LotR23 Only One (Built)

[Admiral Kutzov]

Circassian looks prime for expansion in a quick war at some point in the far future.

There's another barb city north of Nidaros that we might want to think about capturing. Short-term, it'd give us some cash and long-term it's good, but we're bleeding cash so badly now. Gepid and Nidaros have some axemen that could be sent that way, if desired. I just saw it the last turn and didn't want to commit to more cash bleeding without discussing with the team.

Agree we need to get some more cottages up and running and backfill the tech tree some before we expand again.

We're weighting EP's equally to Justin, Izzy and Asoka. At the current weights, we've a long time until we can see their research. The Hunting quote comes to mind, "Man who chases two rabbits loses them both" While we're building the cottages, we could send all the EPs to Asoka or Justin and steal some of the early religious techs on the path to CoL. This might tie in with arathorn's plan to trade Asoka into a war. Timing everything right may be difficult.

IMHO, we should hold off on the religion until Izzy demands we convert.

Roosevelt has math IIRC.

that first spy needs to mak a pass thru Izzy and Roosevelt's territory if possible.

Why is Utica "rightfully" asking to join Justinian of the Byzantines? That's utterly ridiculous. I'm tired of that mechanic and saying "NO" every few turns. Justinian has no right to Utica -- no cultural pressure and it's not like it was ever his.

You scared me for a minute - I thought someone had theocracy and the AP up. Never saw that one before.

 

[LKendter]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/1898/LotR23_BC-0410.CivBeyondSwordSave

750 BC
I can quickly understand the cash flow problem. 7 cities before currency and courts is a real stretch. I don't plan to add any more cities to our empire.
IMHO we won't be ready to gain another city until we have some combination of courts, markets and foreign trade routes.

I don't understand why we captured Magyar. I don't think this city we ever have much economic value to us.


700 BC
(IT) Izzy comes begging for writing, and I give it to her. Our military is too weak for our very stretched empire.


675 BC
Since I gave away writing, I trade it to Roosevelt for Iron Working.
We have sources of iron, but they all need mines.


650 BC
I auto razed a barbarian city, but it only gave 8 bucks. I was hoping for more then that. We need cash to keep research going.


625 BC
(IT) I have my limits, and refuse to give Roosevelt alphabet.


600 BC
Despite now being connected to Justinian's road network we don't have foreign trade.


575 BC
There must be a one turn delay to recognize foreign trade. We now have positive cash flow at 20%.
(IT) GACK - burning down all our cash just cost us a mine by Nidaros, as I didn't have the $20 to save it.


470 BC
(IT) My next project is code of laws to continue to improve the economy.


455 BC
We've recovered to 40% science thanks to currency, and being connected to the Spanish road network.

=======================

New Updates

Not much to report. We are in pure economy recovery mode.
So far we have 2 foreign trade routes. I've started some markets, and am I heading toward courts.

I've got some axes heading toward a pathetic barbarian stone city. IMHO we should raze this city for cash. We need to increase our cash reserves to avoid more negative events that we can't pay for.

 

[Tatran]

A few comments.

We should fire one of the scientists in Uruk. CoL takes 8-9 turns and
a GS will pop up in 4 turns. With Meditation we can lightbulb Philosophy.

Justinian has built the Oracle (Metal Casting), so we have a good chance
to found 2 religions.

We also need Sailing for Calendar to work those resources.

Roosevelt is willing to declare on Justininan for Alphabet. We have already
-2 permanent relations with the Byzantines.

 

[Arathorn]

Adding to Tatran's point...Sailing also provides lighthouses, which makes coast squares 2/0/3, which ain't all bad.

Bulb Philosophy or make an Academy? I was thinking the latter, for long-term science city. Is founding a (second) religion really that valuable for us now? I'm not sure how/why it benefits us that much - since they'd be in different cities, no two shrine hydra option. Philosophy doesn't feel worth it to me.

I'd love to see AIs fight. If we could get two deals for Alphabet (e.g., war declaration and then trade it again to somebody else for a tech or two), I'd probably do that. If it helps slow them down, I'm all for it.

