LotR26 Mounted Mongols

[Jabah]

Why don't build city (1), 1W instead of 1N, we save the floodplain, we have horse in the 1st ring, and as a bonus, we have hills (and forrest) to mine when/if we have food surplus (which with a farm flood plain could happen every nowand again). (also we gain another farmable river-grassland)

I haven't looked at the save, and could see only darrelljs dotmap, so maybe I am overlooking something ?

Jabah

 

[darrelljs]

Fun turnset. First off, I had to do some math. I hate crunching the numbers, I really prefer to play by feel, but sometimes you just have to do it. Some forum research indicated that barbarians will not enter your cultural borders on Emperor before 2000 B.C., which jived with my recollection. Still, I was not 100% confident on that fact, so I decided to play a few test games just to be sure. Unfortunately worldbuilder spawned barbarians enter your borders from the get go. I ended up playing five games up to 2000 B.C. and never had any issues (in two games barbarian Warriors were on my borders fairly close to the 2000 B.C. mark and never entered). I decided to take the 2000 B.C. date as canon .

Based on this, the fact that Masonry was going to take long enough to allow me to complete both a Worker and a Settler, and the fact that crunched numbers indicated I would still have enough time for a pre 2000 B.C. Great Wall, I took a slightly more aggressive line. I decided to go with Settler first. I played a good old fashioned game of "dodge the Bears" along the way, which delayed founding a few turns (yes, I chose Jabah's spot):

The second Worker from Karakorum is chopping out the grassland Mine:

After he completes that and chops the forest in red (no time to do a chop/mine combo) it will be 2025 B.C. and we'll have The Great Wall . After Masonry I went to Pottery for Granaries, then Archery. Only overflow beakers are invested, I turned research off for one turn. I prefer Mysticism for Obelisks, then probably Writing before we go after Archery/Horseback Riding. Our initial Worker (after mining the Grassland hill at Karakorum), was sent to farm the floodplains rather than pasture the Horse for maximal growth.

He's now on the Horse. The highlighted tile has a partial road built while waiting for the Settler to make it all the way down. Revised dotmap:

We'll be lucky to get #3 OR #4, I see no chance of getting both. BTW, I did NOT revolt to Slavery as I could not afford to lose a turn and beat 2000 B.C. Great Plains maps are fairly food poor and hammer rich, so I'm not sure we want to do a lot of whipping anyway.

Uh...one last thing...keep the Scout around to bust fog, but try not to attract any attention. Just fly casual .

Darrell

 

[Kylearan]

Looks good! Let's hope 2025BC will be fast enough for the Wall (I have seen it fall earlier...). Until then, I will be sitting on the edge of my seat.

I prefer Mysticism for Obelisks

At first I wanted to say how much I hate building obelisks, but then I realized they're called monuments now and provide +1 happiness for us. So I agree with Mysticism next.

-Kylearan

 

[Jabah]

I have it, but I am up in the 3 SG I am playing (Lk140 will be finished after my turn), so I won't play until tomorrow night.

Jabah

 

[Arathorn]

Too bad we just missed that gold to the west. Gold and silver claimable by one city. That could really help our happiness.

I agree with Mysticism as next tech. +1 happy because we're charismatic makes 'em worthwhile. There's absolutely no reason to go Archery before HBR, though. HBR at least allows us Gers (our "uber"-stables). Archery provides nothing.

Writing before HBR/Archery? This is a key decision. I think with going Mysticism, we're not going to have a prayer of getting a civ eliminated before spears, so we might have to wait for alphabet for our first major war. We should be barb safe with Great Wall. And we can crank some chariots to placate our citizens (and to help with the eventual massive axe force the AIs inevitably create), while we wait for other techs. I think about 3:1 keshiks:chariots is the way to go. Maybe closer to 1:1 to start and then adding keshiks and leaving chariots to defend cities.

We could just claim city 2 (too good to pass up, IMO) while working on HBR and Archery and then go on the offensive. But I think we're already a bit late for that. I'd go for city 2, see if we can grab silver/gold for happiness, and use 4 cities to build up for a keshik rush. Mysticism to Writing to HBR to Archery to Alphabet would be my current tech plan, with that in mind.

As for the wall, one test game on GPlains, it didn't fall until 1000 BC and another was around 1800 BC, so I think we may well make it. But it depends some on opposition and stone. De Gaulle and Qin are both industrious. It'll be tight! Can't wait.

Roster:
Arathorn
darrelljs
Jabah -- has it (for 20) on 3/4
Ozbenno -- on deck (for 20)
Kylearan

Arathorn

 

[Cheron]

lurker's comment:

@Kylearan: IIRC human barbs start to appear, when there is an average of 1,5 cities per civ and enter culture borders 2+ tiles (and therefore may attack cities) only at 3 cities per civ.
All that was stated by Klarius of team "Murky Waters" (whose thread is a very good read btw!) in the current WSGOTM(6). Note, that the SGOTM was played using Warlords, though, so thing may have changed a bit. Nonetheless you should be on the safe side until you found your third city (if you don't delay it much, that is).

disclaimer: I don't take response for anything, including sudden barb city captures, though...

edit: See around here for klarius' clarification on the matter

 

[darrelljs]

Note, barb warriors will not enter our land until there are 3 cities per civ alive, unless there is something to pillage or attack on the border. So not before we have improved the cow.

