LotR26 Mounted Mongols

[darrelljs]

One more thought, if we ever do trade for Feudalism, we should adopt Vassalage right away and never leave. Being Organized, the biggest pain of the civic is blunted, and being Charismatic with a Ger and Barracks means units come out the gate with 3 (!) promotions. Really, an oustanding choice of Leader/Civ for this game Arathorn !

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

Things are looking good.

Beshbalik is a good call for HE (and probably West Point as well).

New cities pink/red/green in that order seems good.

 

[darrelljs]

Beshbalik is a good call for HE (and probably West Point as well).

What is it...13 XPs for the 4th promotion? That would be exact, we wouldn't even need an MI . Still, even if we slingshot MT (and with the GL, it will either be that or Nationalism so not much difference), do we think the 600 hammers would be better invested in 5.333 Cuirassier(s) ?

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

It is a tough call on West Point in most games for those reasons. As we have no access to seige weapons, our advantage has to come with better promoted units or better quantity of units. We'll have to make a call closer to MT, which is better for us.

 

[Kylearan]

Beshbalik for the HE would be my vote too. At least one cottage there is my doing. There are so few tiles for cottages on that map that I thought we need to get at least some going for the later stages of the game, but we can of course farm over them there if needed.

Good point about vassalage - I'm definitely looking forward to our triple promoted knights.

-Kylearan

 

[Arathorn]

I started by whipping the Great Library. It's too important to miss by a few turns. Judging by the cash I saw the next turn, it would've been close. I'm not entirely sure it was necessary, but I felt better doing it.

I finished up Machinery, put a turn into Feudalism to cheapen its price, and then traded Qin Code of Laws, Currency, and 50 gold to get Feudalism. Before, he'd demanded Aesthetics, too. I know CoL and Currency helps him out, but I couldn't replace one of those with Aesthetics. Sorry. Guilds are still 15ish turns out, with normal spending. At that point, Delhi gets a grocer and many cities start building knights, I believe.

Somewhere in there, Charlemagne culture-bombed Bombay or had some major cultural expansions or something and Delhi is pushed back to minimal squares. Once we get knights, we need to finish off Charlemagne to allow our existing cities to flourish.

Beshbalik just completed Heroic Epic, after working on it nearly my entire turn. It should be able to crank a slew of units, even knights, hopefully, once we get there. Growth vs. hammers now is an interesting choice there. I've tried to strike a balance, but we should maybe grow a bit more.

Pink, red, and green dots were all founded (not in that order). They're all busily working on granaries. We need more missionaries, though I did get some Buddhism spread. Blue dot is still a possibility, because 2 silver is worth, as I see it, 12 gpt. I'd pay 6 gpt for 2 happies in nearly all our cities. And we can sell the other one for close to 6 gpt. I'd found it, in a personal game. But I don't have another settler under construction, currently. Blue dot won't go away really soon and it won't help our production very quickly. Something to discuss.

I have a worker going north of Charlemagne's cities. He's trying to get to Patilaputra, to get the wine there online and help that city. It's a reasonably long walk, but I think it's worth it. Maybe not. I did farm over some cottages by Beshbalik. Once we get Civil Service, we may farm another grassland there.

I did not get any spies built. I wanted to. I did throw in a monastery or two, for science and to be able to continue spreading buddhism all game. I also got us into Vassalage, so we can crank very good units.

A mistake to be remedied is that our medic chariot is up defending a new city. Grabbed the wrong one. That should be remedied. And we probably need a bit of military focus, potentially even before knights.

Roster:
Arathorn
darrelljs -- UP NOW
Jabah -- out 3/15 - 3/22
Ozbenno -- on deck
Kylearan

Arathorn

 

[darrelljs]

Got it...looks like nice progress. I see some primarily builder turns in preparation for Ozbenno's Knight fest. I will make some Spies and perhaps a few Keshiks for garrison. I see no reason not to go for the relatively cheap Banking right after Guilds.

