LotR 3 - Emperor Training
- Thread starter Arathorn
- Start date
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Arathorn, what's the play order? I'm guessing that you're going first
Yes, Architect, only the "UP" player, who has the "official" game posts in this thread.
So, if/when you play the first 10 turns, you'll post that summary in the SHADOW thread. I'll post my write-up here. Then, since you're second (as I recall), you'd post your results in this thread for the next set of turns.
charliehoke, I wish I had a good answer to your question about "what if" scenarios. What I'll say in that regard is that there is no one way to defeat Emperor (or Deity, for that matter). We'll be doing general trends/ideas/thoughts in this game, to improve your gameplay, I hope.
With that said, sending ten samurai to a stronger opponent would be a result that wouldn't be played out. Is it better/worse? Impossible to tell from that info. What is different is if you send across 10 samurai and have 3 more ready in a couple turns and I can build a few buildings and send 15 across in a couple turns.... In that case, I would say one is definitely better than the other.
In this game, though, we'll be following a lot of sub-optimal paths. I expect we all will after this game, too, because I'm still far from being
-free!!! And I'm the supposed expert. That's OK. There's really a fair chunk of room for mistakes and recovery.
Alternate histories, though, should remain "alternate" until after the main game is safely away from that point. We don't want too much unintentional information running around, if we can avoid it. (For another example of this issue, Zed and I had that big Lighthouse vs. Colussus discussion in RBD23 (I don't think that will help "a" at all). We did one, which probably worked out better than the other, but how would it have changed things to do it differently? I dunno.) Lots of things take TURNS to figure out which was better, by which time I usually say "screw it" and play what was my original intention.
What we can hopefully do is to place cities well, micromanage smartly, war intelligently, etc. Those skills are fundamental before getting too deep into the "Which nearly optimal path is better?" issues that you touch on.
Turn Order (from the first page):
Arathorn
Architect
Brian J
charliehoke
Arizona_Steve
LKendter
Arathorn
So, if/when you play the first 10 turns, you'll post that summary in the SHADOW thread. I'll post my write-up here. Then, since you're second (as I recall), you'd post your results in this thread for the next set of turns.
charliehoke, I wish I had a good answer to your question about "what if" scenarios. What I'll say in that regard is that there is no one way to defeat Emperor (or Deity, for that matter). We'll be doing general trends/ideas/thoughts in this game, to improve your gameplay, I hope.
With that said, sending ten samurai to a stronger opponent would be a result that wouldn't be played out. Is it better/worse? Impossible to tell from that info. What is different is if you send across 10 samurai and have 3 more ready in a couple turns and I can build a few buildings and send 15 across in a couple turns.... In that case, I would say one is definitely better than the other.
In this game, though, we'll be following a lot of sub-optimal paths. I expect we all will after this game, too, because I'm still far from being
-free!!! And I'm the supposed expert. That's OK. There's really a fair chunk of room for mistakes and recovery.Alternate histories, though, should remain "alternate" until after the main game is safely away from that point. We don't want too much unintentional information running around, if we can avoid it. (For another example of this issue, Zed and I had that big Lighthouse vs. Colussus discussion in RBD23 (I don't think that will help "a" at all). We did one, which probably worked out better than the other, but how would it have changed things to do it differently? I dunno.) Lots of things take TURNS to figure out which was better, by which time I usually say "screw it" and play what was my original intention.
What we can hopefully do is to place cities well, micromanage smartly, war intelligently, etc. Those skills are fundamental before getting too deep into the "Which nearly optimal path is better?" issues that you touch on.
Turn Order (from the first page):
Arathorn
Architect
Brian J
charliehoke
Arizona_Steve
LKendter
Arathorn
BrianJ
King
Arathorn, are you goin to critique the shadow games too? Or just in this thread?
I will be critiquing the shadow thread, quite seriously. I will critique the other turns here, too, but I expect to spend a lot of time in the shadow thread -- probably more time than this thread, actually.
I didn't read anything from the shadow thread yesterday, because I hadn't played MY turns yet and I wanted to do them completely independently.
I'm also gonna wait with posting critiques until everybody has posted their results.
Arathorn
I didn't read anything from the shadow thread yesterday, because I hadn't played MY turns yet and I wanted to do them completely independently.
I'm also gonna wait with posting critiques until everybody has posted their results.
Arathorn
(0) 4000 BC - Looking around before beginning, it appears there is desert to the east (looking through the shadow, it appears visible). Since there's river, that's flood plain, so potential of higher food. I send the scout that way, SE, then NE up the mountain. SE first to get two move out of the scout, to see as much as possible as fast as possible.
I see what on a floodplain over that way! Hmmm...floodplain (3) + wheat (2) - despotism (1) = 4 food. ONE turn using that wheat will make up for the one turn later city build. We won't lose either of the shielded grasslands and still have variety around the capital. Alright, one NE it is. Worker goes SE to closest shielded grass.
