big one or just rethinking some of them altogether. Growth is the obvious thing that he has going, and a lack of police and order are his natural problems. We could go Hiveish and give him an industry boost, but that may be too Hivey.

Ultimately I should just have a think about things a bit more over the next few days and post the ideas here when I return (see below). I don't want any clones of original factions and I don't want to have two factions being the same thing. Everybody should have what reflects their personality.

These look to me to be your changes from vanilla. Am I correct?

I'll go through and redo it just to be sure.

#RULES
80,      ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard
0,       ; Nutrient effect in mine square (0 or -1)
3,2,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (SEA unit defending)
3,2,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (AIR unit defending)
50,      ; Players' starting energy reserves
15,      ; Combat % -> for attacking from higher elevation
15,      ; Combat penalty % -> attacking from lower elevation
0,       ; Combat % -> Mobile unit in open ground
0,       ; Combat % -> Defend vs. mobile in rough
0,       ; Combat % -> Infantry vs. Base
0,       ; Combat penalty % -> attack after airdrop
0,       ; Combat penalty % -> Air superiority unit vs. ground unit
0,       ; Combat % -> Air superiority unit vs. air unit
25,      ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit
50,      ; Combat % -> Comm Jammer unit defending vs. mobile unit
100,     ; Combat % -> Bonus vs. ships caught in port
100,     ; Combat % -> AAA bonus vs. air units
30,      ; Turns to corner Global Energy Market
Native2, ; Technology to improve fungus squares
Native3, ; Technology to ease fungus movement
Native2, ; Technology to build roads in fungus
Disable, ; Technology to allow 2 special abilities for a unit
GrwFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 nutrients in a square
IndFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 minerals in a square
ResFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 energy in a square
Disable, ; Technology to allow orbital insertion w/o Space Elevator
IndFocs, ; Technology for +1 mining platform bonus
WltGoal, ; Technology for economic victory
75,      ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in base/bunker
100,     ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in open
100,     ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units at sea
1        ; Normal starting year
500      ; Normal ending year for lowest 3 difficulty levels
400      ; Normal ending year for highest 3 difficulty levels

I will be MIA for the next 48 hours as I am sleeping over at a friend's place. We'll probably be giving the mod a playthrough though, as well as a lot of Warcraft 3. At any rate it'll give you a bit of a break from all this frenzied posting! I will probably be able to post in the morning before I leave though.

 

[vyeh]

+25% DEFENCE: {Generations of experience in defending temples}
+2 PLANET: {Devoted to promoting native growth}
-2 INDUSTRY: {Reluctant to produce material goods}
-1 RESEARCH: {Suspicious of secular science}
+1 Food in vine squares
{May not value Wealth}

How about a SUPPORT bonus for Protectors?

That sounds good.

I'm only about 20% happy with Realm's industry penalty at the moment -- I'm thinking that removing it and changing other effects might be better.

Why are you unhappy with the penalty? Is it because it doesn't fit the story or for balancing reasons?

I'm thinking that Oblivion needs work too, either removing some minor penalties and then slamming him with a big one or just rethinking some of them altogether. Growth is the obvious thing that he has going, and a lack of police and order are his natural problems. We could go Hiveish and give him an industry boost, but that may be too Hivey.

Why do you think Oblivion needs work?

Ultimately I should just have a think about things a bit more over the next few days and post the ideas here when I return (see below). I don't want any clones of original factions and I don't want to have two factions being the same thing. Everybody should have what reflects their personality.

Maybe the way to go is to sharpen the story elements. What is the back story to Lost Eden?

I'll go through and redo it just to be sure.