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

Blue dot, or no blue dot? That is the question. I took a closer look at the site and one of the Sheep was on a plains hill instead of a desert hill, so it should get three food. That and a grassland farm will let it work both Silver, so I make founding it a priority. More Workers is another priority (although I only built one ), as we have 7 for a 10 city empire. Third priority will be Spies (although I only trained 1.9), and fourth the Hanging Gardens. We've probably waited too long to nab it but Karakorum will be health limited soon enough anyway, and it is a very nice wonder for this map. On the inherited turn I sell de Gaulle Aesthetics for 280 gold. Enjoy it buddy. I also sell Charlemagne Code of Laws for 90 gold. It will be nice if he builds us some Courthouses, but really I just wanted enough cash on hand to be able to deficit research Guilds at 100%. Now due in 10. Final action is to whip Granary in Phoenecian, then I hit enter.

This was the turnset to get many requests, and I ended up turning them all down. First, Pacal wanted us to cancel deals with de Gaulle. Uh, no weed boy. Then Ragnar wanted us to cancel deals with Pacal. That one was tempting, but I didn't seen any point to it. The next turn the idiots made peace. We need to keep an eye on WHEOOH with both those jokers. Finally, Charlemagne wanted us to cancel our deals with de Gaulle. Geez, what is it with these guys. On turn 215, Qin founds Taoism. I think he slow researched it, I didn't see a GS born anywhere. Not good for a Liberalism grab, but I guess in this game that was a needless detour anyway. The next turn the Hanging Gardens are built in a far away land . That sucks, I shouldn't have sunk all those hammers in an Aqueduct. The darn thing is two turns away from finishing; I let it. Turn 217, and Pacal builds the Statue of Zeus. Ragnar immediately makes peace . So, I would not think Pacal makes a lot of sense now, even though we do have access to Police State. Whipping units under Police State might be fun . Well, I think the next war should be to finish off Charlemagne while setting the stage for a showdown with Qin, but any path has its merits. I say Qin to justify what I did with our Great Spy that was born on turn 219. He is marching that away, with the intent of doing some bombing and good old fashioned tech stealing. He can do it on the inherited turn, I would also suggest making this trade:

Here is the overall tech situation:

As to why Qin? Well after stealing Philo and Calendar and Engineering (he'll get it next turn) we'll still have enough of the bomb left over for involting his cities. Not a very good plan. Actually, it is a pretty weak plan, but I don't want to take on the SoZ and Ragnar's lands are garbage. Thoughts?

For the lurkers, here is our east:

And our west:

Darrell

P.S. I moved all our EPs to Charlemagne, we are still way too light on that count.

 

[Arathorn]

Roster:
Arathorn
darrelljs
Jabah -- out 3/15 - 3/22
Ozbenno -- UP NOW
Kylearan -- on deck

Knights are nice. We should be able to take out longbow-defended cities now. Probably not without casualties, but flanking II can go a long ways to minimizing those.

For the Great Spy, do we want to settle him again? Make a Scotland Yard? The bomb is quite tempting, though I lean more towards more city revolts and fewer tech steals that way (unless Qin has a Buddhist city near us and isn't Buddhist, which saves ~25% on EP cost). Pacal would be good to steal from...if he wasn't Buddhist, which cuts our bonus for Buddhist cities.

I would agitate for taking out Charlemagne as soon as is at all feasible. Hopefully we can train our troops on those forces and really clear up our defensive lines. That can techincally qualify as our knight war, since Charlemagne has 3 cities, but I'd like us to be ready to extend beyond that. Qin would be natural. Ragnar is backwards enough to be a good Curaissier target, IMO. Pacal would be nice for shape, but he might be difficult. I think we should decide on a secondary target (beyond Charlemagne), bomb him, and push as far as we can with knights. I can't look at the game right now, so I won't comment on choice intelligently. Unintelligently, I like Pacal for empire shape and quality of land.

For our dearth of workers, I think I'd put Turfan on that duty. It can get insane amounts of food/shields with no specialists and can get out workers pretty quickly, I would think. We definitely need a lot more. I tried to build one, but we need more than that. Turfan seems the logical choice now. Later, Ning-hsia would be good for that, I believe.

That trade is hard to turn down, I agree. I'd vote in favor of it. Spreading irrigation will be nice and will help some resources without fresh water.

Arathorn

 

[Ozbenno]

OK got it.