(1) 3950 BC - Salamanca founded on the hill. A scout is ordered. In general, intelligence (including a very sellable world map) is more important than a bit of defense. It will complete in 5 turns.
The worker starts mining the shielded grass. The extra shield is much more important than a bit of commerce. Since moving from Salamanca to this square would cross the river, it wouldn't even help with movement. No-brainer there.
The scout moves north towards the village. Popping goodie huts is always fun -- especially as an expansionist civ.
Research begins on Mysticism at 1 beaker rate. On higher levels, tech leads before the Industrial Age are very rare and only occur with lots of good goodie huts. Mysticism is pretty low on the AI tech route, so we just might get it in 40 turns for trading purposes. Also, you never get the tech you are researching out of a goodie hut. Since I don't really want Mysticism that much, I am widening the range of "good" techs we can get from goodie huts.
Also, right now, min sci (1 beaker) rate is 20%. That will change as cities grow and shrink. It should probably be checked every turn.
(2) 3900 - Following the general good principle of moving a scout two when able, I move ours north then southeast onto the goodie hut. It's a settler!!! And more wheat visible. Awesome! The settler moves east to scout a bit and to get into position to have both wheats in range and not too much overlap with Salamanca.
(3) 3850 - Scout continues exploring, NE then NW. Pretty brutal lands up here. Mountains and hills. Hopefully, it's better elsewhere.
The settler moves SE to his eventual location. Is that a lake or an ocean there? Definitely ocean. OK, this city is on the ocean. Kinda nice, but limits the "rings" of cities around our capital.
(4) 3800 - Found Niagara Falls. I move the worker from the western wheat, which is shared with Salamanca, to the northern wheat. This gives Salamanca the choice of shields/food while not limiting Niagara Falls at all. I start a temple in Niagara Falls, to get us some more shield-makers in range (and to help with happiness). I also know that this decision will be reviewed by the next player, so I limit my time investment in the decision.
Scout goes NE then N. Still pretty ugly.
Salamanca decides to stay on shields, not food, to get the scout as fast as possible.
(5) 3750 - Scout 1 goes W -- is there any food anywhere?
Scout 2 finishes. A third begun.
(6) 3700 - Scout 1 goes SW NW and sees more coast. Sigh. Narrow lands. And pretty ugly up here.
Scout 2 goes SW, W up the hill. Still lots of mountains.
Worker finally finishes his mine.
(Mistake here, I should've used one turn of high food here and possibly next turn)
(7) 3650 - Scout 1 goes NW and N on the only flat lands around here. We should be building on hills up here to maximize the limited food potential. Not too much immediate value up here.
Scout 2 goes SW and sees flat lands! HURRAY!
Worker starts road. It's of not the highest value but doing otherwise would waste a worker turn, which I am always loathe to do.
(8) 3600 - Scout 1 NE to mountain and spots incense. OK, so there is a reason to settle in the north -- at some point at least.
Scout 2 goes NW to a mountaintop. Still gets him near the flatlands for next turn but gives better view than the hill would have. And, lo and behold, there's a goodie hut over there.
I now check Salamanca and don't move the worker to the high food, figuring NF would work that square when it grows this turn.
(9) 3550 - The AI sucks! It picked the hill for NF. Bad choices mount. Anyway, I move the worker to the flood plain, as I want Salamanca on the food now. Not sure what I was here for a bit. But too late now.
Scout 1 goes E to a mountain and sees a hut.
Scout 2 W NW to hut and gets...a map. How sucky. At least the land looks lush. Probably the area to expand towards.
Oh, and NF grew, so I check happiness. It's already unhappy. Sigh. I raise lux tax to 20% to keep the people happy. Lux tax rate monitoring is necessary for these early turns -- like until at least the ADs.
Scout 3 completes in Salamanca and a warrior is ordered, but again with the thought that it could change at any time. The worker completes his road, too.
(10) 3500 - Scout 1 goes E then N towards the goodie hut.
Scout 2 goes S then S and sees not much.
Scout 3 is headed towards what he hopes is better land to the south -- moves south twice and sees a Russian spear. Oh my. Contact is made. They have Bronze Working to our Ceremonial Burial. Just what they started with. Trading is unlikely/impossible (except for workers), so I just smile at Cathy and we go our merry way. I just hope the spear came from a hut and they're not TOO close to the south.
The worker moves onto the other shielded grass, since he can't reach the flood wheat this turn.
===================
OK, I gave my thoughts as playing, with the occasional amendment of post-thought. I wish I could've had a flawless first set of turns to present, but such was not the case.
