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LotR24 - French Menagerie
- Thread starter Arathorn
- Start date
Refar
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
- Messages
- 4,608
Uh... this is not a vote for moving, as i am undecided, just a note...
Where we are now, we have fresh water (from the lake) but no River. Meaning no Levee and no Hydro Plant. Moving 1N would gain us +1 Hammer and the River.
[EDIT] Actually while writing it, i am kind of leaning towards moving. Its Epic so the cost of one turn for moving is a little bit lower.
Where we are now, we have fresh water (from the lake) but no River. Meaning no Levee and no Hydro Plant. Moving 1N would gain us +1 Hammer and the River.
[EDIT] Actually while writing it, i am kind of leaning towards moving. Its Epic so the cost of one turn for moving is a little bit lower.
Jabah
Emperor
The only thing we would gain by moving is being on a river for levee.
Probably move the warrior on the blue circle but I can't imagine anything making us move.
Jabah
PS - BtW, which plain hill, we could go on the 3 ... and both forested one allows to keep the 3 visible ressources.
PS2 - Is it menagerie as all UU or also all UU+UB ??
Probably move the warrior on the blue circle but I can't imagine anything making us move.
Jabah
PS - BtW, which plain hill, we could go on the 3 ... and both forested one allows to keep the 3 visible ressources.
PS2 - Is it menagerie as all UU or also all UU+UB ??
Which plain hill? The one 1N of our location.
Sorry for no resource markers -- it's marble and 2 corns.
I'm thinking production heaven. And, eventually, that'd mean levee, so maybe moving is the best option. 1 extra production from our center square will get us going faster. I'm thinking Fast Worker-Quencha while researching Mining and then Bronze Working.
Arathorn
Sorry for no resource markers -- it's marble and 2 corns.
I'm thinking production heaven. And, eventually, that'd mean levee, so maybe moving is the best option. 1 extra production from our center square will get us going faster. I'm thinking Fast Worker-Quencha while researching Mining and then Bronze Working.
Arathorn
Yeah, moving 1N seems to be a good idea, particularly if we want a production capital. We are giving up 3 river/forests (guaranteed resourceless) for a grass hill, a grass and a plains tile that is our best chance for a resource. The medium-term hammers we lose by not being able to mine the plains hill we can get back with a mined grass hill (and be a food ahead in the bargain).
My initial inclination is seeing a start like this is to try to split the Corns between the first two cities, since the capital usually can't fully utilize both Corns in the early game without running specialists due to the happy cap. Since we're Charismatic, and will have a good number of hills, I don't think that will be the case here. Both Corn are wet, so we can be at 14 fpt at size 2. Even without a lux (or monument) we'll cap at six and can run two mined Plains hills + the mined grass hill + the quarried Marble in addition to the Corns and still be at a 4 fpt surplus.
Hmm ... when we found our 2nd city we will be able to pass a Corn off to it when the capital hits the happy cap by having the capital work a grass forest instead. (Works at sizes larger than 6 too, provided we have more 2-food tiles.) Having a farmed Corn available early would allow our 2nd city to become useful very quickly. That also favors a move N to the Plains hill. (Although this does restrict us to either of two tiles for our 2nd city. In due time ... )
Agree on researching the bottom part of the tree and building Worker first. Horses aren't critical as I think our primary exploring units will be Impis (require Hunting). No need to go for Hunting before that as I think Scouts will be sunk Hammers.
What do we want from the Oracle?
Given that I think this variant is going to further break the Rock-Paper-Scissors model of combat, I believe successful offensive operations will require copious artillery. So I think early Construction will be advantageous. I also look forward to debating stack composition as even amongst the Axe UUs different choices are optimal depending on whether we're on offense or defense, what we're defending against, and where we're defending. Should be interesting as I anticipate the AI won't particularly understand this.
Not sure this is relevant since we're running a mod, but is this game BUG-free?
My initial inclination is seeing a start like this is to try to split the Corns between the first two cities, since the capital usually can't fully utilize both Corns in the early game without running specialists due to the happy cap. Since we're Charismatic, and will have a good number of hills, I don't think that will be the case here. Both Corn are wet, so we can be at 14 fpt at size 2. Even without a lux (or monument) we'll cap at six and can run two mined Plains hills + the mined grass hill + the quarried Marble in addition to the Corns and still be at a 4 fpt surplus.
Hmm ... when we found our 2nd city we will be able to pass a Corn off to it when the capital hits the happy cap by having the capital work a grass forest instead. (Works at sizes larger than 6 too, provided we have more 2-food tiles.) Having a farmed Corn available early would allow our 2nd city to become useful very quickly. That also favors a move N to the Plains hill. (Although this does restrict us to either of two tiles for our 2nd city. In due time ... )
Agree on researching the bottom part of the tree and building Worker first. Horses aren't critical as I think our primary exploring units will be Impis (require Hunting). No need to go for Hunting before that as I think Scouts will be sunk Hammers.