As for the mine burning down, as long as it wasn't the one for +2 hammers by Nidaros, losing the mine would have been my choice, even if we had 20 gold. We should have ample workers (as I built a slew on my turn), to rebuild and to have other plots ready to go if/when a disaster like that hits. I try to keep more plots developed than pop in a city, for just such a reason (and to provide food/hammer/commerce trade-offs).

Markets coming online soon (I think/hope) should stabilize our economy at 50/60% research, which is plenty fine. We might even be able to start thinking about another brief expansion. BUT, we want to be sure to give the AIs time to found enough cities to get us enough land for domination.

Roster:
Arathorn
LKendter -- just played
Strauss -- up
Admiral Kutzov -- on deck
Tartan

Arathorn

 

[Strauss]

I have the save, but don't have time to read/discuss strategy now. Will come back to it tomorrow.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Agree with Alpha to Roosie for declaring on Justin sounds like a plan.

Re the academy or lightbulb philo: we could use philo as tradebait to induce another war.

 

[Arathorn]

Strauss, tomorrow has come and gone. From the time of this post, you have 20 hours to complete and post, else I will announce a skip and the Admiral will pilot this ship forward.

Arathorn

 

[Strauss]

Turn 1 (410 BC): Trade Alpha to Roosevelt for war against Justinian



Turn 3 (380 BC): Raze Hurrian



Turn 5 (350 BC): Alhazen is born in Uruk. I use him to build an Academy

Turn 6 (335 BC): Isabella joins Roosevelt in the war against Byzantium

Turn 7 (320 BC): Cancel deals with Justinian at Isabella's request

Turn 9 (290 BC): Confucianism is founded in Magyar



Turn 15 (200 BC): There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of fighting going on: we can't see Roosy's power graph but Justinian's and Isabella's have only grown.



Some cities are nearing their happiness limit: I stagnated Nidaros, but missed it in Carthage. Whip the Courthouse there in a few turns. After Calendar we should go for Monarchy to solve our happiness woes.

 

[Arathorn]

Looks like we went the Academy route. Not much discussion on that, but I'm happy with it.

Since Magyar got the holy city bonus, we shouldn't need a monument there any more. I'd switch it off to something else.

Do we want to declare on Justinian, to get the common foe bonus with Washington and Izzy? Some diplo bonus would be good, even if we don't really do much fighting. I think our set of axes should be able to hold their own for a while yet. Just a thought.

Stagnating growth while in Slavery? What an odd thing to do. I guess if we have good specialists, it can be worth it. Else, I'd keep the growth mostly going and whip out buildings. Forges would be nice.

Were we able to trade Alphabet for anything else? Yes, I fear WFYABTA as much as the next guy (probably more, honestly), but we're on our way to 2 friendly AIs who will trade for a long time. And, honestly, we might not need to trade for that many techs later. I'd see what else we could get for it.

Short-term goal discussions:
- Courthouses or military? I vote for the courthouses first.
- War on Justinian or not? I vote for yes, war, for the diplo bonus.
- Research path? Construction? Monarchy? Civil Service? Philosophy? Metal Casting? Drama/Literature? I'm thinking Construction or Metal Casting, though it feels weird to not be targetting CS. Also, we may well want to detour and pick up cheapies like Archery on our own, quickly.

Mid-term:
- Do we wait for more AI fill-in or just go bonk some heads? I'm thinking bonking heads will work well soon.
- Who's our next foe? I think Justinian and then Asoka makes a lot of sense. Maybe a bit of vascillating war, to grab Circassian from Asoka during a lull in the Justinian wars.

Other questions:
- Where's the FP go? Carthage?