Arathorn
Save at: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-iroquois-3500bc.zip
I see what on a floodplain over that way! Hmmm...floodplain (3) + wheat (2) - despotism (1) = 4 food. ONE turn using that wheat will make up for the one turn later city build. We won't lose either of the shielded grasslands and still have variety around the capital. Alright, one NE it is. Worker goes SE to closest shielded grass.
(1) 3950 BC - Salamanca founded on the hill. A scout is ordered. In general, intelligence (including a very sellable world map) is more important than a bit of defense. It will complete in 5 turns.
The worker starts mining the shielded grass. The extra shield is much more important than a bit of commerce. Since moving from Salamanca to this square would cross the river, it wouldn't even help with movement. No-brainer there.
The scout moves north towards the village. Popping goodie huts is always fun -- especially as an expansionist civ.
Research begins on Mysticism at 1 beaker rate. On higher levels, tech leads before the Industrial Age are very rare and only occur with lots of good goodie huts. Mysticism is pretty low on the AI tech route, so we just might get it in 40 turns for trading purposes. Also, you never get the tech you are researching out of a goodie hut. Since I don't really want Mysticism that much, I am widening the range of "good" techs we can get from goodie huts.
Also, right now, min sci (1 beaker) rate is 20%. That will change as cities grow and shrink. It should probably be checked every turn.
(2) 3900 - Following the general good principle of moving a scout two when able, I move ours north then southeast onto the goodie hut. It's a settler!!! And more wheat visible. Awesome! The settler moves east to scout a bit and to get into position to have both wheats in range and not too much overlap with Salamanca.
(3) 3850 - Scout continues exploring, NE then NW. Pretty brutal lands up here. Mountains and hills. Hopefully, it's better elsewhere.
The settler moves SE to his eventual location. Is that a lake or an ocean there? Definitely ocean. OK, this city is on the ocean. Kinda nice, but limits the "rings" of cities around our capital.
(4) 3800 - Found Niagara Falls. I move the worker from the western wheat, which is shared with Salamanca, to the northern wheat. This gives Salamanca the choice of shields/food while not limiting Niagara Falls at all. I start a temple in Niagara Falls, to get us some more shield-makers in range (and to help with happiness). I also know that this decision will be reviewed by the next player, so I limit my time investment in the decision.
Scout goes NE then N. Still pretty ugly.
Salamanca decides to stay on shields, not food, to get the scout as fast as possible.
(5) 3750 - Scout 1 goes W -- is there any food anywhere?
Scout 2 finishes. A third begun.
(6) 3700 - Scout 1 goes SW NW and sees more coast. Sigh. Narrow lands. And pretty ugly up here.
Scout 2 goes SW, W up the hill. Still lots of mountains.
Worker finally finishes his mine.
(Mistake here, I should've used one turn of high food here and possibly next turn)
(7) 3650 - Scout 1 goes NW and N on the only flat lands around here. We should be building on hills up here to maximize the limited food potential. Not too much immediate value up here.
Scout 2 goes SW and sees flat lands! HURRAY!
Worker starts road. It's of not the highest value but doing otherwise would waste a worker turn, which I am always loathe to do.
(8) 3600 - Scout 1 NE to mountain and spots incense. OK, so there is a reason to settle in the north -- at some point at least.
Scout 2 goes NW to a mountaintop. Still gets him near the flatlands for next turn but gives better view than the hill would have. And, lo and behold, there's a goodie hut over there.
I now check Salamanca and don't move the worker to the high food, figuring NF would work that square when it grows this turn.
(9) 3550 - The AI sucks! It picked the hill for NF. Bad choices mount. Anyway, I move the worker to the flood plain, as I want Salamanca on the food now. Not sure what I was
here for a bit. But too late now.Scout 1 goes E to a mountain and sees a hut.
Scout 2 W NW to hut and gets...a map. How sucky. At least the land looks lush. Probably the area to expand towards.
Oh, and NF grew, so I check happiness. It's already unhappy. Sigh. I raise lux tax to 20% to keep the people happy. Lux tax rate monitoring is necessary for these early turns -- like until at least the ADs.
Scout 3 completes in Salamanca and a warrior is ordered, but again with the thought that it could change at any time. The worker completes his road, too.
(10) 3500 - Scout 1 goes E then N towards the goodie hut.
Scout 2 goes S then S and sees not much.
Scout 3 is headed towards what he hopes is better land to the south -- moves south twice and sees a Russian spear. Oh my. Contact is made. They have Bronze Working to our Ceremonial Burial. Just what they started with. Trading is unlikely/impossible (except for workers), so I just smile at Cathy and we go our merry way. I just hope the spear came from a hut and they're not TOO close to the south.
The worker moves onto the other shielded grass, since he can't reach the flood wheat this turn.
===================
OK, I gave my thoughts as playing, with the occasional amendment of post-thought. I wish I could've had a flawless first set of turns to present, but such was not the case.