What do we want from the Oracle?
Given that I think this variant is going to further break the Rock-Paper-Scissors model of combat, I believe successful offensive operations will require copious artillery. So I think early Construction will be advantageous. I also look forward to debating stack composition as even amongst the Axe UUs different choices are optimal depending on whether we're on offense or defense, what we're defending against, and where we're defending. Should be interesting as I anticipate the AI won't particularly understand this.
Not sure this is relevant since we're running a mod, but is this game BUG-free?
I would argue against Stonehenge. If we're really playing with 12 civs on a standard map, land will be at a premium. Building Stonehenge when we're not Industrious and don't have Stone has a real chance of denying ourselves a city (maybe closer to 1.5), even if we're successful.
I think in this variant it will be much easier to keep land than to take it, so let's get as much as we can peacefully before we grind the others under our boot heels.
I think in this variant it will be much easier to keep land than to take it, so let's get as much as we can peacefully before we grind the others under our boot heels.
Move the quecha and see there's coast and a clam up north (by the blue circle), but I think we can claim that with a bit of a wedge city later. Move one north to the plains hill. Found Paris on turn 1 and start exploring. We appear to be near the western edge of some land spur.
Lions start apearing very early. But we pop a hut for completely worthless maps on turn 11. Turn 12 sees Buddhism FIADL. Our scouting quecha gets badly mauled by a lion (while in jungle) on turn 19, so he's gonna heal up a while. No scouting, not much going on. Once he heals, I misguess and scout east, to more coast. South is the way to go. Second quecha sent that way. Third should stay and defend Paris.
Late in the turnset, we discovered Bronze Working. We have a couple potentially claimable sources of copper. I started on Meditation, as it rebates Masonry and I'm wondering about a Judaism run.
We still have no contacts and it looks like we might be able to block off a large chunk of land with a couple settlements in the south. We need to explore down that way and start making some decisions.
I have a real quick set of potential city sites to consider for the diabetic French. We appear to have plenty of sugar around. :rolleye:
Roster:
Arathorn -- played 35
T_McC -- up for 25
LKendter -- on deck for 15
Jabah
Refar
Lions start apearing very early. But we pop a hut for completely worthless maps on turn 11. Turn 12 sees Buddhism FIADL. Our scouting quecha gets badly mauled by a lion (while in jungle) on turn 19, so he's gonna heal up a while. No scouting, not much going on. Once he heals, I misguess and scout east, to more coast. South is the way to go. Second quecha sent that way. Third should stay and defend Paris.
Late in the turnset, we discovered Bronze Working. We have a couple potentially claimable sources of copper. I started on Meditation, as it rebates Masonry and I'm wondering about a Judaism run.
We still have no contacts and it looks like we might be able to block off a large chunk of land with a couple settlements in the south. We need to explore down that way and start making some decisions.
I have a real quick set of potential city sites to consider for the diabetic French. We appear to have plenty of sugar around. :rolleye:
Roster:
Arathorn -- played 35
T_McC -- up for 25
LKendter -- on deck for 15
Jabah
Refar
I've got the save, but won't play until tomorrow night.
First impression is that we have a lot of land for this variant. I started a game with the same settings that I let the AI play out for 100 turns, and it seemed like 5-6 cities was going to be it per civ. We may be able to get up to 7 or 8 without having to fire a shot in anger, and have a narrow front line to defend while we do so. And I believe we will have to defend that line, as someone on this continent likely got the shaft for space if we have this much.
First impression is that we have a lot of land for this variant. I started a game with the same settings that I let the AI play out for 100 turns, and it seemed like 5-6 cities was going to be it per civ. We may be able to get up to 7 or 8 without having to fire a shot in anger, and have a narrow front line to defend while we do so. And I believe we will have to defend that line, as someone on this continent likely got the shaft for space if we have this much.
Jabah
Emperor
I think we should try to aggressively settle in the south to prevent AIs (if there are any around) from getting close to us.
I also realised that with carrack for everyone, astronomy is not needed to get to any other continent...
Jabah
I also realised that with carrack for everyone, astronomy is not needed to get to any other continent...
Jabah
I agree we need/want to aggressively settle the south. I *think* the next cultural expansion at Paris will get the copper under our cultural control (I'm not so good on the diagonals of culture). So we can build real units (though we have access to dog soldiers right now) without needing to plant a city to get metal.
