darrelljs
Immortal
I'd echo that...we still have several units, and they are well promoted. We are in a position to finish Charlemagne off and be in good shape gearing for the next war.
Darrell
LotR26 Mounted Mongols
- Thread starter Arathorn
- Start date
I'd echo that...we still have several units, and they are well promoted. We are in a position to finish Charlemagne off and be in good shape gearing for the next war.
Darrell
Roster:
Arathorn
darrelljs
Jabah -- UP NOW
Ozbenno -- on deck
Kylearan
Nice turns, darrell. Will our spy get kicked out when we declare? I can never remember exactly how it works, how Bhuirc's patch changes things, etc. If we can keep him there...that'll be a huge dice roll.
We should plan to have 2 more keshiks, at least, than defenders, even if the spy succeeds.
Pyramids...with Stone it's nice. I'm not sure there's really THAT much extra food around. Since there's so little grassland, food bonuses don't add up quite as quickly. Still, I love Representationism and getting that govt early is very nice. We can make good use of that.
Do we want to wait a few extra turns and get a bit better positioned and try to maybe grab another city or two? That silver/gold/sheep city will be stuck at size 2/3 but claiming 3 resources, including 2 easily doublable happy resources is worth it, IMO. That site is the most threatened, I believe.
Grabbing Mahadobi and Delhi is still pretty critical, though. So many things to do and so little time/production to do it. Good stuff.
Arathorn
Arathorn
darrelljs
Jabah -- UP NOW
Ozbenno -- on deck
Kylearan
Nice turns, darrell. Will our spy get kicked out when we declare? I can never remember exactly how it works, how Bhuirc's patch changes things, etc. If we can keep him there...that'll be a huge dice roll.
We should plan to have 2 more keshiks, at least, than defenders, even if the spy succeeds.
Pyramids...with Stone it's nice. I'm not sure there's really THAT much extra food around. Since there's so little grassland, food bonuses don't add up quite as quickly. Still, I love Representationism and getting that govt early is very nice. We can make good use of that.
Do we want to wait a few extra turns and get a bit better positioned and try to maybe grab another city or two? That silver/gold/sheep city will be stuck at size 2/3 but claiming 3 resources, including 2 easily doublable happy resources is worth it, IMO. That site is the most threatened, I believe.
Grabbing Mahadobi and Delhi is still pretty critical, though. So many things to do and so little time/production to do it. Good stuff.
Arathorn
With Ragnar at war with Charly, I think the time to strike is once the spy can take down the defenses. Then some rebuilding and then our next target.
Kylearan
compound eye
Good call on the Pyramids! Representation would be nice indeed. Not sure about slavery, though. Strange to say that - slavery is usually the über civic in the beginning, but here somehow I do not really miss it, only for emergencies maybe.
What happened to Ragnar that he is so backwards? Strange. Will be interesting to see how he does in the war.
I see we're at 23g-12, so don't forget to decrease science spending to leave some gold for random events.
-Kylearan
What happened to Ragnar that he is so backwards? Strange. Will be interesting to see how he does in the war.
I see we're at 23g-12, so don't forget to decrease science spending to leave some gold for random events.
-Kylearan
Meatbuster
formerly Robo Kai
Lurker's comment:
Inciting revolt to drop defense? That's crazy! I never thought of that.
Apparently, the advent of spying FINALLY makes horse-only wargames quite viable (and not just for HoF).
Keep up the good work, this is shaping up to be a great read.
Inciting revolt to drop defense? That's crazy! I never thought of that.
Apparently, the advent of spying FINALLY makes horse-only wargames quite viable (and not just for HoF).
Keep up the good work, this is shaping up to be a great read.
darrelljs
Immortal
You know what...I'm pretty sure the Spy will get kicked out when we declare war 
. I think we should declare on the inherited turn, it would stink to lose either Delhi or Bombay to Ragnar, in fact if he takes one we should just declare on him.
For the Pyramids, the traditional analysis is 2 grassland river farms and a scientist vs. two cottages, where it takes some time for the cottages to win. For this map, I feel like it is the extra food from Wheat/Cows feeding a Representation specialist or a pair of plains river cottages. I guess the plains river cottages win out due to the river commerce
. In any case, the 9 happy and our GP farm will benefit from it quite a bit.
Slavery is a free adoption since the cost for 2 and 3 civic swaps is the same on Epic (if memory serves). I don't see too much whipping either, other than half cost Courthouses maybe.
