LotR 3 - Emperor Training

[JMB]

Hey Arathorn,

I am going to upgrade to 1.29. From reading your post above, it doesn't sound like this will be a problem... If it is, let me know.

Also, approximately when do we plan on going to war with Russia? I seem to remember from my shadow that they were pretty close to getting Gunpowder. Now I realize that the AI rarely has enough money to upgrade all their units, but Knights versus Pikemen is better than Knights versus Musketmen...


JMB

BTW, Congratulations! Boy or girl?

 

[Arathorn]

We will go to war with Russia when we have enough troops in place to do so with a reasonable expectation of success...whether that be with our current MWs (vs. pikes and spears, they do fine) or with knights or even waiting until cavalry, if that's what the game dictates. We're close to ready with our current forces...and now might be a good time to trigger our GA and try to get some wines (and maybe horses) under control.

Knights vs. musketmen is fine -- almost easy. Horsemen vs. musketmen -- that's a challenge. The key is attacking in overwhelming force and being fully prepared for the war.

As for patching to 1.29f, it's a problem if you DON'T patch -- everyone is expected to be patched for this turn. With SGs, the goal is to patch ASAP. It will almost assuredly mean that my analysis will suffer some, as I'm not familiar with the new patch yet, but we want to be moving forward, not mired in the past.

We have our second boy, Justin Michael. He is wonderful and a much better sleeper than his big brother was at that age (which isn't saying much at all). He's just over two weeks old and appears to be very healthy, which is the important thing.

Arathorn

 

[JMB]

Official Turn Report...

Turn 0 (50 AD) – Send Sal warrior to Tyen. MM St Regis as suggested. Move warrior from St Regis to Akw. Move MWs towards Catt. Change MC from galley to aqueduct. Change OS from pikeman to MW. Checked if OS would benefit from MM (as suggested), but it appears that it won’t. Send pikeman from OS to Catt. Upgrade warrior in All to swordsman. Change Stevetown to Pikeman. Change Avaris to Pikeman. MM Ton to grow in 9 turns (it can’t (no aqueduct), but aqueduct will still complete in 12 turns and we net 3 more gpt and once we complete the aqueduct, we’ll be ready to grow (previously, Ton was at 0 growth)). MM Sal as suggested. Changing scientist in Sal won’t generate more food, more shields (that is, we don’t need the extra shields, the MW will complete in the same amount of time), or more commerce, so I leave him/her to go for the Music Theory gambit… (It doesn’t seem like anyone is researching Chivalry. I consider switching from Music Theory to Chivalry (40 turns). 40 turns seems like a really long time… Rather than waste the 10 turns already put into Music Theory, I decide not to switch.) Diplo check. Russia has Astronomy and Invention. China has Invention. Egypt and China have neither. Can trade Ivory to China and Incense to India. Trade incense to India for WM, 37 gold, and ROP (I should have tried to sell the ROP next turn when India had more money…). China wants WM, Ivory, and 401 gold for invention. Neither Gandhi nor Cleo have any gold left, so we couldn’t sell it (invention) for anything if we bought it; I decide to wait… Renegotiate ROP with China for 11 g.

Between turns – Russian’s building Leo’s.

Turn 1 (70 AD) – Send swordsman from All to Catt. Workers irrigate outside OS. Send a couple of workers to St Regis to bring water up to the coast. Irrigate and road outside Ton. Change GR to an aqueduct and will MM to produce aqueduct on the same turn as it is scheduled to grow (hopefully…).

Between turns – Our source of iron outside Akw was exhausted! Grr…

Turn 2 (90 AD) – Sal produces MW, another ordered. OS produces MW, another one ordered; will attempt to MM as suggested. MWs move towards Catt. NF grows. Workers north of Akw sent to bring water up north of St Regis; previous worker sent towards Akw sent to 2 squares SE of All to begin clearing the jungle. 2 workers SE of OS sent to help out clear jungle 2 squares SE of All. Workers to the NE of OS irrigate. Complete road to silks S, SW of OS. Road completed to N of Ton. Mine complete NE of Cent; begin road. Send workers N of Ton to help clear jungle around OS/All. MM All to grow quicker, MW will still complete next turn.