Roster:
Arathorn
LKendter
Strauss -- just played
Admiral Kutzov -- up
Tartan -- on deck

Arathorn

 

[LKendter]

Short-term goal discussions:
1. Courthouses or military? I vote for the courthouses first.
2. War on Justinian or not? I vote for yes, war, for the diplo bonus.
3. Research path? Construction? Monarchy? Civil Service? Philosophy? Metal Casting? Drama/Literature? I'm thinking Construction or Metal Casting, though it feels weird to not be targeting CS. Also, we may well want to detour and pick up cheapies like Archery on our own, quickly.

Mid-term:
4. Do we wait for more AI fill-in or just go bonk some heads? I'm thinking bonking heads will work well soon.
5. Who's our next foe? I think Justinian and then Asoka makes a lot of sense. Maybe a bit of vascillating war, to grab Circassian from Asoka during a lull in the Justinian wars.

Other questions:
6. Where's the FP go? Carthage?

1) Courthouses and markets. We need the economy to handle more cities.
2) This one is a mixed bag. Last I knew our troops were far away from the front, and we have an overstretched territory. Without opening the game I can't judge if we have enough troops on the front to risk Justinian coming our way.
3) Metal casting for the forges. Don't forget we get two happy per forge due to the gold and gems. We need larger cities. I hate relying on Monarchy MP, as it can make it painful to move the troops for war.
4) I want to wait for more AI cities. They key is we want them wasting time filling up the ice junk, while we claim the quality cities.
5) Since I want some builder rounds I will defer comments until I see the current situation.
6) Our capitol is a horrid location for distance to palace. Do we want to move the palace to Carthage and save the FP for after we kill another civ?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

I have it, but will not be able to play until this time tomorrow.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Looked at the save. My thoughts:

I'm going to turn on growth in the cities that are not growing, focusing on commerce and production. I will whip as prudent. Uruk looks to be a military production center when I'm done with it.

Not sure why we're deforesting the hills near Magyar when there are so many resources to hook up?

To answer Arathorn's questions:
1. CH, I will harp on the EP further later, but 1 or 2 EPs on each AI ain't gonna aid in this game for a long time. In addition to the monetary benefit, I want the option to run some spies. Maybe I should change my name to admiral canaris? ?
2. No war. We simply don't have the military concentrated enough.
3. If there is no vehement opposition, I think I am going to ignore WFYABTA and trade for masonry, archery and maybe HBR if the opportunities are there. We can do lots of damage with jumbos and cats; also, we are a long way from maces. Calender lets us hook up dyes, sugar and bananas. AFAIK, ignoring the diplo bonus, declaring on Justy gaines us only wines. Side note, Circassian gaines us furs; if we go for it, it should be in a "short" war while Asoka is distracted elsewhere. MC after construction.
4. Bonking heads should work nicely when we're ready. We can turn up the culture at a later date and the barbs are founding ill placed cities at a prodigious rate.
5. See end of answer 3. Delay the answer to this one. still leaning toward Issy and hydra city.
6. I don't want to spend time and hammers moving the palace so I'll prolly start the FP in Carthage after I whip the CH.

Play tomorrow night after holding for commentary and consensus. I see this as a straight forward builder set except for that new barb city in the north, maybe.

 

[Arathorn]

Seems like we have consensus on courthouses, avoiding the current conflict while our military is out-of-position. That leaves us in wait-and-see mode on our next foe(s). Maybe after Construction, some 'phants and 'pults and 'pies, we'll be in a better position to judge that. For now, continue full-on economic recovery/build mode. (But not without some military builds, please.)

I have no problem with trading for techs now. We only get a limited number of trades, but we can use them up now, expecting to not really have (m)any friends in a couple hundred turns anyway. Archery to relieve our axes of defensive duty seems quite useful to me. And recall we do need HBR for elephants.

Remaining issues:

1. Uruk as production center? I'd been envisioning it as our science capital, what with the river bonuses, grassland for cottages, etc. What's the rest of the team think? We need a couple production centers, agreed, but Nidaros feels like a great one (with two 1/5/? tiles, it's well set already). Carthage as the second? Uruk just feels two cottage-y to me to be production focused.