Darrell
. I think we should declare on the inherited turn, it would stink to lose either Delhi or Bombay to Ragnar, in fact if he takes one we should just declare on him.For the Pyramids, the traditional analysis is 2 grassland river farms and a scientist vs. two cottages, where it takes some time for the cottages to win. For this map, I feel like it is the extra food from Wheat/Cows feeding a Representation specialist or a pair of plains river cottages. I guess the plains river cottages win out due to the river commerce
. In any case, the 9 happy and our GP farm will benefit from it quite a bit.Slavery is a free adoption since the cost for 2 and 3 civic swaps is the same on Epic (if memory serves). I don't see too much whipping either, other than half cost Courthouses maybe.
Darrell
Jabah
Emperor
I have it (a bit late).
But I am quite sick today (nothing serious, just food poisonning i guess), so I will probably play tomorrow.
PS - with us being at war often, cottages are a dangerous thing compared to specialist in most cities, and in production cities, I feel we need the axtra food to work lots of hills.
Jabah
But I am quite sick today (nothing serious, just food poisonning i guess), so I will probably play tomorrow.
PS - with us being at war often, cottages are a dangerous thing compared to specialist in most cities, and in production cities, I feel we need the axtra food to work lots of hills.
Jabah
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
lurker's comment:
granted I'm an idiot, but wouldn't it make sense to incite the revolt, then declare?
The revolt only lasts one turn so you have to be in a position to attack the turn you incite the revolt, which we won't be.
I was actually going to test whether the spy would get booted in WB last night but, um, forgot.
I was actually going to test whether the spy would get booted in WB last night but, um, forgot.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
lurker's comment: 
well, I didn't actually look at a save, but I figured you'd have all these 2 movement units ready to attack within range of the city... Trust me, the spy gets booted when you declare. 
well, I didn't actually look at a save, but I figured you'd have all these 2 movement units ready to attack within range of the city... Trust me, the spy gets booted when you declare.
We can only get 3 squares away from Delhi before declaring unfortunately.
Bummer about the spy, we'll have to remove him and then re-insert when we declare.
Bummer about the spy, we'll have to remove him and then re-insert when we declare.
Jabah
Emperor
T0 (200BC-T160)
Ragnar is very far away from Charlemagne, I wonder how usefull will be his help?
As suggested, declare on T0
Spy get kicked out, of course.
kill an archer in the open.
Charlemagne has built another city, on hill with spear and 3 archer next to iron
Will pillage him to death and get him in the open, waiting for spy to get def down
T1
Charlemagne has moved archers outside, silly
both killed, Iron pillage.
Bombay is defended by 2sword+1archer
Dehli is defended by 1spear, 1axe, 2 archer
T2
Bombay has whipped an axe, now the sword is outside probably going to Pataliputra.
I could try to get it at 80% with a lonely keshik, but with no second chance. Since the sword would go in the forest next turn, I decide to strike (and win).
T3
Ragnar has 3axe+1sword+1spear around ! (+1sword behind+1axe behind)
I might let them suicide on Dehli
CM has his axe outside (killed)
T4
Revolt to representation+slavery (2t)
T5
Ragnar is in position on the hill (but would need a hell of luck to win)
[/UR
T6
Ragnar damaged badly the 2 archers and killed the axe.
Unfortunatly there is still the spear unhurt
Charles had whip a settler !!
Spy can't do the revolt (Check the support city revolt, we will need the 5 turns reduction to manage to try)
I try with a Combat II flanking II keshik first (5% win, 47% retreat) -> lose without damage to archer
try with a flanking II (2%-49%) -> lose but spear is 0.1 now !!
Our veteran keshiks have 97%+ against archer, archer, spear -> win x3
We capture size1 Delhi with granary+forge+Oracle+Mahabodhi (for 14gpt) + a worker
In Bombay there are now 4archers+sword (+GG)
T7
Kill another archer that left Bombay
We have a barbarian city next to us
T9
Get Metal Casting for the hut in the north (defended by an archer)
Get 8 Keshik ready to strike Bombay if Ragnar does some damaged
(5 archers defending)
T10
Some of our spies have been caught.
Our only spy left is the one without stationary bonus
Still 3 undamaged archer and our best units have around 30% chance only. So attack is postponed
Comments
Played only 10t as I need some rest.
Workers have been roading a bit to reduce travel cost.
1 is going to road to the gold that should be within our borders in 5t.
We need to decide what to do regarding Charlemagne, either continue the war, which I would recommend or accept peace (didn't check what he would give for it).
We should wait until the spy managed to get the fortification down (probably need to build some more for later).
Also move all units 2 tiles away (seems to be changing the AI operating mode, switch from immediat defence to something else according to some SGOTM experts) - done.