Arathorn
Save at: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-iroquois-3500bc.zip
4000 - Right. Exactly. Move the scout. Pause. Evaluate. Decide.
3950 - Worker best option, city founded. Scout moving smart. OK so far. Should've (apparently) hit F6 to start Mysticism one turn earlier and finished it one turn earlier. Minor there.
Second city location is prime. Not working the extra wheat a bit earlier is as it didn't even save one turn on the scout.
Catching the incipient unhappiness was good. Temple is probably not the best option -- a worker is probably better as the growth rate is so high and can be made even higher fairly quickly with another worker. I don't think it's too late to change it, though.
Three scouts instead of two and then a warrior? Playing it a little fast-and-loose. That's OK but be wary that there are NO defenses anywhere in Iroquois territory right now. Will be a problem soon.
(Brief, cause it's me)
- 3 (Moving scout first, worker actions, initial city location)
- 2 (science rate, temple in Niagara Falls)
- 1 (Wasting some wheat turns)
Overall grade: A-
======================
Yes, Zed, Cathy starts with BW and with more than one spear, since this is emperor (probably 2 and a warrior). I am more concerned about the distance between our capitals. If that is a "true" spear (and it's not conscript, so it probably is), it has walked at most 10 squares, which means our capitals are at most 14 squares apart. That's less than I had hoped for -- but we'll adapt.
Leaving aside the luck of a settler (wonder why I was the only one to get that?), look at Salamanca. Even the moved capital produced 3 units (as many as any of the "shadow" turns and more than most) AND has had more food. That's the power of early exploration and learning from it. Even just 10 turns later, the effect can be seen -- and it will grow over time. Mining before roading also helped get the next unit out faster.
Note: At a certain point, it probably makes sense to road before mining, if it will save a settler turn in getting to a new location. We're still a bit away from a settler, though, so no huge hurries on that.
Arathorn
3950 - Worker best option, city founded. Scout moving smart. OK so far. Should've (apparently) hit F6 to start Mysticism one turn earlier and finished it one turn earlier. Minor
there.Second city location is prime. Not working the extra wheat a bit earlier is
as it didn't even save one turn on the scout.Catching the incipient unhappiness was good. Temple is probably not the best option -- a worker is probably better as the growth rate is so high and can be made even higher fairly quickly with another worker. I don't think it's too late to change it, though.
Three scouts instead of two and then a warrior? Playing it a little fast-and-loose. That's OK but be wary that there are NO defenses anywhere in Iroquois territory right now. Will be a problem soon.
(Brief, cause it's me)
- 3 (Moving scout first, worker actions, initial city location) - 2 (science rate, temple in Niagara Falls) - 1 (Wasting some wheat turns)Overall grade: A-
======================
Yes, Zed, Cathy starts with BW and with more than one spear, since this is emperor (probably 2 and a warrior). I am more concerned about the distance between our capitals. If that is a "true" spear (and it's not conscript, so it probably is), it has walked at most 10 squares, which means our capitals are at most 14 squares apart. That's less than I had hoped for -- but we'll adapt.
Leaving aside the luck of a settler (wonder why I was the only one to get that?), look at Salamanca. Even the moved capital produced 3 units (as many as any of the "shadow" turns and more than most) AND has had more food. That's the power of early exploration and learning from it. Even just 10 turns later, the effect can be seen -- and it will grow over time. Mining before roading also helped get the next unit out faster.
Note: At a certain point, it probably makes sense to road before mining, if it will save a settler turn in getting to a new location. We're still a bit away from a settler, though, so no huge hurries on that.
Arathorn
Lee - darn! I was kinda hoping you would sign up for this game, too. I, in fact, went so far as to make sure the rules wouldn't exclude you.
Like to be first alternate if we have drop-outs? I would invite you in, but doing the first set of reviews gave me a clue as to the amount of work I'm in for, and I just don't have time to add another.
I realize there are levels of play higher than mine, too. And I think I'm better than most, too.
Arathorn
Like to be first alternate if we have drop-outs? I would invite you in, but doing the first set of reviews gave me a clue as to the amount of work I'm in for, and I just don't have time to add another.
I realize there are levels of play higher than mine, too. And I think I'm better than most, too.
Arathorn
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Arathorn,
I will gladly sacrifice my spot to let Lee play. I didn't realize that I'd be playing in Sirian's and your game at the same time...and I don't think I'll be able to keep up with both.
I'll still follow the game though
I will gladly sacrifice my spot to let Lee play. I didn't realize that I'd be playing in Sirian's and your game at the same time...and I don't think I'll be able to keep up with both.
I'll still follow the game though
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Well that answers the question - I will replace ChrTh.
Bring me up to speed when I need to do something
Thanks ChrTh
Uh, what rules would have excluded me?