Between turns –

Turn 3 (110 AD) – All produces a MW, order another one. All managed to maximize growth (we lose commerce by not working the mined gold, but we’ll grow much quicker…). All will still produce a MW in 4 turns; might be able to MM to get it in 3. Road to Ivory completed. Just realized that I forgot to trade silks last turn; I try to trade them now, but everyone else already has silks (except Cathy…). Trade Ivory to China for WM and 72 g. Worker outside Stevetown begins irrigating plains. Move scout SE; I want to check out Minsk’s defenders soon… Diplo check. Everyone has Invention, but the price is still pretty high and I think we can wait for awhile…

Between turns –

Turn 4 (130 AD) – Sal produces MW, another one ordered. MW sent to Catt. Move warrior S, SE of OS to protect workers 2 squares SW of OS. We have a strong army compared to Russia *smile*. Workers to NE of Cent move NW to mine and build a road. Move 4 workers E of OS to help clear jungle 2 squares SW of OS. Move scout S; Minsk has a pikeman. Diplo check…Trade WM to India for India’s WM and 1 g. Everyone but Gandhi has Astronomy.

Between turns – Cathy asks us to move our troops out; we comply.

Turn 5 (150 AD) – Worker to E of GR completes road; send to clear jungle to S, SE of All. 3 workers N of St Regis complete irrigation; move north to irrigate and road grassland.

Between turns –

Turn 6 (170 AD) – Sal, All, and OS produce MWs; all MWs sent to Catt. Aqueduct complete in GR; order marketplace. Noticed extra MW in OS; send to Catt. Set All and OS to maximize growth. Scout moves NW. We now have 21 MWs… Russia is building a lot of Wonders (Sun Tzu’s, Sistine, Leo’s, and Copernicus’). Because Russia is building so many wonders, they won’t be producing much military. I think that we might want to wait until the Wonder cascade has ended before we take over Russia (that way, we might get another Wonder…). Prices still seem high for Invention… Trade WMs with Cleo and Cathy. Trade WM with Mao for 1 g.

Between turns – Cleo demands our world map and 88 g. I comply as Stevetown and Avaris are vulnerable and we aren’t ready to fight Egypt. NF falls into disorder (I remember thinking about this and then promptly forgot. Grr…)

Turn 7 (190 AD) – St Regis completes aqueduct; begin pikeman. Move Stevetown worker SW to irrigate plains.

Between turns – Egypt building Copernicus’

Turn 8 (210 AD) – Sal produces MW, another ordered. Send MW to Catt. Irrigate and road 2 squares to SW of OS. Begin road to the NW, W of Akw. Begin road to N of Cent. Hurry production of marketplace in NF (32 g) to put entertainers back to work. Hurry aqueduct in Ton for 48 g; Ton will grow next turn. Hurry aqueduct in Catt for 144 g. Everyone has Chivalry, Invention and Astronomy. I don’t see much of a reason for purchasing anything this turn.

Between turns – Chinese complete Sun Tzu’s and begin Copernicus’

Turn 9 (230 AD) – NF completes marketplace; begins worker. Catt completes aqueduct and begins MW. Ton completes aqueduct and begins marketplace. Complete clearing jungle 2 squares SE of All and irrigate it (I should have mined because it is a bonus grassland…) Move 3 workers NW, W of Akw towards un-roaded incense. MM All to grow and produce MW next turn.

Between turns – Egyptians building Copernicus’ and Sistines. Indians are building Leo’s

Turn 10 (250 AD) – Sal produces MW, another ordered. Ditto for All and OS. Workers to SW, W of OS begin clearing jungle. Maximize All for growth. Workers 2 squares SE of All road; excess workers move SW to help clear jungle. Move workers to N of Cent to help road and mine incense. Move MWs towards Catt. Maximize commerce in NF; worker will still be produced next turn. Make sure to maximize growth next turn. St Regis will need some workers soon so that it isn’t working any unimproved tiles. Catt and GR should also probably get some workers soon too (to speed growth). Compared to everyone else, we have a strong army. Diplo check. Everything is quite expensive, so I don’t purchase anything. If we want to do a knight rush, we’ll need 2000 g to upgrade all our units. Because I don’t think anyone has Gunpowder, I think we should go for a MW rush as soon as the next batch of Wonders is completed.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-iroquois-250_AD.zip

 

[Arathorn]

(50) - The OS MM would have had to occur the previous turn to be of benefit. It was too late in 50 AD. Sorry that wasn't clear. The warrior defense moves earns a .