We should also build (whip ?) forges in our cities.
Barbarian city : keep or raze. My opinion is keep as it would get the unused wheat + Iron.
Also (maybe already known), there are several very good sites in the North-West lots of hills+ flood plain.
I didn't try to sell Metal Casting, but Monarchy and Math (at least) are available.
Currency next turn as well
Jabah
Ps Save is attached
Ragnar is very far away from Charlemagne, I wonder how usefull will be his help?
As suggested, declare on T0
Spy get kicked out, of course.
kill an archer in the open.
Charlemagne has built another city, on hill with spear and 3 archer next to iron
Will pillage him to death and get him in the open, waiting for spy to get def down
T1
Charlemagne has moved archers outside, silly
both killed, Iron pillage.
Bombay is defended by 2sword+1archer
Dehli is defended by 1spear, 1axe, 2 archer
T2
Bombay has whipped an axe, now the sword is outside probably going to Pataliputra.
I could try to get it at 80% with a lonely keshik, but with no second chance. Since the sword would go in the forest next turn, I decide to strike (and win).
T3
Ragnar has 3axe+1sword+1spear around ! (+1sword behind+1axe behind)
I might let them suicide on Dehli
CM has his axe outside (killed)
T4
Revolt to representation+slavery (2t)
T5
Ragnar is in position on the hill (but would need a hell of luck to win)
T6
Ragnar damaged badly the 2 archers and killed the axe.
Unfortunatly there is still the spear unhurt
Charles had whip a settler !!
Spy can't do the revolt (Check the support city revolt, we will need the 5 turns reduction to manage to try)
I try with a Combat II flanking II keshik first (5% win, 47% retreat) -> lose without damage to archer
try with a flanking II (2%-49%) -> lose but spear is 0.1 now !!
Our veteran keshiks have 97%+ against archer, archer, spear -> win x3
We capture size1 Delhi with granary+forge+Oracle+Mahabodhi (for 14gpt) + a worker
In Bombay there are now 4archers+sword (+GG)
T7
Kill another archer that left Bombay
We have a barbarian city next to us
T9
Get Metal Casting for the hut in the north (defended by an archer)
Get 8 Keshik ready to strike Bombay if Ragnar does some damaged
(5 archers defending)
T10
Some of our spies have been caught.
Our only spy left is the one without stationary bonus
Still 3 undamaged archer and our best units have around 30% chance only. So attack is postponed
Comments
Played only 10t as I need some rest.
Workers have been roading a bit to reduce travel cost.
1 is going to road to the gold that should be within our borders in 5t.
We need to decide what to do regarding Charlemagne, either continue the war, which I would recommend or accept peace (didn't check what he would give for it).
We should wait until the spy managed to get the fortification down (probably need to build some more for later).
Also move all units 2 tiles away (seems to be changing the AI operating mode, switch from immediat defence to something else according to some SGOTM experts) - done.
We should also build (whip ?) forges in our cities.
Barbarian city : keep or raze. My opinion is keep as it would get the unused wheat + Iron.
Also (maybe already known), there are several very good sites in the North-West lots of hills+ flood plain.
I didn't try to sell Metal Casting, but Monarchy and Math (at least) are available.
Currency next turn as well
Jabah
Ps Save is attached
Nice work indeed!
Complete score on Metal Casing and buddhist shrine and Pyramids!!
I would like to see Charly removed from the game now (whether we capture or raze his last cities), so i vote for continuing the pain.
Currency then Code of Laws I assume. I would hold the whip until courthouses are available. We should instead look at employing specialists to get the most out of representation.
Got it BTW. Will play tomorrow night (about 20 hours or so).
Complete score on Metal Casing and buddhist shrine and Pyramids!!
I would like to see Charly removed from the game now (whether we capture or raze his last cities), so i vote for continuing the pain.
Currency then Code of Laws I assume. I would hold the whip until courthouses are available. We should instead look at employing specialists to get the most out of representation.
Got it BTW. Will play tomorrow night (about 20 hours or so).
darrelljs
Immortal
Holy catfish what a great turnset! Charlemagne got the Farseer slingshot, but so did you 
. The cherry on top will be if he settles the GG in Bombay.
Bombay has 3 Cows and a floodplains, so I think we should keep going until it is ours. Agra is going to be a major PITA to take out, but if you feel up to the pain go for it!
We definiltey want to pick up Monarchy (and Mathematics) immediately as it gets us closer to Knights. In fact, all we need to research is Machinery, Feudalism and then Guilds. I don't see any reason not to beeline those techs after we get CoL.