#RULES
80,      ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard
0,       ; Nutrient effect in mine square (0 or -1)
3,2,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (SEA unit defending)
3,2,     ; Psi combat offense-to-defense ratio (AIR unit defending)
50,      ; Players' starting energy reserves
15,      ; Combat % -> for attacking from higher elevation
15,      ; Combat penalty % -> attacking from lower elevation
0,       ; Combat % -> Mobile unit in open ground
0,       ; Combat % -> Defend vs. mobile in rough
0,       ; Combat % -> Infantry vs. Base
0,       ; Combat penalty % -> attack after airdrop
0,       ; Combat penalty % -> Air superiority unit vs. ground unit
0,       ; Combat % -> Air superiority unit vs. air unit
25,      ; Combat penalty % -> Non-combat unit defending vs. combat unit
50,      ; Combat % -> Comm Jammer unit defending vs. mobile unit
100,     ; Combat % -> Bonus vs. ships caught in port
100,     ; Combat % -> AAA bonus vs. air units
30,      ; Turns to corner Global Energy Market
Native2, ; Technology to improve fungus squares
Native3, ; Technology to ease fungus movement
Native2, ; Technology to build roads in fungus
Disable, ; Technology to allow 2 special abilities for a unit
GrwFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 nutrients in a square
IndFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 minerals in a square
ResFocs, ; Technology to allow 3 energy in a square
Disable, ; Technology to allow orbital insertion w/o Space Elevator
IndFocs, ; Technology for +1 mining platform bonus
WltGoal, ; Technology for economic victory
75,      ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in base/bunker
100,     ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units in open
100,     ; Maximum % damage inflicted by arty versus units at sea
1        ; Normal starting year
500      ; Normal ending year for lowest 3 difficulty levels
400      ; Normal ending year for highest 3 difficulty levels

What jumps out at me is the lack of nutrient penalty for a mine. Combined with the mineral rich, energy poor sea, there will be a lot of units. I would guess facilities will be disfavored because energy will be a little harder to come by.

I will be MIA for the next 48 hours as I am sleeping over at a friend's place. We'll probably be giving the mod a playthrough though, as well as a lot of Warcraft 3. At any rate it'll give you a bit of a break from all this frenzied posting! I will probably be able to post in the morning before I leave though.

Have fun. If you have a chance for a little bit of thinking, think about what you would like in a SMAC forum and PM me via CGN when you return.

 

[Kilkakon]

Why are you unhappy with the penalty? Is it because it doesn't fit the story or for balancing reasons?

Well if you didn't know already, my real name is Tristan. Guess who leads the Realm? Obviously with factions that are a little closer to home I'm not too fond of over-weakening them. Maybe I should just go back to story and refigure out the stats for the team from stratch. Not sure.

I really haven't defined what The Realm of Light does to an extreme extent, but I can say that Tristan aims to create a perfect society based on God's love, rather than the more democratic, over-tolerant society that Rakis offers. So lots of hugs and happiness! Most followers have typically volunteered to join due to overwhelming generousity on the part of Tristan (early on) or his faction.

Tristan is generally soft and sensitive, although swift to correct foolish statements made by others. Not in a crushing sense, but more just hamstrings his opponents' arguments by pointing out that they are self-defeating. If forced to go to war, he acts quickly and swiftly, typically using manipulative tactics and blazinng fast multi-prong attacks. He shoots only to subdue and allow time to communicate and make up, trying to reduce the tragic loss of life as much as possible.

My latest YouTube vid (it's me saying to my subscribers that I was going to be out for a few days, same as I told you on here) as a pic of my Tristan character, if you are curious.

Why do you think Oblivion needs work?

Firstly he (or his AI to be more accurate) never builds any aquaducts, which doesn't help him out. Currently his power is directly linked to how far he is from his neighbours' starting positions. If he's far away from anybody, he'll be really powerful. If he's close to a neighbour or sandwiched then he can't figure out what to do with all the pods he produces. He's often slow to pick up Demonism too.

If we go back to basics for Oblivion, just think a perverted freak that is only interested in adult stuff and exercising his will. He has a background assistant/advisor/puppeteer known as Meora which used him like a pawn. It depends on how much I pull from the "original" story and morph it into backstory for this or not, I'm happy to keep it seperate though and have Oblivion stand-alone. He does like blaming others for their mistakes (by saying that he is just an extension of their will, so why blame him for feeling bad) though, and knows how much of an effect he has on people.

