Shadow Game: Cyrus, Monarch, Pangea

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Oh, and the next question is what to tech after BW. I see you went writing. I'd be curious to know why. Mysticism (for border pops), Iron Working (for jungle cutting & axes/swords), and Pottery (for cottages) all seem of equal importance. None of them are urgent given our current priorities, but I'm going to need them all eventually, so I was wondering what factors to consider when deciding which order to research them in.

Edit: Looking closer it seems you might have gone Potter->Writing for the bonus beakers (for prerequisites)?

Edit: I know I'm asking these questions to Pedro, but I'd certainly be interested to hear from anyone who has insight on any of this.

 

[Fippy]

Writing becomes a war tech for Immortals
Open borders = scouting & knowing how many you need.

IW - almost never unless you have jungle gems or so. But even then it's usually better to wait for trades later.
Pottery - good (and gives a writing discount), worth considering if there's time until you want AI city scouting.
Myst - also okay especially with CHA for one more happy, but no hurry if cities are small anyways.

 

[pigswill]

If you wanted to go for a major stomp you could also consider HbR>archery for HA rush (extends usefulness of immortals).

 

[Pedro78]

On the matter of binary research, does it make a difference whether you A) run 0% until you have enough gold to finish the tech, then switch to 100%; or B) run 100% until you can't anymore, then alternate between 0% and 100%? I know that later in the game, when I use option A, the AIs will often start demanding all my sweet gold, but I'm not sure whether tech decay would make option B less efficient.

Beakers don't decay. In theory A) is the most efficient (because you get research bonuses for each AI you've met who has the tech already), but it takes more planning & doesn't account for potential gold trades etc. making it a bit impractical. Otoh B) has virtually no downsides.

Also, what did you do with the worker between finishing the pigs and finishing mining? I had two or three turns where he had nothing to do.

Sat on the gold for a couple of turns, nothing better to do.

Lost my scout again. I moved slowly, I saw the panther. I retreated. It pursued. I lost. C'est la vie.

Keeping your scout on forest/jungle tiles in the very early turns can help. But bad luck happens.

Did you let Pasargadae grow to size two on the oasis, or did you switch over to the horses as soon as they were improved?

IIRC I let it grow to size 2 on the Oasis because it didn't delay the first couple of Immortals (accounting for chops)

what to tech after BW

Pottery. With such rich land you want to grow your cities & work cottages. What you tech after Pottery depends on what you plan on doing afterwards - on a map like this you have a million options. If you want to develop peacefully then Writing-Alpha-Currency would be the more universal play.

If you wanted to go for a major stomp you could also consider HbR>archery for HA rush (extends usefulness of immortals).

100% the way to get the quickest win but probably not the most educational approach.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Writing becomes a war tech for Immortals
Open borders = scouting & knowing how many you need.

IW - almost never unless you have jungle gems or so. But even then it's usually better to wait for trades later.
Pottery - good (and gives a writing discount), worth considering if there's time until you want AI city scouting.
Myst - also okay especially with CHA for one more happy, but no hurry if cities are small anyways.

I always struggle to trade for IW. I end up having to trade Alpha or Currency to get it, and that seems pretty harsh.

If you wanted to go for a major stomp you could also consider HbR>archery for HA rush (extends usefulness of immortals).

I wouldn't have thought of that. At some point I might see if I can take Gilgamesh out too, just for the lolz.

Beakers don't decay.

They don't? That's good to know. Thanks.

Sat on the gold for a couple of turns, nothing better to do.

Ahhh. It wasn't just me then. Good.

Pottery. With such rich land you want to grow your cities & work cottages. What you tech after Pottery depends on what you plan on doing afterwards - on a map like this you have a million options. If you want to develop peacefully then Writing-Alpha-Currency would be the more universal play.

Getting to Currency asap would be my usual strategy. I expect my economy to start declining fairly rapidly - especially since I would usually go on a mad land-grab to settle as many cities as I can to block out Gilgamesh.

 

[Pedro78]

I would usually go on a mad land-grab to settle as many cities as I can to block out Gilgamesh.

You're too scared of AIs. Even on deity I wouldn't worry about Gilgamesh. Once you take out either Hammy or Augustus & settle a few high-commerce spots you can sit back and relax until Cuirassiers (unless you want to go for a quick win with WEs or even HAs).

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

You're too scared of AIs.

You're absolutely right. But in my defense, it's only because I can never really stay ahead of them.

Ok. That gives me an idea for the rest of this game...

