Shadow Game: Cyrus, Monarch, Pangea

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Hi everyone. So, after abandoning yet another monarch game in the 1600s because I was being out-teched, I have decided to run a shadow game. Basically, I'm trying to figure out how to get in on this snowballing action that everyone keeps talking about, but I can seldom achieve. RNG has gifted me with what seems (to me) to be a fairly strong start, so I thought I'd ask for advice on how to maximise it. Grateful for any input.

The game:
Standard size, Pangea, Low sea level.
Monarch difficulty
No events, no huts, no vassals, no tech brokering.
No diplomatic victory
BUG.

Spoiler Starting Position :

I'm thinking I should settle on the plains hill 1E. This will get pigs, 2x flood plains, plenty of ,and gold, not to mention all the forests for chopping. I can't see where I'd move the scout that would reveal terrain to change that decision, so I'll probably just start scouting for my second city location.

I am considering teching straight into AH to help with that decision (and pick up the pigs). If I can get early horses, I might consider trying an immortal rush. Historically, I haven't been very successful with rushes, so getting some advice on how to pull that off would be informative.

Thanks.

 

[jnebbe]

scout NE and then settle on the marble for 3 city center, yeah it loses a couple river tiles but 3 hammer capital is so good it probably doesn't matter

 

[Fippy]

AH first looks good, PH or on marble isn't clear and prolly 50:50 but i would prolly be satisfied with a better long-term cap and just PH.
Green river + forests does matter.

 

[sampsa]

Intuitively I'd go on marble, though settling on the river would be useful. Whether AH is in time or not would be important to know (it wouldn't be on immortal, but dunno about monarch). I can promise this decision won't make it or break it.

 

[soundjata]

I think on the marble wins short term without doubt (earlier first worker, first improvement, first settler...)

The only downside could be a bad looking long term capitol (1 off the coast or bad tiles in BFC...)
I think this is irrelevant in the context of winning the game

But don't forget to scout NE first, because if there is another piggy over there, we might have another debate

 

[antimony]

If you get horses it is indeed a very strong start for immortals. Lots of production with the 50% IMP bonus for that first settler (e.g. pig + marble city center + 4H mine = a whopping 15H / turn for settlers). Cyrus is very strong at early expansion through settling or conquest and gold helps to pay for associated maintenance.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Thanks for the input everyone! I moved the settler (edit: SCOUT, not settler. facepalm) 1NE, but it didn't reveal anything interesting (tundra to the N, some desert, some plains a couple of hills - no resources). Now I have to calculate the pros/cons of PH vs marble hill. I want to make sure I understand it so that I can apply that knowledge to future games. I probably won't get to it until tonight.

 

[coanda]

The pro of Marble is that it gets you a 3-hammer city tile. That lets you finish the worker in 10 turns instead of 12, which means you improve the pigs 2 turns earlier, grow a size a turn or two earlier, improve the gold two turns earlier, and are generally a turn or two ahead for a long time. It will instantly hook up marble the same turn you discover Masonry, without needing to wait for a quarry - this can occasionally be relevant for someone planning an Oracle play, although I wouldn't be particularly leaning towards one on this start. Doesn't settle on the empty plains hill, which prevents the chance that it turns out you settled on top of a hidden copper or iron tile that would have been useful to mine. Your city's BFC will include some mystery tiles in the fog of war to the south that might be valuable. That 3H city tile might become particularly useful if you decide to make a play at an early-ish settler with Imperialistic - something like a size-2 settler would be a legitimate possibility here depending on what the scouting reveals.

Cons: can't quarry the marble, so longer-term you lose a little production (although it takes a long time for this deficit to overcome starting with an extra +1 hammer per turn, every single turn, by settling there). No fresh water health bonus, not a big deal here. The really notable one is that you don't automatically get trade-route connections with other cities sharing the river, so you'll need to build a road tile at some point after you make your second settler. That's 4 worker-turns lost, although you had 2 worker-turns gained much earlier which partially offset that (plus all the benefits you accrued in the intervening turns from getting those worker-turns earlier in the game). Your capital gives up on some nice grasslands riverside tiles that could be valuable cottages down the line.

I'd settle on the marble. It's a good starting position, and settling on the plains-hill would set you in solid position. But settling on the plains-hill would give you a strong start, but marble seems stronger to me.

 

[pigswill]

Given the amount of trees you probably don't have a strategic resource in BFC regardless of where you settle. Immortal rushes are quite nice. Slightly unconventional would be settle on marble and build pop 1 settler (before worker) while researching AH.
edit: Why no tech brokering? Generally the player is better at exploiting tech trades than the AI.

 

[Fippy]

Thanks for the input everyone! I moved the settler 1NE, but it didn't reveal anything interesting (tundra to the N, some desert, some plains a couple of hills - no resources). Now I have to calculate the pros/cons of PH vs marble hill. I want to make sure I understand it so that I can apply that knowledge to future games. I probably won't get to it until tonight.

Early turns matter as much as later ones (or maybe even more?).
Marble simply gives 2 extra when they are still most valuable, while PH gives only 1 extra.
So we need good reasons to skip that , there are some but as Sampsa wrote: not an important decision for learning Monarch, ~50:50 situations are fine either way.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Why no tech brokering? Generally the player is better at exploiting tech trades than the AI.

Because whilst most people might be better, I am definitely not. If I am able to trade a tech to the AI, I don't want them to then sell it to all their friends. I struggle enough to keep up as it is. I don't think I'm brave enough yet to try a pop 1 settler, but it is an intriguing idea. I'll definitely keep that in mind for future games (with similarly strong starts, obviously).