Maybe the way to go is to sharpen the story elements. What is the back story to Lost Eden?

Well it has kind of evolved over time as I really didn't start the project with a story in mind, more just wanted to make a game for the art. The Realm of Light and Oblivion existed first, I just threw in more factions to make up the numbers. So yeah I'm happy to accept suggestions and changes to the story as it's pretty basic.

Currently what we have is that the world of Lost Eden is ... somewhere unreachable by human means, be it a far-distant planet, another dimension, it doesn't matter really. An unknown power governs the world -- and selects its inhabitants. People who need to/failed to sort out issues in order to seize their destiny, people who missed their opportunity in life, people who weren't given a chance, etc., go to sleep one day and wake up in Eden, in a new body and no idea what's going on! Complete one's mission and be returned to where you were with insight and wisdom, fail and remain in Eden forever.

Eden is an innocent place. The pains, sins and crimes of Earth have not been performed in Eden (hence some things like nudity, which only became a problem because of what Adam did). Normally newcomers were few and far between so there was nothing to worry about as far as corruption was concerned -- people came and they left. As more and more people have arrived over recent times however, they bought their own agendae, problems and crises with them.

Thus is the current scene for Lost Eden. Some people, like the Protectors, seek to protect or enhance one particular part of Eden's normal environment. The Realm of Light seeks to protect Eden as a whole from corruption (among other things). Others like the Adventurers, Pirates, Seafoam, etc., have their own goals that don't the corruption of Eden itself so much. Others still, like Oblivion, CyndaTech, Betrayed, Vixens, etc., are in opposition to what Lost Eden is all about and make things worse.

Good enough you think?

What jumps out at me is the lack of nutrient penalty for a mine. Combined with the mineral rich, energy poor sea, there will be a lot of units. I would guess facilities will be disfavored because energy will be a little harder to come by.

Alrighty. There are a lot less facilities though, so that would help that out somewhat. There is also a facility that's expensive to build with -5 maintenance, which helps.

Of course the Trade civic can always help out.

Have fun. If you have a chance for a little bit of thinking, think about what you would like in a SMAC forum and PM me via CGN when you return.

To be honest I am not really sure what you mean. I'm not really an expert at that sort of thing, but all I would like to see is a fun modding community that's "nice" and friendly to new people even if they are annoying. Here seems to be working out though, I'm definitely getting help for my project at least. The only real annoying thing is that the tongue smiley's P is lowercase, which is not how I normally type it on MSN or whatever.


I'm tired. I'll get to the other posts tomorrow I'm going to bed as I'm really tired hey!

 

[vyeh]

Obviously with factions that are a little closer to home I'm not too fond of over-weakening them. Maybe I should just go back to story and refigure out the stats for the team from stratch. Not sure.

From the play test, is the Realm over-weakened? If it is currently balanced, but you don't like the way it plays, then if -INDUSTRY is eliminated, which bonus could be eliminated without damaging the story element?

Firstly he (or his AI to be more accurate) never builds any aquaducts, which doesn't help him out. Currently his power is directly linked to how far he is from his neighbours' starting positions. If he's far away from anybody, he'll be really powerful. If he's close to a neighbour or sandwiched then he can't figure out what to do with all the pods he produces. He's often slow to pick up Demonism too.

I don't recall there being a problem with Morgan building hab complexes. Maybe there is something in the Morgan faction that encourages building hab complexes (e.g., a preference toward Build). Does he have his agenda set for Demonism?

If we go back to basics for Oblivion, just think a perverted freak that is only interested in adult stuff and exercising his will. ... He does like blaming others for their mistakes (by saying that he is just an extension of their will, so why blame him for feeling bad) though, and knows how much of an effect he has on people.

First sentence sounds like a RESEARCH penalty or maybe a POLICE penalty. The second sentence sounds like it should be translated into a PROBE bonus or penalty (not quite sure ).