It's turn 58 and I've just taken out Rome (after already having defeated Hammy). Rather than continue my spree with Horse Archers, I want to hunker down and go for a tech victory. I get that a military victory would probably be easiest from here, but I want to learn how to switch from a war footing to an economic one and consolidate what I've already got. Does that sound reasonable/feasible?

Screenshots, savegame and dotmap to follow.

 

[lymond]

You're absolutely right. But in my defense, it's only because I can never really stay ahead of them.

But you will now ..trading alpha, aesths or maths for IW is not an issue at all

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

So, I know I've made a few inefficiencies here. I did research HbR, thinking I was going for a military victory. Hopefully, that won't cripple me.

Spoiler Turn 58 - West :

Dot 1 looks pretty sweet to me. Food, lots of river, plenty of forest to chop infrastructure or workers/settlers.
Dots a and b both have their merits, but are mainly grabbing land and sugar.

Spoiler East :

Dot 2 was mentioned early in this thread. Lots of river for cottages, plus, now we know it has copper as well.
Dot d is mostly just to stop Gilgamesh from trying to expand between my cities. Not at all urgent.
I also assume I'll capture the barb city, but might raze it and move it 1E from where it is. Not sure if that move is worth the food hammers to build a settler.

Spoiler South :

Again, dot c is to keep Gilgamesh out of my face and grab the sugar (assuming I don't settle near the one to the SE of Babylon.

Now we need to talk about where to from here.

Techwise, I'm thinking I'll finish Archery, then grab Fishing to make Rome productive. After that, Alpha->Currency sounds good, then trade for things, if the AI will give them up.

In terms of infrastructure, I've got everywhere building granaries (the screenshot of Persepolis is lying), except Babylon which already has one. For border pops, should I be looking to research mysticism and build monuments, or just chop/whip libraries? I figure roads to connect my cities are important, as well as connecting resources like the pigs and gold in my capital. And at some point I should road into Egypt, Charlie, and Sumeria for the trade routes, I suppose. Speaking of which, do I need to have open borders for trade routes?

Oh, and I need to switch over to Slavery. I don't see any reason to delay that now that I've finished churning immortals.

Thoughts?

 

[Fippy]

Game over, you are now too good for Monarch already..Emp shadow next?

 

[Pedro78]

Oh, and I need to switch over to Slavery. I don't see any reason to delay that now that I've finished churning immortals.

A couple of things to keep in mind for the transition:
- You've got a lot of tiles to improve + forests to chop --> gonna need a lot of workers
- Once you have several cities with granaries, you almost never want to slow-build workers/settlers: whip, whip, whip.

Game over, you are now too good for Monarch already..Emp shadow next?

Agreed. I'd even argue that IMM would work better for a shadow (more stuff to learn about barbs/diplo), even if you only play solo games at slightly lower difficulties. At any rate, you'd have more to learn from a game where you can't take out 2 AIs in the first 50 turns

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

A couple of things to keep in mind for the transition:
- You've got a lot of tiles to improve + forests to chop --> gonna need a lot of workers
- Once you have several cities with granaries, you almost never want to slow-build workers/settlers: whip, whip, whip.

Yeah, whipping is something I could definitely do better, but we can look into that next time.

Game over, you are now too good for Monarch already..Emp shadow next?

Agreed. I'd even argue that IMM would work better for a shadow (more stuff to learn about barbs/diplo), even if you only play solo games at slightly lower difficulties. At any rate, you'd have more to learn from a game where you can't take out 2 AIs in the first 50 turns

Point taken. I just played for a while going full berserk (just to see what would happen). I annexed Sumeria then spammed settlers for a while. It tanked my economy, but I'm bouncing back with what I expect would be a fairly overwhelming advantage. So I'll play this one out on my own, then start another shadow game next week (maybe over the weekend if I find the time).

Spoiler Might win this one :

Thanks so much everyone for all your help. After literally years not really progressing, I'm starting to have hope that I might just improve.

 

[pigswill]

Next game you play pick standard options (diplomatic victory, tech trading). Tech trading gives you a significant advantage over AI.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Next game you play pick standard options (diplomatic victory, tech trading). Tech trading gives you a significant advantage over AI.

That is certainly the plan. On my own, it has never given me much of an advantage, so I'm looking forward to learning.

As for leaders, I might try for something different. I usually stick with financial, charismatic, or creative. Sometimes with imperialistic or organised. This time I'm thinking I might go with Mao (Exp/Pro) or Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro). That way, I'm not leaning on any of my usual bonuses, plus Chinese UU can put a significant dent in a stack if required. Also, agriculture and mining are good starting techs, regardless of what the map looks like (I'm going pangea again).

 

[soundjata]

Shokonus