Unless to many games played
23 games in just the LK series
Lee,
What you need to do at this point is read this whole thread and the whole LotR3 shadow thread. I think most questions you might ask are answered there.
At this point, I don't think it's worth your playing the first 10 turns. After I look at the games tonight and a bit more discussion, we'll probably play 3500-3000 bc. At that point, it would behoove you to play those turns unofficially and post your after-action report and save in the LotR3 Shadow thread. This is not necessary, but the more you participate shadowing, the more feedback you get!
I had debated doing something similar to Sirian's and limiting this to SG novices, but I didn't. That's what would have excluded you -- too much SG experience. You're much more of an "SG veteran" than I am, this only being my 5th or so SG, but I've done a fair bit (cough, cough) of SP play!
Thanks, ChrTh, for being generous with the spot. I hope you'll continue to read.
Arathorn
What you need to do at this point is read this whole thread and the whole LotR3 shadow thread. I think most questions you might ask are answered there.
At this point, I don't think it's worth your playing the first 10 turns. After I look at the games tonight and a bit more discussion, we'll probably play 3500-3000 bc. At that point, it would behoove you to play those turns unofficially and post your after-action report and save in the LotR3 Shadow thread. This is not necessary, but the more you participate shadowing, the more feedback you get!
I had debated doing something similar to Sirian's and limiting this to SG novices, but I didn't. That's what would have excluded you -- too much SG experience. You're much more of an "SG veteran" than I am, this only being my 5th or so SG, but I've done a fair bit (cough, cough) of SP play!
Thanks, ChrTh, for being generous with the spot. I hope you'll continue to read.
Arathorn
BrianJ
King
Originally posted by LKendter
To late - but now I wished I would have signed up for the game.
Was a little to worried about getting my butt kicked.
I can tell there is a level of play above mine - and I know mine is above a lot.
You were worried you would get Your butt kicked??
Makes me wonder what I'm doing here!
3500BC (0) - I look over the lands I have inherited and things look fine. I change NF to produce a worker.
3450BC (1) - Our border expand due to my cultural brilliance...Our worker at Salamanca begins building our second mine. Our central scout moves south and finds a deposit of silks. This looks to be a prime place to build not only to prevent the russians (who are likely close) from getting but because it has many bonus grasslands and a river and a lake. Our western scout discovers ANOTHER prime location with bonus grassland and a cattle. Our northen scout will pop a goody hut next turn. I switch NF to use both food tiles to get the worker to build and the city to grow in two turns. This slows the growth of Salamanca, but makes it
sync up better with when the settle will pop. I prefer to not let my first cities go below 2 if we have enough food resources to keep them there and not slow expansion.
3400BC (2) - Our Central Scout finds another Silk deposit. Our Western scouts finds a second cattle. Our northern scouts learns Warrior Code from the Saxon tribe.
3350BC (3) - Our capital completes a warrior and begins production of a settler. NF completes a worker and sends him to irrigate the flood plains shared with Salmanca and begins construction of a temple. Our central scout spots the border markings of the Russians. Our other scouts discover little of note. I take back the shared wheat for Salmanca.
3300BC (4) - Our northern and central scouts find nothing of interest. Our western scout finds a land bridge to another large land mass and decides to explore in that direction. I'm really worried about what to do with NF. Its not going to be able to produce much until it get's its temple. We may need to whip it out.
3250BC (5) - We find more cattle out west and nothing else of note.
3200BC (6) - We meet the Chinese to the west. They know Masonry, Bronze Working and Mysticism. The are cautios towards us. SAL grows to 3 and we position the tiles so we will
grow and pop a settler in 5 turns. The mine completing and the irrigation may decrease this by one turn. We should be able to rush the temple in NF in 2 turns.
3150BC (7) - Our mine completes and I begin a road on the same tile. Our western scout discovers wine.
3100BC (8) I increase luxuries to 40% to keep NF from rioting. We lose only 1 gold per turn. I begin building a road through the flood plain. I have to pull off one of the mines to get both the growth and settler to pop at the same time. My calculations where 1 food off.. Oh well. Russia founds St. Petersburg.
3050BC (9) - Nothing much. China founds Shanghai.
3000BC (10) - As my last dying act I rush the temple in Niagra Falls and raise luxuries to 50% so it won't go into disorder. Next turn this can be lowered. If anything, this will get the debate raging about doing this or not. Looking at the situation, this town is going to have major problem producing anything useful until we mine the plains square and the hills. Either one of these will take at least 10 turns to complete. The temple will allow the town's border to expand giving it access to the plains. This will allow this town to produce and grow. With a military unit or two, we can lower the luxury rate back to 0 and then get this city going. Next turn a settler pops and this one should move south and found a city near the silks. I also purchase 2 (TWO) workers from china for 55 gold! I send them to the hills that are shared between Salmanca and Niagra Falls to begin the road.