Once we get the south scouted, I'm thinking/hoping we'll be able to set up two cities which will completely cultural block access to "our backyard" and we'll be able to get quite a solid core built without needing/getting to use all our fun UUs. But I would settle those two southernmost cities first, so that we can use OBs (more precisely, lack thereof) to establish our backyard. And we can probably wait to get Currency before we do it.
Arathorn
Once we get the south scouted, I'm thinking/hoping we'll be able to set up two cities which will completely cultural block access to "our backyard" and we'll be able to get quite a solid core built without needing/getting to use all our fun UUs. But I would settle those two southernmost cities first, so that we can use OBs (more precisely, lack thereof) to establish our backyard. And we can probably wait to get Currency before we do it.
Arathorn
Yes, two border pops are required for Paris to claim the N copper. So we'll plant a city to claim metal before then.
Fully agree to head south first. I'm intrigued by the hill just below the <E in Arathorn's picture. That appears to be the narrow point of the continent and two cities should be able to cover the entirety of the land with no more than a single border pop per city. The southern cities will also be targets in any of our wars, so hill defense takes precedent over production. But it depends on the food availability in the region. It would be very nice to have an easy means to whip a Monument and Walls.
I'll probably go for Hunting after Mysticism so we can build Holkans (resourceless Spears). Dog Soldiers will be eaten alive by any of the Chariot UUs. Then maybe Masonry for the quarry.
Do we want to try for Stonehenge? With this much food at the capital, whipping settlers is very efficient so we can direct our forest-chops at things other than workers/settlers. We should be able to build enough cities for Stonehenge to be cost-effective.
Have to really think this one through ... At size 4 I think we'll be building pop units at +8 fpt and 10 hammers. So Workers are 5 turns w/no overflow and settlers are 9 turns honestly or 4 turns with a 2-pop whip, each with 12 overflow that can be directed to Stonehenge as well (excess food from settler/worker builds is converted to hammers if the next build isn't a pop unit). Yeah, I think we can build Stonehenge primarily out of corn.
General plan: 1 Quechua, 1 Dog, 1 Settler, 1 Holkan to re-build pop. Then a 2nd Fast Worker if it's still my turn. Since we're not aggressive the Barracks can wait. We'll cycle the unpromoted troops to the backlines once we get some promoted troops built.
Fully agree to head south first. I'm intrigued by the hill just below the <E in Arathorn's picture. That appears to be the narrow point of the continent and two cities should be able to cover the entirety of the land with no more than a single border pop per city. The southern cities will also be targets in any of our wars, so hill defense takes precedent over production. But it depends on the food availability in the region. It would be very nice to have an easy means to whip a Monument and Walls.
I'll probably go for Hunting after Mysticism so we can build Holkans (resourceless Spears). Dog Soldiers will be eaten alive by any of the Chariot UUs. Then maybe Masonry for the quarry.
Do we want to try for Stonehenge? With this much food at the capital, whipping settlers is very efficient so we can direct our forest-chops at things other than workers/settlers. We should be able to build enough cities for Stonehenge to be cost-effective.
Have to really think this one through ... At size 4 I think we'll be building pop units at +8 fpt and 10 hammers. So Workers are 5 turns w/no overflow and settlers are 9 turns honestly or 4 turns with a 2-pop whip, each with 12 overflow that can be directed to Stonehenge as well (excess food from settler/worker builds is converted to hammers if the next build isn't a pop unit). Yeah, I think we can build Stonehenge primarily out of corn.
General plan: 1 Quechua, 1 Dog, 1 Settler, 1 Holkan to re-build pop. Then a 2nd Fast Worker if it's still my turn. Since we're not aggressive the Barracks can wait. We'll cycle the unpromoted troops to the backlines once we get some promoted troops built.
If we want to build Holkans, go straight to Hunting and then come back to Mysticism on the way to Masonry. My thoughts on Mysticism were to maybe try to grab Judaism. But that would require a beeline. And the discussion (and my thoughts this morning) are that the religion is less valuable than claiming the space.
Stonehenge out of corn sounds like a plan. I'd like a more detailed description of that, though, so I can do it.
I don't quite get the details of whip overflows and manipulating build queue order.
Arathorn
Stonehenge out of corn sounds like a plan. I'd like a more detailed description of that, though, so I can do it.
I don't quite get the details of whip overflows and manipulating build queue order.Arathorn
... They Change the Questions
LotR24
Continue research on Mysticism as I'll want Stonehenge available before I'll want a Holkan. (At least we'll learn to spell all of the UU ) First combat is a Quechua win vs. a Lion on the inherited IT. Unit can promote, but I choose not to until it's necessary.