The Realm of Light and Oblivion existed first

So we should see if we can make their stats make them opposites in some sense.

Some people, like the Protectors, seek to protect or enhance one particular part of Eden's normal environment. The Realm of Light seeks to protect Eden as a whole from corruption (among other things). Others like the Adventurers, Pirates, Seafoam, etc., have their own goals that don't the corruption of Eden itself so much. Others still, like Oblivion, CyndaTech, Betrayed, Vixens, etc., are in opposition to what Lost Eden is all about and make things worse.

Of the 12 remaining factions, how many protect Eden or part of it, how many are in opposition and how many are neutral? (Maybe the protecting factions should have an aversion to Demonism and the corrupting factions should have an aversion to Christianity.)

Alrighty. There are a lot less facilities though, so that would help that out somewhat. There is also a facility that's expensive to build with -5 maintenance, which helps.

Less facilities helps. Less energy means less trade for rush building, mind control and bribery and less research (you already have it set at 80% of normal).

Maybe it would help to have additional facilities that are expensive to build with -5 maintenance.

Of course the Trade civic can always help out.

Are there any factions that have an aversion to the Trade civic?

To be honest I am not really sure what you mean. I'm not really an expert at that sort of thing, but all I would like to see is a fun modding community that's "nice" and friendly to new people even if they are annoying. Here seems to be working out though, I'm definitely getting help for my project at least. The only real annoying thing is that the tongue smiley's P is lowercase, which is not how I normally type it on MSN or whatever.

That is enough. Maybe if you PM Petek, he can get the admins to set it up so the upper case P is also a shortcut for the tongue smiley. I don't know if it is feasible to have two shortcuts for the same smiley.

I'm tired. I'll get to the other posts tomorrow I'm going to bed as I'm really tired hey!

Welcome back. I hope you had fun.

 

[Kilkakon]

From the play test, is the Realm over-weakened? If it is currently balanced, but you don't like the way it plays, then if -INDUSTRY is eliminated, which bonus could be eliminated without damaging the story element?

Realm currently suffers from the same issues that Oblivion does -- if they land far away from neighbours, they tend to do okay (but not anywhere near as good as Oblivion) as they can expand in peace. If they don't then they tend to fail. They don't fight or anything, they just sit and be all tiny.

I'm happy to let the Economy bonus go though, it was just thrown in.

I don't recall there being a problem with Morgan building hab complexes. Maybe there is something in the Morgan faction that encourages building hab complexes (e.g., a preference toward Build). Does he have his agenda set for Demonism?

His agenda is Demonism yeah. The problem is that he doesn't make a beeline for it. Here's a tech tree I just made:

Spoiler :

That totally didn't take me 2 hours to make.

Realisation of Values is the tech that has Aquaducts and Sewer Systems. If Oblivion doesn't pick that up his bases can't grow much, and if he doesn't go for Path of Destruction (Demonism's tech) then he's hurt again. It's an AI priorities thing.

First sentence sounds like a RESEARCH penalty or maybe a POLICE penalty. The second sentence sounds like it should be translated into a PROBE bonus or penalty (not quite sure ).

Well he has a -2 Police penalty at the moment. I could do a Probe penalty. You are right though, hard to say whether to give them a bonus or a penalty.

So we should see if we can make their stats make them opposites in some sense.

Yeah that sounds logical. We could give Oblivion a 1 in 4 unhappy penalty (like Uni) to contrast with the Realm's happy bonus. Probably wouldn't give Oblivion a -25% attack penalty though (he gets free Temples instead). Their starting species make them opposites (Roses are 1e/2/1, Charmanders are 2/1/1). Oblivion has +GROWTH, Realm has -GROWTH. They both have a Police penalty. Oblivion has a Planet and Order penalty as well.

Not sure if that helps. We should probably line them up side by side, stat for stat.

Of the 12 remaining factions, how many protect Eden or part of it, how many are in opposition and how many are neutral? (Maybe the protecting factions should have an aversion to Demonism and the corrupting factions should have an aversion to Christianity.)