.

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

We should scout Charlemange before making too many decisions. If he doesn't have copper available (hopefully our city #4 is his closest source), we should rush him quickly. If he does, then we'll need more Keshiks. I must admit I'd prefer HBR/Archery before Mysticism/Writing as delaying will negate somewhat our unit advantage but can live with it

 

[Jabah]

T0 (2250BC - T70)

Change research to horseRiding (from Archery), just to have the option of Ger earlier.
edit : I missed the discussion about Mysticism first, but even after considering it, I realised we had plenty of things to build immediatly before monument.
Set research to 50% to earn some money until we have around 40-50g then stay at stable rate.

T3
The eastern scout ends his moves in jungle next to a damaged barbarian warrior and despite being slightly favored he dies.

T5
cultural push shows a sheep west (in fact 3) and a barbarian village (hut+warrior).
In fact there are still a lot of room West of our position (not the most fertile, but definitively the richest).
Another copper not too far away South-East (several spotted during my turns from straight South to South-East)

T6
Horse connected, chariot started

T9

GWall is finished.
karakorum start another settler.

Charlemagne has founded a city next to the stone
and has connected a copper somewhere south.

T16
Our first attack

The villagers are hostiles , but since it was on a plain, the chariot still can move and manage to escape

T17
Found Turfan, 1N compare to the dotmap, to get the cow that would be wasted because of Charlemagne's city.
(despite sharing a wheat and already having a cow, it will need culture, so I am not that sure that it was the best location)

T18
Spot a axe from Charlemagne, wandering alone in the open next to the hill on its border.
Pacal wants open border (he has writting then), ok

T20 (1750BC - T90)
Pacal wants to trade Masonry for Archery, I would say yes since we need it and have 0 research ability... but I let it for next player (offer still valid)
I won't be too afraid of trading, since we will have lots of negative opinions before hitting the 'too advanced' reason.
The scarry part is that means he has Alphabet already...

We desesperately needed some commerce to stay in the game...
Maybe we should settle around the silver and gold to get some commerce, but the sheep are on desert hills, so even with a pasture it will be only 2 food.
There are also lots of flood plains down south.

We now have 3 chariot (2 in production).
barbarian archers are already around.

We also need culture (research mysticism quickly now before finishing HorseRiding) but our cities have still several thing to build before a monument

And I realised we still haven't revolted to Slavery (should have done that after GWall).

Jabah

Save attached

 

[Jabah]

Maybe (if we want to build more city), the next one could be (1N of Copper - 1W of Wines). Fit perfectly in the AIs dotmap, is connected by water and prevent easy copper for (Pacal or DeGaulle)

 

[Arathorn]

On this map, wasting a cow is not a terrible thing to do. There are LOTS of cows around. I would've stuck with the original dotmap. Oh well. We'll make it work.

Good to see actual units being produced. We should, at some point, squeeze in barracks, so that some chariots will be actual combat units and not just military presence to keep people happy.

On Slavery, unless we're actually wanting to whip (and I've not seen that desire/need yet), it's not worth switching to. Those slave revolts can be nasty. BUT if there's benefit to be gained from whipping, we should switch immediately, yes.

I like to see the quick cash grab. It's wise to have some on hand for emergencies. Nice move.

I would do the trade with Pacal. If it speeds us to keshiks, it's probably worthwhile.

Founding in the west means fewer units. I think we're going to need everything we can get our hands on to take out Charlemagne. It's time to be focusing on that, I believe, and not founding more cities. More cities in the west (or east) can either be founded or captured, but only after Charlemagne's cities are our cities. We can't put it off much longer and still be uber-effective. That said, I would agree to slip Mysticism in immediately and then go back to HBR.

I'm glad to see the GWall ours. Not needing to worry about barbarian incursion really can let us focus our military on one goal. Plus, getting those early great spy points will be really nice. I am definitely liking the idea of an espionage economy this game. The way I run an EE is to tech mostly like normal until Education, but not really build any universities/observatories. That saves a TON of shields. At that point (or maybe just after Liberalism, if we can get it), we go to more espionage spending, while still trying to get Constitution for jails. It's very effective at Monarch...not sure about Emperor. Capturing a holy city (Charlemagne's, in this case), can help immensely with stealing, too, with targeted religion spread.

Roster:
Arathorn
darrelljs
Jabah
Ozbenno -- UP NOW (for 20)
Kylearan -- on deck (for 20)

Arathorn

 

[darrelljs]

Hmm...the silver lining about 1N is it leaves a Wheat for the southern Copper city. I agree with Arathorn that it is probably time to go after Charlemagne, but I'll play devil's advocate for a second and discuss peaceful expansion. First off, I think we would prioritize Writing and Alphabet over HBR. We'd peacefully found another pair of cities. I'm not sure we need the happy of the Silver/Gold/Fur yet, so I would think we'd found Wheat/Cow/Copper to the south of Turfan and double Wheat to the north of Turfan. With Alphabet and a settled Great Spy we can target all EPs at Charlemagne and use Spies to incite revolts. Also, we'll have enough avenues of research (scientist specialists and build research) that even if we have to set our slider low we can still tech through the Mathematics (hopefully via trade) -> Currency -> Code of Laws path.