Darrell
. The cherry on top will be if he settles the GG in Bombay.Bombay has 3 Cows and a floodplains, so I think we should keep going until it is ours. Agra is going to be a major PITA to take out, but if you feel up to the pain go for it!
We definiltey want to pick up Monarchy (and Mathematics) immediately as it gets us closer to Knights. In fact, all we need to research is Machinery, Feudalism and then Guilds. I don't see any reason not to beeline those techs after we get CoL.
Darrell
darrelljs
Immortal
Oh, one more thing...we should switch our EPs away from Charlemagne if we haven't already.
Darrell
Darrell
Talk about turns worth the wait -- very VERY nice, Jabah. All kinds of scores there. Casualties are to be expected -- we just need to be in a position to be able to replace them. Mongols were a WAVE of units, remember. 
I would whip forges. A 2-pop (or even 3) whip giving extra happy and making later whips more effective and allowing more things to be built in the interim? I'll sacrifice some specialists for that. Especially since the pop will grow back.
Delhi, of course, needs a marketplace, ASAP. And we should maybe adopt Buddhism and work to spread it internally and get some OR benefits from it. It's a risk on emperor, but Pacal is also Buddhist, so we could probably make it work. I'm not convinced but I wanted to open the possibility. The extra happiness wouldn't be amiss either.
Before continuing the war, I would check the tiles around Bombay. If it's going to be immediately culture-crushed by Pacal, it's probably not worth it. If we can get its immediate ring (and stuff north), and might be able to push back to close to its BFC, it almost assuredly is worth grabbing.
Tech plans -- I like trading for Math and Monarchy, with MC. Techwise, learn Currency -> CoL -> Machinery, at least. Going Feudalism and Guilds after that seems to make sense now. Trading for CS, for Bureaucracy and spreading irrigation, would seem to make sense at that point. I'm not the fondest about ignoring the Aesthetics branch, but getting knights ASAP seems very nice. After Guilds, we might need/want to beeline Military Tradition. For now, though, just Currency -> CoL (maybe to Machinery) will be sufficient.
No worries on 10 turns. I'd rather see 10 solid turns in good time than 15 rushed turns late. Good judgment. Thanks.
As for the barb city, I think we're ready to go into major expansion mode. With Rep and a shrine, new cities can pay for themselves extremely rapidly. I would capture, once we can spare the military. I would also start filling in the NW. More cities also means more courthouses, which means more EPs, which means more ability to cause revolts and/or steal technologies. Currency also helps cities pay for themselves. After the end of the Charle war, I would agitate for some fairly major settling expansion.
Roster:
Arathorn
darrelljs
Jabah
Ozbenno -- UP NOW (and "got it")
Kylearan -- on deck
Arathorn
I would whip forges. A 2-pop (or even 3) whip giving extra happy and making later whips more effective and allowing more things to be built in the interim? I'll sacrifice some specialists for that. Especially since the pop will grow back.
Delhi, of course, needs a marketplace, ASAP. And we should maybe adopt Buddhism and work to spread it internally and get some OR benefits from it. It's a risk on emperor, but Pacal is also Buddhist, so we could probably make it work. I'm not convinced but I wanted to open the possibility. The extra happiness wouldn't be amiss either.
Before continuing the war, I would check the tiles around Bombay. If it's going to be immediately culture-crushed by Pacal, it's probably not worth it. If we can get its immediate ring (and stuff north), and might be able to push back to close to its BFC, it almost assuredly is worth grabbing.
Tech plans -- I like trading for Math and Monarchy, with MC. Techwise, learn Currency -> CoL -> Machinery, at least. Going Feudalism and Guilds after that seems to make sense now. Trading for CS, for Bureaucracy and spreading irrigation, would seem to make sense at that point. I'm not the fondest about ignoring the Aesthetics branch, but getting knights ASAP seems very nice. After Guilds, we might need/want to beeline Military Tradition. For now, though, just Currency -> CoL (maybe to Machinery) will be sufficient.
No worries on 10 turns. I'd rather see 10 solid turns in good time than 15 rushed turns late. Good judgment. Thanks.
As for the barb city, I think we're ready to go into major expansion mode. With Rep and a shrine, new cities can pay for themselves extremely rapidly. I would capture, once we can spare the military. I would also start filling in the NW. More cities also means more courthouses, which means more EPs, which means more ability to cause revolts and/or steal technologies. Currency also helps cities pay for themselves. After the end of the Charle war, I would agitate for some fairly major settling expansion.