A spy bomb on Qin would be good. Calendar, Engineering and Philosophy would be good additions. What about our own research? After Banking do we want to try for Liberalism (taking Nationalism)? Paper would be next then.

Not sure about the next target but agree we need to hit fast after disposing Charly. As it'll be unlikely that I'll get that far, I'll have a look at the lay of the land while playing.

 

[Arathorn]

Techwise, we need to get to Military Tradition, however we can best do that (I agree Banking first will probably speed us there, though). We're oddly situated for a Liberalism run. I'm not sure it's possible. We might be better off researching Nationalism directly, once we get the appropriate techs. I so rarely get Mil Trad, I'm not even sure what all the prereqs are. That's one reason for this game. I know we need Drama, so that wouldn't be bad to get either, but we might be able to get it in trade. Theatres are almost always good investments, too, for happiness and war weariness fighting.

Arathorn

 

[Ozbenno]

Pre-reqs are Music (Peter has this) and Nationalism. We need Paper eventually to get to Rifling for Cossacks.

If we don't fancy the Liberalism run, we should steal Philosophy, trade for Civil Service and hand research Nationalism, try to steal/trade for Music and see where we are. A Liberalism run for Military Tradition may be on the cards.

 

[darrelljs]

I had planned on typing up a tech path analysis tomorrow, but for now here are my thoughts. I think Liberalism is a detour we don't really need. For sure we need the techs to unlock our mounted units, but beyond that the list is pretty sure. Civil Service for sure to chain irrigation. Engineering for road movement. Maybe Constitution for Jails, since it is only one tech more. Definitely Drama for Theaters and the culture slider. Fascism, Biology and Communism would all be useful, but I'm not sure we won't be better off shutting down research after we have Calvarly and going into Police State and full military production mode.

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

The idea of the Mongol hordes having knights tickles my fancy somewhat, so I think some Mongol knight naming is to be done as they mass on the Charly border.

I bomb Qin. He is the tech leader and isn't Buddhist.



I also pull off the trade.



Our plans to attack Charly are derailed. The newly-named knights are sent south.



Banking comes in, replaced by confusion as to what we want. We need to steal Philosophy and Calendar to make the bomb worth it against Qin, so I select Music, even though Peter has it, he won't trade. I actually switch research down to 0% to upgrade some keshiks to knights as well.

BTW, Charly is a Pacal vassal again, so we need to take that into account if we re-declare.

Here's Ragnar's stack, no pikes or spears . I'll ambush them with my knights.



Our EPs are switched to Ragnar and a spy dispatched.

He disappears back into Ragnar-land next turn . Coward!

I move the knights to inside his borders and find the stack, killing a few and flanking the seige beautifully

He mass attacks IBT and is wiped out, generating a GG. Merging in Beshbalik seems the best and I have left him there for discussion.



We take the fight into Ragnar's territory. Take Narjan without losses.



Charly and Pacal join the war, on our side for a change and start taking some cities as well.

I make a possible blunder in assuming that this city had been whipped down to size 1. It hadn't. In any case I don't think we really want it, as this war is just a distraction and a good chance of getting some free XP before we take down Charly.



If we get peace now (not a great offer I thought I had a piccie but think it was 50 gold and 2gpt) and pounce on Charly, hopefully Pacal will be tied up with finishing Ragnar off and we will have an opportunity for getting that territory back.

I steal Philosophy last turn.



Have another spy heading back to Qin and one on the border with Charly for that war and one down with the knights in Ragnarland not really doing much. EPs have been switched back to Charly.

A possible deal. Note he has pikes (can see one).



We've got a few turns left on Music, then Nationalism I assume.

All in all the knights are great, haven't lost one yet and haven't had a battle where the odds were less than 75% .

The question is to continue or switch targets? I think switch.

Further down the track I think we should look at Pacal after Charly (see what we can do with knights) and then finish of what's left of Ragnar. We will need to start building up a better economy as well.

 

[darrelljs]

Looks good Ozbenno, I didn't think I left you enough troops to fight a war so I'm guessing you had to do some whipping? I won't be able to look at the save but I trust Kylearan's judgement.

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

Didn't use the whip once. I neglected all infrastructure and upgraded a few Keshiks. Beshbalik is producing a knight every 3 turns.