This was a really weird turn so it will be real interesting to see what other's did. I think I set us up for really good expansion not allowing Salmanca to drop to 1 when the settler pops without really sacrificing but a couple of turns. The temple thing might get calls of weed, but how else we gonna learn...
3000BC Save File
3450BC (1) - Our border expand due to my cultural brilliance...Our worker at Salamanca begins building our second mine. Our central scout moves south and finds a deposit of silks. This looks to be a prime place to build not only to prevent the russians (who are likely close) from getting but because it has many bonus grasslands and a river and a lake. Our western scout discovers ANOTHER prime location with bonus grassland and a cattle. Our northen scout will pop a goody hut next turn. I switch NF to use both food tiles to get the worker to build and the city to grow in two turns. This slows the growth of Salamanca, but makes it
sync up better with when the settle will pop. I prefer to not let my first cities go below 2 if we have enough food resources to keep them there and not slow expansion.
3400BC (2) - Our Central Scout finds another Silk deposit. Our Western scouts finds a second cattle. Our northern scouts learns Warrior Code from the Saxon tribe.
3350BC (3) - Our capital completes a warrior and begins production of a settler. NF completes a worker and sends him to irrigate the flood plains shared with Salmanca and begins construction of a temple. Our central scout spots the border markings of the Russians. Our other scouts discover little of note. I take back the shared wheat for Salmanca.
3300BC (4) - Our northern and central scouts find nothing of interest. Our western scout finds a land bridge to another large land mass and decides to explore in that direction. I'm really worried about what to do with NF. Its not going to be able to produce much until it get's its temple. We may need to whip it out.
3250BC (5) - We find more cattle out west and nothing else of note.
3200BC (6) - We meet the Chinese to the west. They know Masonry, Bronze Working and Mysticism. The are cautios towards us. SAL grows to 3 and we position the tiles so we will
grow and pop a settler in 5 turns. The mine completing and the irrigation may decrease this by one turn. We should be able to rush the temple in NF in 2 turns.
3150BC (7) - Our mine completes and I begin a road on the same tile. Our western scout discovers wine.
3100BC (8) I increase luxuries to 40% to keep NF from rioting. We lose only 1 gold per turn. I begin building a road through the flood plain. I have to pull off one of the mines to get both the growth and settler to pop at the same time. My calculations where 1 food off.. Oh well. Russia founds St. Petersburg.
3050BC (9) - Nothing much. China founds Shanghai.
3000BC (10) - As my last dying act I rush the temple in Niagra Falls and raise luxuries to 50% so it won't go into disorder. Next turn this can be lowered. If anything, this will get the debate raging about doing this or not. Looking at the situation, this town is going to have major problem producing anything useful until we mine the plains square and the hills. Either one of these will take at least 10 turns to complete. The temple will allow the town's border to expand giving it access to the plains. This will allow this town to produce and grow. With a military unit or two, we can lower the luxury rate back to 0 and then get this city going. Next turn a settler pops and this one should move south and found a city near the silks. I also purchase 2 (TWO) workers from china for 55 gold! I send them to the hills that are shared between Salmanca and Niagra Falls to begin the road.
This was a really weird turn so it will be real interesting to see what other's did. I think I set us up for really good expansion not allowing Salmanca to drop to 1 when the settler pops without really sacrificing but a couple of turns. The temple thing might get calls of weed,
but how else we gonna learn...3000BC Save File
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I will be skipping games for a bit.
Even the biggest civs junkies have 1 limitation - a working PC.
I have to ship my PC back for repair
Right now my schedule is (USA east coast time).
Wed Night - Playing
Thur Night - No PC, can't play.
Fri Night - No PC, can't play.
Sat All day - some PC access, will see what I can complete.
Sun All day - No PC, can't play.
Mon Night - Question Mark - might have the laptop back - no guarantee.
Even the biggest civs junkies have 1 limitation - a working PC.
I have to ship my PC back for repair
Right now my schedule is (USA east coast time).
Wed Night - Playing
Thur Night - No PC, can't play.
Fri Night - No PC, can't play.
Sat All day - some PC access, will see what I can complete.
Sun All day - No PC, can't play.
Mon Night - Question Mark - might have the laptop back - no guarantee.
BrianJ
King
But I'm not going to even look at it until Arathorn gives the go-ahead.
I fully appove of the change to NF's build. 
here for that. The resulting land improvements will pay for itself in the near future.
The fascination with not dropping a city below size two is not good, though. Anytime you're slowing something down, you should ask yourself "Why?" Odds are there's not a good reason to slow things down. You're INTENTIONALLY making things last longer and wasting time. That's in its purest form.