Initial exploration south indicates that the spot I was thinking of is 1 off the coast and blocked by a mountain, so that's rather mauve.
Paris builds a Quechua for MP and starts on a Dog Soldier. (I hadn't realized this during my set, but we have a Lion trapped on our N border. Free experience for the next non-Quechua we build.)
Further south we pop a hut for hostile villagers and spot a red border. No contact yet. On the next turn, after winning vs the single hostile native we meet Tokugawa, and begin to wonder if the game will be very different than intended ...
Yup. Houston, we have a problem
Later, I can tell by the espionage ratio that Tokugawa was met 3 other civs, so he's on a crowded island.
Scanning our island: We have all three Granary resources and two Harbor resources, so Health shouldn't be much of a problem. Luxuries, well ...
Hunting completes and I start Fishing as we'll want to net Clams and Fish as a food source (pop=power
). Currently too many of our land-based food sources are under Jungles.
In 2700 BC I take the last opportunity to whip the Settler for 2 pop. Let's see how much overflow we get into Stonehenge ... The answer is 50 hammers. (Or, we'll be about 1/3 done.)
While contemplating where to settle, I notice there are two turns until the forest chop/mine completes, but I'm not buying it. Experience indicates the chop will come on the IT, so we continue with Stonehenge.
I'll pass it off here so we can coordinate the settlement plans. Important: Stay on Stonehenge for another turn to catch the chop hammers, then on to something else. With one more two-pop settler whip with good overflow we should just about complete the wonder.
I have not moved the settler. I think he should settle on the spot where the Dog Soldier is standing, but I'm going cross-eyed trying to dotmap where that puts other cities. Arathorn's signs should still be present in the save but I'll attach a couple of pictures without them here ....
LotR24
Continue research on Mysticism as I'll want Stonehenge available before I'll want a Holkan. (At least we'll learn to spell all of the UU
) First combat is a Quechua win vs. a Lion on the inherited IT. Unit can promote, but I choose not to until it's necessary.Initial exploration south indicates that the spot I was thinking of is 1 off the coast and blocked by a mountain, so that's rather mauve.
Paris builds a Quechua for MP and starts on a Dog Soldier. (I hadn't realized this during my set, but we have a Lion trapped on our N border. Free experience for the next non-Quechua we build.)
Further south we pop a hut for hostile villagers and spot a red border. No contact yet. On the next turn, after winning vs the single hostile native we meet Tokugawa, and begin to wonder if the game will be very different than intended ...
Yup. Houston, we have a problem
Later, I can tell by the espionage ratio that Tokugawa was met 3 other civs, so he's on a crowded island.
Scanning our island: We have all three Granary resources and two Harbor resources, so Health shouldn't be much of a problem. Luxuries, well ...
Hunting completes and I start Fishing as we'll want to net Clams and Fish as a food source (pop=power
). Currently too many of our land-based food sources are under Jungles.In 2700 BC I take the last opportunity to whip the Settler for 2 pop. Let's see how much overflow we get into Stonehenge ... The answer is 50 hammers.
(Or, we'll be about 1/3 done.)While contemplating where to settle, I notice there are two turns until the forest chop/mine completes, but I'm not buying it. Experience indicates the chop will come on the IT, so we continue with Stonehenge.
I'll pass it off here so we can coordinate the settlement plans. Important: Stay on Stonehenge for another turn to catch the chop hammers, then on to something else. With one more two-pop settler whip with good overflow we should just about complete the wonder.
I have not moved the settler. I think he should settle on the spot where the Dog Soldier is standing, but I'm going cross-eyed trying to dotmap where that puts other cities. Arathorn's signs should still be present in the save but I'll attach a couple of pictures without them here ....
Attachments
It's fairly simple in the early game because the AI haven't started to use the slider for EPs.
Every turn the palace generates 4 EP. By hovering over an opponents name you can see the EP ratio you have with the opponent. When I made that statement we had a 5/20 ratio with Toku (his vs us/ours vs him). This early in the game the AI shouldn't be using anything other than equal weighting for their EP (and I'm not sure they ever deviate from that, unless they are committed to a war), so while our 4 EP per turn are all against Toku, he has to divide his in a manner that only allocates 1 EP per turn against us. Simplest answer: He has 4 civs to allocate EP against.
I'm not sure what would happen if he's met more than 4 civs. I think there would be a disconnect between the UI and the underlying mechanics and each turn equal fractional EP would be allocated against each opponent. The other possibility is that only the first 4 opponents met have EP against them. Simple enough to check. If our ratio with Toku goes < 1:4 before we meet anyone else, and his EP vs. us is still growing (8:36 now, 12:56 five turns from now ...) fractional EP are used.
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