Roster:
Arathorn
darrelljs
Jabah
Ozbenno -- UP NOW (and "got it")
Kylearan -- on deck
Arathorn
Jabah
Emperor
casualties were very low, just th e2 keshiks against Dehli. Attacking bombay on the other hand will be very bloody...
EP are still on Charlemagne, as we will need the 5t stationary bonus to have a chance to incite a revolt, and the price is rising fast (I guess Charlemagne is spending EP against us).
I think I used to whip only once, to get a faster Ger in food-city. But we should consider it for forge, and courthouse (and market in Dehli).
We need also a bit more workers, as I pillage a lot in Charlemagne lands (I wanted the money and didn't want Ragnar to waste time doing it) and we also have most of his former cities un-improved.
Jabah
EP are still on Charlemagne, as we will need the 5t stationary bonus to have a chance to incite a revolt, and the price is rising fast (I guess Charlemagne is spending EP against us).
I think I used to whip only once, to get a faster Ger in food-city. But we should consider it for forge, and courthouse (and market in Dehli).
We need also a bit more workers, as I pillage a lot in Charlemagne lands (I wanted the money and didn't want Ragnar to waste time doing it) and we also have most of his former cities un-improved.
Jabah
Jabah
Emperor
One more thing...
I am away (skiing) from Satursday 15th to Satursday 22nd (both included).
So auto-skip me during next week...
Jabah
I am away (skiing) from Satursday 15th to Satursday 22nd (both included).
So auto-skip me during next week...
Jabah
Kylearan
compound eye
Great turnset indeed! 
I vote for adopting Buddhism, mainly because I never adopt any religion normally and would like to do so for a change.
As Arathorn said, with Pacal Buddhist too, it might work. And it's not that we aim for a peaceful game anyway...
-Kylearan
I vote for adopting Buddhism, mainly because I never adopt any religion normally and would like to do so for a change.
As Arathorn said, with Pacal Buddhist too, it might work. And it's not that we aim for a peaceful game anyway...-Kylearan
Our econom ain't the greatest at the moment (+4gpt at 30%), so one more city (Bombay) might be all we need for the moment. City maintenance is our killer, so Code of Laws will be well welcome.
Speaking of which, after I press enter, I select it as our next tech as Currency completes.
Pacal declares on us as well.
Charlemange has vassalized himself to him.
I trade aound Metal Casing and get Mathematics, Aesthetics, Monarchy and 180 gold. I then up the slider to 100% research as we can afford Code of Laws now.
Charly has an impressive array of troops in Bombay now. We can't afford to lower the defenses either with our spy either.
Pacal has but one troop threaten our borders.
Run away, run away! He disappears next turn
Couple of turns later before we amass the points.
We can't do anything here. We may have had a chance at the start (but also may have destroyed all our troops without taking Delhi)
With 1 turn left on Code of Laws, I whip some forges for the overflow to go into courthouses.
I stop there. I have selected Machinery as next tech but it is 31 turns away at 60% research. No beakers invested.
Pacal refuses to talk. I have been pillaging his countryside but can't really mount an attack of worth anywhere, just a couple of exposed troops here and there and a worker. Didn't lose any keshiks but didn't really do much damage.
The barb city is still at size 1. There are Keshiks on hand to capture when it grows.
I think now we have to grow and build infrastructure until we can get our knights off the ground and start up settlers to fill in the north west.
We just have to get peace first.
Speaking of which, after I press enter, I select it as our next tech as Currency completes.
Pacal declares on us as well.
Charlemange has vassalized himself to him.
I trade aound Metal Casing and get Mathematics, Aesthetics, Monarchy and 180 gold. I then up the slider to 100% research as we can afford Code of Laws now.
Charly has an impressive array of troops in Bombay now. We can't afford to lower the defenses either with our spy either.
Pacal has but one troop threaten our borders.
Run away, run away! He disappears next turn
Couple of turns later before we amass the points.
We can't do anything here. We may have had a chance at the start (but also may have destroyed all our troops without taking Delhi)
With 1 turn left on Code of Laws, I whip some forges for the overflow to go into courthouses.
I stop there. I have selected Machinery as next tech but it is 31 turns away at 60% research. No beakers invested.
Pacal refuses to talk. I have been pillaging his countryside but can't really mount an attack of worth anywhere, just a couple of exposed troops here and there and a worker. Didn't lose any keshiks but didn't really do much damage.
The barb city is still at size 1. There are Keshiks on hand to capture when it grows.
I think now we have to grow and build infrastructure until we can get our knights off the ground and start up settlers to fill in the north west.
We just have to get peace first.
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