The first time you did this was to make NF grow -- growth is an admirable goal. And it might have had unintended consequences of getting the warrior out of Salamanca earlier (report isn't exactly clear -- see the "Interturn" general comment). If so, the right thing was probably done, if only for the wrong reason. It probably didn't hurt.
But the second time??? "I have to pull off one of the mines to get both the growth and settler to pop at the same time." That's some serious you've got going there. Let's examine the repurcussions of this act.
With no change, the settler completes in 3050 BC and can start moving towards its eventual goal right away. Salamanca will grow the same time as under your scenario, but it will already have 5 shields put into its next goal (a warrior?), saving at least one turn on that project. The pop of Salamanca is the same, it has more shields and everything is moved earlier. Your change made the settler appear one later, didn't help the long-term growth (or short-term growth) of Salamanca at all, and wasted several shields. Not a good choice. How did you "position" the tiles? Always use the best tiles -- even if they don't fit your sense of asthetics. Sala should be using the two bonus, improved grass, and the wheat flood plain, depending on exact needs. Using any other square is horribly sub-optimal!
Your scouting path looks pretty good. The scout coming down the eastern coast is quite a bit behind where he could/should be. Faster fog-busting of that peninsula would've made for easier city placement decisions. But you found the landbridge and didn't shy from exploring across it -- and meeting the Chinese. Russian scout behind optimal curve, too.
Another potential problem is that you only built one warrior. That's a pretty thin defense and barbs will almost assuredly start appearing soon. The MP values of that warrior are wasted in Salamanca, too, as it was smaller in pop throughout your turns (essentially) than NF, as well as having more commerce to turn into entertainment. That warrior should've gone to NF. Even better would probably have been to build a second warrior -- this would've eliminated the about growing/settler-building at the same time, too, as a bonus. We obviously got by OK on one warrior, but that's not gonna cut it for long. We need more units, probably now.
Whipping the temple....
Right now, NF has access to at least one 4 food square and occasional access to a 5 food square and plenty of 2 food squares that can be 3 food eventually. It has, with no culture expansion, one additional shield available, for a maximum of 2 -- three after mining. This means that NF can get the necessary food to grow a citizen in at most 5 turns and probably significantly less. The temple whip kills one citizen, replaced in 5 turns. It gives 10 turn's worth of shields, though, and eventually leads to more shield squares (some northern desert isn't flood plain and so can provide some shields, when needed.
The unhappiness penalty will be cancelled by the finishing of the temple, so that after one turn of high lux tax, they can be turned way down -- and will be if the next leader is paying attention. It lasts for 20 turns, at which point, there can be an extra happy citizen in NF, which will be needed as the city's growth rate is tremendous. Minor annoyance only.
What was missed during that citizen's life? Well, for some time, all he could do is provide enough food to sustain himself (work a flood plain) and give one commerce. Yes, that commerce will add up, but so will the benefits of having a happier population with more squares to call their own -- those extra shields should mean NF can come close to building enough workers/settlers to keep up with its food growth. And the commerce deficit doesn't last too long, as the settler popping 10 turns earlier than he would've means the next city gets founded 10 turns earlier, which means it can start growing 10 turns earlier, which means ~1 extra pop, which makes up for the lost pop in NF.
Does this mean whipping NF often will be good? No. This whip had additional factors which were in its favor. Some of those are the minimal initial investment (10 shields), the lack of extra developed squares around NF (eventually, the larger NF is, the faster it will grow (until the 6/7 cut-off point, which murkies things) because each extra citizen can more than support himself working an irrigated floodplain, even in despotism), the self-healing happiness of the temple, and the need for culture to get more squares. Whipping (as is true with everything) needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Before 1.21f, the arguments were often clear that whipping was beneficial. At this point, I expect it to be rare, but this is a case where the whip
appears to be fully justified.
The purchase of two workers for 55 gold was excellent. I wish that option had been available to me. The fact that you saw it AND took advantage of it is in your favor. 55 gold is a pretty good price, too. [Side note: Glad we had the gold built up.] And I think that hill is the place for them, though whether they mine or road is an issue.
You never adjusted the science rate -- that's a cost of at least 10 gold. Shame, shame.
The unfortunate thing is that you praise your :weed: and worry about the
for your good move.
Overall:
- 3 (NF worker change, temple whip, buying Chinese workers)
- 1 (only one warrior)
- 2 (science rate, slowing Sala's settler arrival)
Overall grade: C
Arathorn
P.S. Check the "General Comments" post in the Shadow Thread appearing soon, too -- for sure.