2. I think FP in Carthage makes a lot of sense. If we really feel the need to move the capital later, we still can, while leaving the FP in Carthage. That gets us the benefit of the FP earlier, while still potentially allowing two better-located centers, if the need arises. I'm not sure of the value of delaying the FP. Lee? If Carthage is agreed as pretty central, I'd get on that ASAP (which means all the courthouses already discussed).

3. Construction or MC first? Those seem to be the most popular. My vote is MC before Construction. With MC, we can build forges, increasing our cities' sizes as well as adding hammers. We'll probably be able to field a reasonable-sized army of 'phants and 'pults about as fast going MC/forges first as we would going straight to Construction, because we can build the army so much faster with larger, hammer-boosted cities.

New questions/issues:
- That iron tile by Gepid that Adrianople is stealing. Any chance we can culture that back?
- Where do we focus our EPs? Partially depends on next target, I would think. I understand the allure of the potential hydra city. OTOH, fighting Izzy means fighting Roosie, too. I still feel Justinian/Asoka are our next targets. Regardless, I agree we should focus them. Somewhere.

Arathorn

 

[LKendter]

2. I think FP in Carthage makes a lot of sense. If we really feel the need to move the capital later, we still can, while leaving the FP in Carthage. That gets us the benefit of the FP earlier, while still potentially allowing two better-located centers, if the need arises. I'm not sure of the value of delaying the FP. Lee? If Carthage is agreed as pretty central, I'd get on that ASAP (which means all the courthouses already discussed).

The advantage of palace in Carthage is that we can start it NOW. FP needs the required courts. I can't recall the number we need, but we may be challenged to get all of them with our current city count.

 

[Tatran]

I suggest to spend EPs on Justinian and try to steal Metal casting from him.

I always ignore WFYABTA and in this game it's very easy to make some AIs
friendly and avoid WFYABTA.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Didn't see an opportunity, so I didn't veer too far off course...

Turn 160 (0) - I take the helm. Wake up 2 scientists in Nidaros and put them to work. Calender is still due in 5. Whip the market. MM Eridu to build CH in 24 instead of 41. Wake the science guys in Uruk to build CH in 11 instead of 22. Calender is now due in 6. Whip library in Gepid. MM Magyar to make granary in 3 instead of 5. Whip the CH in Carthage.

Justy is annoyed with us, no trades. Trade IW to Asoka for Masonry, archery and 60g. Justy is monopoly on MC. Nobody has HBR. Now @ 40%, +5gpt, calender in 7.

161 - Our spy in Madrid is caught. Sidebar on spies. Don't see any reason to move them into enemy territory until we have actual missons for them. recon is a mission, but not a high priority one at this time. Now at 40%, +15gpt, calender in 5. Justy has that stack parked Adrianople. Nidaros starts a spy. Carthage starts a market. We need one more city to be able to build the FP. I'd rather build stuff than work on moving the capital when we should be able to start the FP within 30 turns. Gepid gets a beakerhead flaskhead and starts CH

162 - Barb containment in the south begins. I waste lots of work moves avoiding incoming barbs around Magyar. Kill a barb archer on Carthage iron. whip CH in Eridu. Research to 50%, +4gpt, calender in 3. Justy's stack still there.

163 - more barb dodging in the south. Prechopping dyes near Utica. Now at 6gpt. Nidaros starts another spy. Fret about the military. Eridu starts running a spy specialist. Magyar starts CH.

164 - +3gpt. Barb control in south continues.

165 - Calender in. Start construction. MC monopoly is broken; we will steal it later. suggest we weight the EPs 2 to Justy, 1 each to Issy and Roosie. Don't do it, will leave for discussion. Construction in 9. Still no trade for HBR.

166 - More barb control in the south. Judaism spreads. We feel it is just superstition and don't convert.

167 - Nidaros starts another spy. the spies will be parked in border cities until they are ready for missions for counter intelligence purposes. Now breaking even with construction in 7.

168 - worker stuff

169 - more barb control. Waiting for Yayoi to grow. I fail to start the swords I should have. It will be the 8th city that gets us ready to build FP.