I can seperate them into four groups:

Group 1: Desires to protect Eden or a part of it:
Realm
Protectors

Group 2: Have their own agenda that is compatible with Eden:
Adventurers
Merchants
Rangers

Group 3: Have their own agenda that does not impact Eden:
Rakis
Pirates
True Arena
Assassins
Seafoam
Vixen's Path

Group 4: Desires to exploit/corrupt/destroy Eden:
CyndaTech (borderline between 3/4)
Oblivion
Betrayed

Less facilities helps. Less energy means less trade for rush building, mind control and bribery and less research (you already have it set at 80% of normal).

Maybe it would help to have additional facilities that are expensive to build with -5 maintenance.

I've rarely had any money problems to be honest. The lower tech speed is purely because there's not a lot of techs in the game and I didn't want people to get them all very quickly.

I'll think about having a few more -5 maintenance buildings.

Are there any factions that have an aversion to the Trade civic?

No. No factions have agendae or aversions in the Initative area. It's meant to be something that the player is able to change freely without any diplomatic lashouts.

That is enough. Maybe if you PM Petek, he can get the admins to set it up so the upper case P is also a shortcut for the tongue smiley. I don't know if it is feasible to have two shortcuts for the same smiley.

It's not that important, but we'll see.

Welcome back. I hope you had fun.

I did! Still pretty tired though but I'm trying my best.

 

[vyeh]

Realm currently suffers from the same issues that Oblivion does -- if they land far away from neighbours, they tend to do okay (but not anywhere near as good as Oblivion) as they can expand in peace. If they don't then they tend to fail. They don't fight or anything, they just sit and be all tiny.

I am not sure why they would just sit there.

I'm happy to let the Economy bonus go though, it was just thrown in.

Sounds good.

His agenda is Demonism yeah. The problem is that he doesn't make a beeline for it. Here's a tech tree I just made:
...
Realisation of Values is the tech that has Aquaducts and Sewer Systems. If Oblivion doesn't pick that up his bases can't grow much, and if he doesn't go for Path of Destruction (Demonism's tech) then he's hurt again. It's an AI priorities thing.

Maybe you have to adjust the values of those techs (and possibly the prerequisites) to make them more attractive to Oblivion.

Well he has a -2 Police penalty at the moment. I could do a Probe penalty. You are right though, hard to say whether to give them a bonus or a penalty.

I guess we see what is required for balance.

Yeah that sounds logical. We could give Oblivion a 1 in 4 unhappy penalty (like Uni) to contrast with the Realm's happy bonus. Probably wouldn't give Oblivion a -25% attack penalty though (he gets free Temples instead). Their starting species make them opposites (Roses are 1e/2/1, Charmanders are 2/1/1). Oblivion has +GROWTH, Realm has -GROWTH. They both have a Police penalty. Oblivion has a Planet and Order penalty as well.

Not sure if that helps. We should probably line them up side by side, stat for stat.

Strange that they both have police penalties. You would think Oblivion would be able to better control his population ...

I can seperate them into four groups:

Group 1: Desires to protect Eden or a part of it:
Realm
Protectors

Group 2: Have their own agenda that is compatible with Eden:
Adventurers
Merchants
Rangers

Group 3: Have their own agenda that does not impact Eden:
Rakis
Pirates
True Arena
Assassins
Seafoam
Vixen's Path

Group 4: Desires to exploit/corrupt/destroy Eden:
CyndaTech (borderline between 3/4)
Oblivion
Betrayed

Not sure if there is much of a distinction between 2 and 3. I originally asked the question because I was thinking the good guys should have Christianity as their agenda and an aversion to Demonism and the bad guys should have Demonism as their agenda and an aversion to Christianity.

I've rarely had any money problems to be honest. The lower tech speed is purely because there's not a lot of techs in the game and I didn't want people to get them all very quickly.

Fair enough.

I did! Still pretty tired though but I'm trying my best.

Glad you had fun.