P.P.S. This is not a go-ahead for the next turn. I expect my comments might elicit a bit of discussion at this point.
here for that. The resulting land improvements will pay for itself in the near future.The fascination with not dropping a city below size two is not good, though. Anytime you're slowing something down, you should ask yourself "Why?" Odds are there's not a good reason to slow things down. You're INTENTIONALLY making things last longer and wasting time. That's
in its purest form. The first time you did this was to make NF grow -- growth is an admirable goal. And it might have had unintended consequences of getting the warrior out of Salamanca earlier (report isn't exactly clear -- see the "Interturn" general comment). If so, the right thing was probably done, if only for the wrong reason. It probably didn't hurt.
But the second time??? "I have to pull off one of the mines to get both the growth and settler to pop at the same time." That's some serious
you've got going there. Let's examine the repurcussions of this act.With no change, the settler completes in 3050 BC and can start moving towards its eventual goal right away. Salamanca will grow the same time as under your scenario, but it will already have 5 shields put into its next goal (a warrior?), saving at least one turn on that project. The pop of Salamanca is the same, it has more shields and everything is moved earlier. Your change made the settler appear one later, didn't help the long-term growth (or short-term growth) of Salamanca at all, and wasted several shields. Not a good choice. How did you "position" the tiles? Always use the best tiles -- even if they don't fit your sense of asthetics. Sala should be using the two bonus, improved grass, and the wheat flood plain, depending on exact needs. Using any other square is horribly sub-optimal!
Your scouting path looks pretty good. The scout coming down the eastern coast is quite a bit behind where he could/should be. Faster fog-busting of that peninsula would've made for easier city placement decisions. But you found the landbridge and didn't shy from exploring across it -- and meeting the Chinese. Russian scout behind optimal curve, too.
Another potential problem is that you only built one warrior. That's a pretty thin defense and barbs will almost assuredly start appearing soon. The MP values of that warrior are wasted in Salamanca, too, as it was smaller in pop throughout your turns (essentially) than NF, as well as having more commerce to turn into entertainment. That warrior should've gone to NF. Even better would probably have been to build a second warrior -- this would've eliminated the
about growing/settler-building at the same time, too, as a bonus. We obviously got by OK on one warrior, but that's not gonna cut it for long. We need more units, probably now.Whipping the temple....
Right now, NF has access to at least one 4 food square and occasional access to a 5 food square and plenty of 2 food squares that can be 3 food eventually. It has, with no culture expansion, one additional shield available, for a maximum of 2 -- three after mining. This means that NF can get the necessary food to grow a citizen in at most 5 turns and probably significantly less. The temple whip kills one citizen, replaced in 5 turns. It gives 10 turn's worth of shields, though, and eventually leads to more shield squares (some northern desert isn't flood plain and so can provide some shields, when needed.
The unhappiness penalty will be cancelled by the finishing of the temple, so that after one turn of high lux tax, they can be turned way down -- and will be if the next leader is paying attention. It lasts for 20 turns, at which point, there can be an extra happy citizen in NF, which will be needed as the city's growth rate is tremendous. Minor annoyance only.
What was missed during that citizen's life? Well, for some time, all he could do is provide enough food to sustain himself (work a flood plain) and give one commerce. Yes, that commerce will add up, but so will the benefits of having a happier population with more squares to call their own -- those extra shields should mean NF can come close to building enough workers/settlers to keep up with its food growth. And the commerce deficit doesn't last too long, as the settler popping 10 turns earlier than he would've means the next city gets founded 10 turns earlier, which means it can start growing 10 turns earlier, which means ~1 extra pop, which makes up for the lost pop in NF.
Does this mean whipping NF often will be good? No. This whip had additional factors which were in its favor. Some of those are the minimal initial investment (10 shields), the lack of extra developed squares around NF (eventually, the larger NF is, the faster it will grow (until the 6/7 cut-off point, which murkies things) because each extra citizen can more than support himself working an irrigated floodplain, even in despotism), the self-healing happiness of the temple, and the need for culture to get more squares. Whipping (as is true with everything) needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Before 1.21f, the arguments were often clear that whipping was beneficial. At this point, I expect it to be rare, but this is a case where the whip
appears to be fully justified.The purchase of two workers for 55 gold was excellent. I wish that option had been available to me. The fact that you saw it AND took advantage of it is in your favor. 55 gold is a pretty good price, too. [Side note: Glad we had the gold built up.] And I think that hill is the place for them, though whether they mine or road is an issue.
You never adjusted the science rate -- that's a cost of at least 10 gold. Shame, shame.
The unfortunate thing is that you praise your :weed: and worry about the
for your good move.Overall:
- 3 (NF worker change, temple whip, buying Chinese workers) - 1 (only one warrior) - 2 (science rate, slowing Sala's settler arrival)Overall grade: C
Arathorn
P.S. Check the "General Comments" post in the Shadow Thread appearing soon, too -- for sure.
P.P.S. This is not a go-ahead for the next turn. I expect my comments might elicit a bit of discussion at this point.