170 - more barb control. Need to get another ax down there. MM Utica. Now at +4gpt, 50% research. Cats in 4.

171 - More whack a barb in the south. note all this whackage has disrupted the workers in the south. Utica gets a garrison spy. Uruk starts ax.

172 - Nidaros starts ax. Justy is still at war with Issy and Roosy.

173 - barb control fails, deer camp gets pillaged.

174 - construction in. start HBR as the AI still haven't researched it.

175 - GP in Madrid. didn't check, but presume Issy has another holy shrine. Ax goes S from Uruk to help with barb control. Uruk starts a cat. Nidaros starts a cat.

Musings:
Build 2 or 3 swords and take Yayoi or the other barb city when appropriate. Then start the FP in Carthage. Gepid's border will pop in 12; we already took that iron near adrianople. IMHO, economy is now under control. Uruk needs to stay on military for a while; I didn't build enough troops in my set. We should debate Utica v. Uruk as the science city. I'm thinking Uruk as a third production city.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/11866/LotR23_AD-0025.CivBeyondSwordSave

EDIT: the scout is parked on the hill near Madrid for recon. Bonking heads may begin in around 30-45 turns.

 

[Arathorn]

Looks good. I wish Yayoi was 1 SW of its current position, but, I guess non-builders can't be choosers.

If we can trade for MC, I'd probably do it. Forges are very nice. Especially with our metals.

I still like to beat up on the biggest threat. That appears to be Justinian/Asoka. I'd probably even go 4/1/1 EP weight on Justy/Asoka/Izzy and let Roosevelt off the hook for right now.

Do we need Yayoi for FP? On Standard maps, I thought it was 7 cities. But I really don't know.

Roster:
Arathorn -- on deck
LKendter
Strauss
Admiral Kutzov -- just played
Tartan -- up

Arathorn

 

[LKendter]

Didn't we already raze barb cities in both of those locations?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

IIRC, we need one more city for FP. Else, I'd have already started it in Carthage.

I wish Yayoi was 1 SW of its current position, but, I guess non-builders can't be choosers.

I wish that barb city on the peninsula was 1S... If wishes were fishes...

If we can trade for MC, I'd probably do it. Forges are very nice. Especially with our metals.

I would too. we've got a nice tech lead. I couldn't see researching when Justy already had it.

I still like to beat up on the biggest threat. That appears to be Justinian/Asoka. I'd probably even go 4/1/1 EP weight on Justy/Asoka/Izzy and let Roosevelt off the hook for right now.

interesting how we define the biggest threat. In my book it is Issy. I don't see Asoka as a threat at this time. The EP debate should be interesting. I'd like to employ a spy in every city where we can keep growth going even though we're using the spy. If we're going to really focus the EP, I'd dump them all on Justin and forgo the token points to the rest.

Bottom line, next set, build military. No war. Take a barb city and build the FP. Tat, if you have creative ideas for the spies, by all means do it.

Didn't we already raze barb cities in both of those locations?

IIRC, we did. We need to learn to live with non-perfect sites.

 

[Tatran]

Justinian is still the only one with Metal Casting, but not for long.
We need 8 cities (and 3 courthouses) to build the Forbidden Palace.

25 AD (0)
Nidaros needs a trading post.
Whip courthouse in Gepid.
Utica needs a courthouse.

55 AD (2)
Asoka is the founder of Christianinty, but his religion is still Buddhism,
so we have an opportunity now before he switches religion.



70 AD (3)
We lost one of our spies at Adrianople.

85 AD (4)
Research : HBR is known -> Aesthetics

100 AD (5)



The courthouse + library are destroyed.
Our spy can only steal Priesthood.

115 AD (6)
Rush courthouse in Utica.

145 AD (8)
We lost another spy.

175 AD (10)
Research : Aesthetics is known -> Literature

220 AD (13)
Research : Literature is known -> Music

250 AD (15)
We can steal Meditation, Priesthood or Monotheism, but not MC.
We don't have marble, but we can construct the Heroic Epic somewhere.