 

[Kilkakon]

I am not sure why they would just sit there.

I mean, what do you do when you have expanded as far as you can without going into other people's territory? Pacificts don't do a lot.

Maybe you have to adjust the values of those techs (and possibly the prerequisites) to make them more attractive to Oblivion.

Okay, I have changed Realisation of Values to 1/3/2/1 (from 0/2/0/0), Path of Destruction to 3/1/3/1 (from 2/1/2/1) and Religious Expression to 3/4/3/3 (from 2/2/2/2).

I guess we see what is required for balance.

Strange that they both have police penalties. You would think Oblivion would be able to better control his population ...

Hehe I think I know what you mean.

But sure okay! If we take away Oblivion's police penalty and give him a probe penalty instead, that would make sense. How's this to start with?
+1 GROWTH: {Procreation encouraged}
-1 ORDER: {Corruption a way of life for followers}
-1 PROBE: {Vulnerable and afraid of the Light}
-1 PLANET: {Apathy towards clean operation}
-1 RESEARCH: {Would rather play than learn}
Free TEMPLE in every base
Need AQUADUCT for bases to exceed size 5: {Perverted activities poison water supplies}
Impunity to DEMONISM penalty: {Oblivion keeps his followers happy... personally}
{May not embrace Christianity in Social Engineering.}


And me to contrast:
+25% ATTACK: {Strength of convictions}
-1 GROWTH: {Many people reject the Light}
-1 POLICE: {Forgiving, kind society}
1 in every 4 citizens are happy.
Impunity to CHRISTIANITY penalty: {Followers willingly choose to have large families}
{May not embrace Demonism in Social Engineering.}

Not sure if there is much of a distinction between 2 and 3. I originally asked the question because I was thinking the good guys should have Christianity as their agenda and an aversion to Demonism and the bad guys should have Demonism as their agenda and an aversion to Christianity.

The difference between 2 and 3 is that the people in group 3 are doing something that is completely neutral as far as the ecology/way Eden works is concerned, but people in group 2's motives can work together with Eden. I.e. the natives would help people in group 1 and 2 happily but not 3 as much.

But close! CyndaTech is Athiest and has a Christian aversion, Betrayed has a Christian aversion but instead goes for All Must Die (but their priority of Growth makes them go for Demonism easily).


And why not go for the next section of alpha.txt?

#TERRAIN
Farm,             None,    Kelp Farm,        None,     4,  Cultivate $STR0, f, F
Soil Enricher,    Disable, Soil Enricher,    Disable,  8,  Construct $STR0, f, F
Mine,             None,    Mining Platform,  IndFocs,  8,  Construct $STR0, M, M
Settlement,       None,    Tidal Harness,    Disable,  4,  Construct $STR0, S, S
Forest,           None,    ...,              Disable,  4,  Plant $STR0,     F, Shift+F
Road,             None,    Road,             Disable,  1,  Build $STR0,     R, R
Mag Tube,         Disable, Mag Tube,         Disable,  3,  Build $STR0,     R, R
Bunker,           AppWar,  Bunker,           Disable,  5,  Construct $STR0, K, K
Airbase,          Disable, Airbase,          Disable,  10, Construct $STR0, ., .
Outpost,          Tactics, Outpost,          Disable,  4,  Construct $STR0, O, O
Vines,            None,    Sea Vines,        None,     6,  Remove $STR0,    F, F
Vines,            Native3, Sea Vines,        Disable,  6,  Plant $STR0,     F, Ctrl+F
Condenser,        Disable, Condenser,        Disable,  12, Construct $STR0, N, N
Echelon Mirror,   Disable, Echelon Mirror,   Disable,  12, Construct $STR0, E, Shift+E
Thermal Borehole, Disable, Thermal Borehole, Disable,  24, Construct $STR0, B, Shift+B
Aquifer,          Disable, Aquifer,          Disable,  18, Drill to $STR0,  Q, Q
Raise Land,       Disable, Raise Sea Floor,  Disable,  12, Terraform UP,    ], ]]
Lower Land,       Disable, Lower Sea Floor,  Disable,  12, Terraform DOWN,  [, [[
Level Terrain,    None,    Level Terrain,    Disable,  8,  Terraform LEVEL, _, _
Monolith,         Disable, Monolith,         Disable,  8,  Place Monolith,  ?, ?