Incense to India is a bit underpriced but some gold is better than no gold, which is what I got. Smart to not buy Invention just yet.

(70) - Bummer on the iron moving. Fortunately, we have the source by Avaris and the one by OS yet, so we still have one, even after trading one source to China.

(110) - 72g for a luxury is a much better deal -- that's almost (not quite) full-price. And, we can do it again in 20 turns. Definitely good.

(130) - If you put the scout in the right place (see my shadow turn SoD), you can move him into Russia, see both Minsk and Odessa's defenders, and move him out on the same turn. No sense angering the bear too early.

(170) - Catt is getting enough troops. The best way to take Tblisi is from OS, so some of the troops should be sent there. We want to hit on all fronts at once, as much as possible.

The problem with waiting for the wonder cascade is that it might not end and/or they might have a ton of muskets before then. Once the troops are ready, hit. There's only a narrow window of opportunity with each troop set. The windows get smaller as the difficulty level gets higher. The MW window is almost closed and even the knight window is shrinking. The time is pretty much now.

NF in disorder is painful. It's a good city and we need the commerce from there, too. Every drop of gold will help when it comes upgrading time.

(210) Hurrying is best done when a lot of turns are still to go. In the NF marketplace case, it would've been best to hurry immediately, as that would have given more turns of the bonus AND saved you from the disorder that was imminent (you could/should see it coming, since you know NF's growing so fast). The aqueduct in Tonawanda was definitely NOT worth hurrying. It can go two turns with no growth fine. You lose the shields it was producing that turn and the gain is really minimal. Not bad enough to be weed but definitely sub-optimal. The aqueduct in Catt is one I considered many times but never did. No real complaints about that.

Chivalry is available and you see no point in purchasing anything? The difference between 3 offense and 4 offense might seem small, but it's quite pronounced. Even more significant is the difference between 1 defense and 3 defense, because there WILL be a counter-attack and some fast units are almost inevitably exposed. OK, it can wait until we're almost completely ready to attack, but buying it this turn for upgrades and an attack ASAP should've at least crossed your mind. I would do that in a heartbeat.

(230) Actually, having some bonus grass irrigated can be a very good thing -- especially with a GA looming (you want at least one shield/square during the GA). There's no hard and fast rule that's always correct for worker actions. Any improvement is, in general, better than none. And you will rarely find me complaining about too much food.... No weed with that worker action.

Your final analysis is a bit off -- we don't need to upgrade ALL our MWs into knights (not right away, anyway) -- in fact, we want to keep a few MWs to trigger our GA. That will help immensely with income for later upgrades. A dozen knights and 10 MWs should be sufficient for a limited war against Russia -- which is what I had envisioned all along. Waiting for the next batch of wonders to complete is too risky. When the window opens, you have to take advantage right away or it will close on you. You can then wait for another window (cavalry) or try to jump through the closed window, which is, at best, very painful, and at worst, fatal.

I would buy chivalry, upgrade as many MWs as can be conveniently done, and start preparing for war with Russia -- in a few turns. Strike in force, now.

Overall, I think you concentrated your workers a bit too much on clearing jungle. There are still better tiles that aren't developed and that cities need ASAP. Sala is working an unimproved hill often. NF has too few squares improved. GR and StR need more help. Irrigation by All to GR is important. The jungle squares can wait -- and should. They just take too much time to clear unless there's a clear goal (getting a luxury, freeing a square to open irrigation to new areas, connecting an empire, etc.).

No save game notes as I didn't get a chance to look at it. Sorry. Still rather busy and I forgot I was going to be out of town Friday.

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

Roll call time!

Who's here?
JMB, obviously. Me. Architect, you still hanging around or are you past training? D9 is out. JollyRoger, you still here?

Time to roust up a few more players? Let it die (before Russia falls? The horror!) Did I miss anyone?

Arathorn