All that said, I believe if Charlemagne still has his pants down we should hit him hard and fast. We are still at nearly positive cash with a 70% slider, and hopefully we'll get enough from taking his cities to deficit research at least through Alphabet. It might be a good idea to scout around with a Chariot or two and try to see what his garrisons are like. That would be another good reason to get Writing before HBR (open borders).

Regarding Slavery, to me it comes down to whether or not we have Code of Laws. With it, we'll probably want to whip half cost Courthouses in our newly conquered cities.

Darrell

 

[Jabah]

Let me try to defend (weakly) the position of Turfan.
Cows are one of the few 'high' production tiles and producion is what is quite difficult to find in the middle of this map, so swapping a (4th) wheat for a (2nd) cow seems good to me. On the other hand, needing the culture to work (the last) 2 wheat and 1 cow is bad.
Slavery would be good to whip granary (then barrack+ger) and regrowth fast since we are quite food heavy, (and will be hammer poor in the plain).

Jabah

 

[Arathorn]

Turfan will work. It'll be fine. Wouldn't have been my choice, but I'd rather people do what they think is right than try to get consensus on everything. I'm looking for fun and moving the game along here, not the perfect game or complete consensus or anything like that. Having people do things then explain also teaches me! I can see how they work out, long-term.

Peaceful vs. military...if we weren't doing a mounted variant, I think I'd be arguing for the peaceful expansion. There are some nice sites out there. But since we're pretty limited on military options (the gap between keshiks and knights is LLOOONNNGGG -- and keshiks vs. maces/pikes is not good at all for us), I think we need to push now. Charle's cities plus another one-three we can found "behind the lines" will hopefully help propel us to knights, when we can take a few more cities. But if we wait, our necessary/required-by-wacky-variant-maker keshik-war will be much more painful.

Yeah, if we're food-heavy and hammer-poor (fairly typical for great plains), slavery is a good way to go to get some needed production. I've not looked at the save yet, but I imagine that's the case. I'm just not in quite as much of a hurry to get to Slavery as I used to be.

Arathorn

 

[darrelljs]

I'd rather people do what they think is right than try to get consensus on everything. I'm looking for fun and moving the game along here, not the perfect game or complete consensus or anything like that.

Yeah...I'm fairly guilty of that on my turnset, but I wanted to make sure I didn't take a gamble no one approved of (which I did anyway!).

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

OK Got it!

Will be able to play along tonight. I think we just build up to the Charly wars (although the three sheep/gold/fur city looks good).

 

[Ozbenno]

Upon loading the save, I first notice our anemic research. I do a bit of MMing and manage to knock a couple of turns of HBR (now 23). Some cottages might be in order.

My turns don't start well, when the first unit I move finds a welcoming party.



And dies.

We spot a hut.



And get a map

Our eastern scout also dies.

He shoots, he scores



Play a quick 20, trying to get granaries and barracks in our cities (to limited success). HBR comes in last turn. I select Mysticism but no beakers invested.



I start Ger's before Keshiks.



Slavery might be needed now to quickly whip some infrasturcture and Keshiks.



Longer term, we might need to be looking at heading Code of Laws way as we're going to struggle to stay afloat financially with our soon-to-be-expanded empire. Alphabet and Currency will be a good investments too.

I built some cottages just to get some research going, these may need to be farmed over eventually.

Time to build us an army

 

[Kylearan]

I see the game, and will comment further in a couple of hours before playing tomorrow.

 

[Kylearan]

Okay, after actually reading what has happened , it looks like my task is to build up an army for Arathorn to use against Charly. Whether I will switch to slavery and use the whip to do so I cannot say before opening the save, though.

While I would agree with darrelljs' devil's advocate view in normal games, I'm glad we've decided to make war instead here, considering our variant. I suspect by the time we will be ready, Charly will be better defended as well - but we will see.

After Mysticism, it seems like Writing next is the consensus. What then, though? CoL would indeed be nice to have, but going for Alphabet and using the pie bomb to acquire CoL might be even better - hoping that an AI goes for CoL, that is.

I'll play in about 15 hours, and will check the forum before playing.

-Kylearan

 

[darrelljs]

After Mysticism, it seems like Writing next is the consensus. What then, though? CoL would indeed be nice to have, but going for Alphabet and using the pie bomb to acquire CoL might be even better - hoping that an AI goes for CoL, that is.

I would not use the pie bomb, but rather settle the Great Spy. We need EPs all game long to take down enemy defenses. From a tech path perspective, I think we should do Alphabet first to enable spies and to allow us to trade for Mathematics, then I would go for Currency -> Code of Laws. It would be nice to trade for Priesthood prior to starting CoL in order to get the discount .

Darrell