#RESOURCEINFO
Ocean Square,     1, 0, 0, 0,
Base Square,      2, 1, 0, 0,
Bonus Square,     2, 2, 2, 0,
Forest Square,    1, 2, 1, 0,
Town Centre,      0, 2, 1, 0,
Improved Land,    1, *, *, 0,
Improved Sea,     2, 1, 3, 0,
Monolith,         2, 2, 2, 0,
Borehole Square,  0, 6, 6, 0,

 

[vyeh]

I mean, what do you do when you have expanded as far as you can without going into other people's territory? Pacificts don't do a lot.

Be nice if they grew vertically. Maybe they need more priority on Building.

But sure okay! If we take away Oblivion's police penalty and give him a probe penalty instead, that would make sense. How's this to start with?
+1 GROWTH: {Procreation encouraged}
-1 ORDER: {Corruption a way of life for followers}
-1 PROBE: {Vulnerable and afraid of the Light}
-1 PLANET: {Apathy towards clean operation}
-1 RESEARCH: {Would rather play than learn}
Free TEMPLE in every base
Need AQUADUCT for bases to exceed size 5: {Perverted activities poison water supplies}
Impunity to DEMONISM penalty: {Oblivion keeps his followers happy... personally}
{May not embrace Christianity in Social Engineering.}


And me to contrast:
+25% ATTACK: {Strength of convictions}
-1 GROWTH: {Many people reject the Light}
-1 POLICE: {Forgiving, kind society}
1 in every 4 citizens are happy.
Impunity to CHRISTIANITY penalty: {Followers willingly choose to have large families}
{May not embrace Demonism in Social Engineering.}

That looks good.

But close! CyndaTech is Athiest and has a Christian aversion, Betrayed has a Christian aversion but instead goes for All Must Die (but their priority of Growth makes them go for Demonism easily).

Hopefully, the good guys tend to ally with other good guys and the bad guys tend to ally with other bad guys.

And why not go for the next section of alpha.txt?

#TERRAIN
Farm,             None,    Kelp Farm,        None,     4,  Cultivate $STR0, f, F
Soil Enricher,    Disable, Soil Enricher,    Disable,  8,  Construct $STR0, f, F
Mine,             None,    Mining Platform,  IndFocs,  8,  Construct $STR0, M, M
Settlement,       None,    Tidal Harness,    Disable,  4,  Construct $STR0, S, S
Forest,           None,    ...,              Disable,  4,  Plant $STR0,     F, Shift+F
Road,             None,    Road,             Disable,  1,  Build $STR0,     R, R
Mag Tube,         Disable, Mag Tube,         Disable,  3,  Build $STR0,     R, R
Bunker,           AppWar,  Bunker,           Disable,  5,  Construct $STR0, K, K
Airbase,          Disable, Airbase,          Disable,  10, Construct $STR0, ., .
Outpost,          Tactics, Outpost,          Disable,  4,  Construct $STR0, O, O
Vines,            None,    Sea Vines,        None,     6,  Remove $STR0,    F, F
Vines,            Native3, Sea Vines,        Disable,  6,  Plant $STR0,     F, Ctrl+F
Condenser,        Disable, Condenser,        Disable,  12, Construct $STR0, N, N
Echelon Mirror,   Disable, Echelon Mirror,   Disable,  12, Construct $STR0, E, Shift+E
Thermal Borehole, Disable, Thermal Borehole, Disable,  24, Construct $STR0, B, Shift+B
Aquifer,          Disable, Aquifer,          Disable,  18, Drill to $STR0,  Q, Q
Raise Land,       Disable, Raise Sea Floor,  Disable,  12, Terraform UP,    ], ]]
Lower Land,       Disable, Lower Sea Floor,  Disable,  12, Terraform DOWN,  [, [[
Level Terrain,    None,    Level Terrain,    Disable,  8,  Terraform LEVEL, _, _
Monolith,         Disable, Monolith,         Disable,  8,  Place Monolith,  ?, ?