@coanda Thanks for that awesome break-down. Very useful!

@Fippy Thanks for the summary and the clarification.

Ok, so I think I'm going to settle on the marble. I've never done it before, so let's give it a whirl. I'll scout a bit, build a worker-warrior, and tech AH then probably mining->BW (unless roads become necessary before then).

 

[Fippy]

Not sure if it was mentioned already, Cyrus starting techs both give a discount on AH (if you want / need i can go into detail when that happens).
So the worker should be fine on improving pigs right away, but maybe not gold cos mining will likely not be ready yet.
It's one reason why an extra marble can have a bit less value on (very) high difficulty levels, techs cost more there and an earlier worker can sometimes not improve stuff as quick as we'd like.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

At Turn 19...

Spoiler 3240BC :

Just finished my second warrior, pigs are pastured, and I'm about to start mining the gold (lost a couple of worker turns waiting for mining). Starting BW.
Augustus is nearby (my first target!), and I've got two horses within spitting distance, so it's time to decide where I send my first settler.

As I see it, this northern city won't get the pigs for ages, so short term its only virtue would be getting the ponies. That being the case, I could place it 2W of where I've currently marked it. That way it could use two of Persepolis' FP, and it leaves the pigs for a coastal city later.

Spoiler Option 2 :

The southern city has even less food potential than the first option. Long term, the only thing I can see it being used for is a cottage farm. Not even enough hammers to do anything with.

Then there's the question of whether I should prioritise my settler or BW. Depending on which tiles I work, I can favour one or the other. Any thoughts on what my priority should be (I'm leaning towards the settler).

 

[coanda]

Absolutely BW after AH. I can't think of a single time in any start I've ever seen where I'd want to tech The Wheel before BW; in almost every game BW is either the first or second "target" tech, and the only thing that competes is something to let you improve a food resource tile.

In some instances on starts sort of like this one you might actually consider skipping (or significantly delaying) AH, going straight to BW. Farm the floodplains, mine the pig. Pig-mine isn't quite as productive as pig-farm, but when you've got a potential 4F floodplains giving up on the pasture doesn't completely cripple your city's growth. And getting BW earlier means you can start chopping forests earlier - a big boost. But that's really a move for a situation where you thought the worker would be finishing significantly before AH became available, so he'd be working on that farm anyways. E.g., if I were playing as Joao of Portugal here (Fishing/Mining, Expansive, Imperialistic) on Immortal or Deity with this starting position, I'd be weighing that option carefully.

It's not something to do here, because with Agriculture + Hunting starting techs and Monarch tech costs AH should be finishing in plenty of time for that first worker. I only mention it to emphasize just how important Bronze Working is to your early game.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Not sure if it was mentioned already, Cyrus starting techs both give a discount on AH (if you want / need i can go into detail when that happens).
So the worker should be fine on improving pigs right away, but maybe not gold cos mining will likely not be ready yet.
It's one reason why an extra marble can have a bit less value on (very) high difficulty levels, techs cost more there and an earlier worker can sometimes not improve stuff as quick as we'd like.

Yep. That totally happened. I knew about the tech discount for multiple prerequisite techs. If I had been paying closer attention, I think I could have squeezed one turn into farming a flood plain, but I missed it.

 

[Fippy]

I would tech wheel next, just fits better with connecting horse city & improving them instead of chopping already.
Cos Immortal rushing Augu is clearly best here, but ofc you might prefer seeing more of a peaceful approach.

If not rushing, pigs / horse city becomes an interesting situation again
Usually we want big tiles like pigs in our first ring. Otherwise you need a monument (and myst), 10t waiting still after it's built etc.
But horses are even more important if you go for Immortals.

 

[lymond]

Wait, did I misunderstand or did you say you moved the settler 1NE. If so that means you lost an extra turn settling for no reason.


(And the early gold there is nice too, My)

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Wait, did I misunderstand or did you say you moved the settler 1NE. If so that means you lost an extra turn settling for no reason.


(And the early gold there is nice too, My)

Nah. Just moved the scout 1NE, then put the settler on the marble in the first turn.

Edit: You're right though. That's what I said. It's just not what I did. I'll fix that. Thanks.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. So I'm going for the immortal rush. I want Rome. I reckon I can split one of his clams off to a second city. So my dot map of the north east coast is looking something like this...

Spoiler Proposed Dot Map :

After mining the gold, I'll have a few turns before I get the wheel, which I'll spend farming one of those flood plains. Then I'll hook up those horses and connect them to my capital.

I assume after my settler, I'll need another worker, but I want to grow a bit first. Not sure whether to pump out another warrior, or go straight for barracks in preparation for the immortals. Or do I try to steal a worker from Caesar? I'm certainly not worried about hurting relations. Lol.

Another question is how many immortals are enough? How many is too many?

 

[Fippy]

Good idea on the new city spot
Think it's better than waiting for pigs.

Gold almost doubles your research so there won't be much time until roads can be built.
Farmed floodplains are not bad and you prolly want one, but the rush takes priority so i would connect cities & horsies without delay.
You can skip a road part 2N (river will cover that one). So either road 1nw or 1ne, then 3N of Persepolis. 1ne prolly better for Immortal movement.

Stealing a worker means he will have more Archers later..prolly not that great.
Maybe build one in P while it's waiting for connected horsies.