 

[Kylearan]

Looks good! Not losing a single knight is really incredible.

Interesting choice to bomb Qin instead of building Scotland Yard; unfortunately I was away and unable to take part in that discussion. Looks like the short-term benefits might outweigh the long-term benefits of Scotland Yard, though.

Charly being a vassal again sucks, but we need to straighten our borders so let's see what I can do. Got the game, although I'm not sure I will have time to play today. I will have time to do so tomorrow though.

-Kylearan

 

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I'm sorry to let you wait, but RL just stole my spare time for this evening and I need an extension. I'll play in about 14 hours.

-Kylearan

 

[Arathorn]

No problem, Ky. Thanks for the update.

Arathorn

 

[Kylearan]

It's real fun for me how the variant affects the research path: I usually don't have banking so early and go for liberalism instead. Neglecting Liberalism is nice for a change! I'm a little bit concernced that we have so many farms and so few cottages however; I hope that won't haunt us later in the game.

I'd like to declare war on Charlemagne while his master is still at war with Ragnar, so I make peace with Ragnar for 50 gold and 2gpt. Fixing our eastern borders has a higher priority than expanding further southwards, in my opinion. I shut down research to upgrade two keshiks in Pataliputra, which is isolated and hard to defend, and merge the GG into Beshbalik.
I'm amazed to see our supermedic chariot is in Delhi instead with our fighting army? Instead, we have a medic II knight down south?

960AD: Pacal completes the Shwedagon Paya. But more important, Charly is a souvereign state again! Yay!

I trade Philo to Charly for Drama and Compass, and stop spies on goto. Please do not leave units on goto, thanks!

970AD: Peter demands Guilds, but I refuse.

1000AD: Damn, our spy in Calcutta is caught.

1010AD: Music completes, and I start us on Nationalism.

1020: Qin gets Drama for 120 gold, and we get an event that improves our market in Delhi.

And finally all our forces are healed and positioned, so I sell Music to Charlemagne for 110 gold, then declare war. Attack Calcutta: Win a 68% fight, then lose a 75% fight with a Flanking II/combat I knight. Then, Calcutta falls.

Afterwards I realize I should probably have razed the city, sorry.

I also capture 2 workers and kill a sword that was guarding one of the workers.

1030AD: Peter renounces the protection of de Gaulle. (Huh? He was a vassal? ) A catapult and a longbow get killed in the open.

1040AD: Peter becomes a vassal of de Gaulle again. Yeah...right.

Our spy incites a revolt in Agra. A flanking II/combat I knight attacks pike...and dies. I've yet to play a game where flanking was helpful... The rest of the knights kill the pike, a longbow, two archers and an axe, and Agra is ours.

It comes with a granary, forge, and colosseum. Nice!

1050AD: de Gaulle completes the Colossus. Congratulations, well done!

I spread buddhism in calcutta with a missionary, and one of our spies on his way to Bombay gets caught. Another worker gets integrated into the Mongolian society.

1060AD: Charly builds trebs and axes and no pikes, which is very nice of him...

1070AD: Incite revolt in Bombay.
Flanking II/C1 knight dies of course.
C3 knight dies, then the spear, longbow, axe, trebuchet and the wounded longbow get all killed without further losses on our side. Bombay with its granary, forge, courthouse and aqueduct is ours, and Charlemagne is no more!

The rest of my turns were spent healing our units, and scouting out Pacal's border cities. Espionage has been set exclusively to Pacal, and Arathorn can declare war on him during his turns.

His cities are weakly defended. Unfortunately, most of our knights are on his eastern borders. So Arathorn could either declare right away on the inherited turn and capture Pacal's northern city immediately and advance on Angkor Thorn with a sizable force, or he can produce/move more knights to his western border, positioning them so that he can capture three cities on the first turn of the war.

Here's the power graph, supporting the idea of a war against Pacal:

Unfortunately we lost some spies during my turns, and none made it to Qin's lands to steal more techs. That should be remedied.

The Save

Roster:
Arathorn -- UP NOW
darrelljs -- on deck
Jabah -- out 3/15 - 3/22
Ozbenno
Kylearan

-Kylearan