#RESOURCEINFO
Ocean Square,     1, 0, 0, 0,
Base Square,      2, 1, 0, 0,
Bonus Square,     2, 2, 2, 0,
Forest Square,    1, 2, 1, 0,
Town Centre,      0, 2, 1, 0,
Improved Land,    1, *, *, 0,
Improved Sea,     2, 1, 3, 0,
Monolith,         2, 2, 2, 0,
Borehole Square,  0, 6, 6, 0,

OK. We've talked about the emphasis on minerals and the deemphasis on energy.

 

[Kilkakon]

Be nice if they grew vertically. Maybe they need more priority on Building.

Sure well they may be a bit stronger with the Industry penalty removed. They tend to fight Oblivion/CyndaTech due to their anti-Christian affinities.

Realm's priorities are Explore, Discover, Build and Conquer.

That looks good.

I did water down Oblivion's impunity line as watering things down is awesome.

Hopefully, the good guys tend to ally with other good guys and the bad guys tend to ally with other bad guys.

That tends to be the way things work out. It's near impossible to maintain a treaty with Oblivion, even with giving in to all the demand for tributes.

OK. We've talked about the emphasis on minerals and the deemphasis on energy.

Sure, it's probably fair enough considering how easy it is to win via Economic anyhow, and the tiny research tree.

And here we go! The next alphax.txt section:

#WORLDBUILDER
1024,; Land base        (Seeded land size of a standard world)
512, ; Land modifier    (additional land from LAND selection: x0, x1, x2)
36,  ; Continent base   (Base size of a land mass seed)
36,  ; Continent modif. (Increased size from LAND selection: x0, x1, x2)
1,   ; Hills base       (Base # of extra hills)
2,   ; Hills modifier   (additional hills from TIDAL selection: x0, x1, x2)
4,   ; Plateau base     (Basic plateau size)
10,  ; Plateau modifier (Plateau modifier based on LAND selection: x0, x1, x2)
8,   ; Rivers base      (Basic # of rivers)
12,  ; Rivers rain mod. (Additional rivers based on RAIN selection)
14,  ; Solar Energy     (Latitude DIVISOR for temperature based on HEAT) Smaller # increases effect of HEAT selection
14,  ; Thermal band     (Latitude DIVISOR for thermal banding)  Smaller # widens hot bands
8,   ; Thermal deviance (Latitude DIVISOR for thermal deviance) Smaller # increases randomness
8,   ; Global Warming   (Latitude DIVISOR for global warming)   Smaller # increases effect of warming
5,   ; Sea Level Rises  (Magnitude of sea level changes from ice cap melting/freezing)
5,   ; Cloudmass peaks  (Size of cloud mass trapped by peaks)
3,   ; Cloudmass hills  (Size of cloud mass trapped by hills)
1,   ; Rainfall coeff.  (Multiplier for rainfall belts)
15,  ; Deep water       (Encourages fractal to grow deep water)
10,  ; Shelf            (Encourages fractal to grow shelf)
15,  ; Plains           (Encourages highland plains)
10,  ; Beach            (Encourages wider beaches)
10,  ; Hills            (Encourages hills x TIDAL selection)
25,  ; Peaks            (Encourages peaks)
1,   ; Fungus           (Fungus coefficient based on LIFE selection)
3,6,12,18,24 ; Ratio    (Continent size ratios)
36   ; Islands          (Higher # increases island count)

#WORLDSIZE
5
Tiny planet|(early conflict), 32, 64
Small planet,                 40, 80
Standard planet,              44, 90
Large planet,                 64, 128
Huge planet|(late conflict),  80, 160

Next section's the technology tree.