LotR26 Mounted Mongols

[Arathorn]

I like darrell's plan. Settle probably beats Scotland Yard, at this point. Alphabet, Mathematics, Currency, CoL sounds great. Not sure we'll be able to trade for Math, but it'd be a pleasant bonus if we can. We need some culture output at some point, though. Libraries are ... OK but not ideal for that, IMO.

We need to start adding more land. And improving the financial output of the land we have. Currency, of course, is always a big boon, with the extra trade routes.

Arathorn

 

[Ozbenno]

Cultural output can be done originally with monuments (we get the extra happy too). I think libraries are going to be needed though, for the scientists, as our research ain't going to be too flash, we'll need to employ scientists to get something going.

 

[Kylearan]

Our research is slow, but I've changed some tiles for even less commerce and more production nonetheless, as I think we need to attack ASAP. I see no need to revolt to slavery though, as only our capital is food-heavy. The other two cities need a border expansion first - both have a monument now.

I increased our science spendings until we had Mysticism, to get monuments earlier, and set it to break-even again after that. Writing was researched, and we're now looking into Alphabet. Speaking of which, all except Ragnar know the tech now. We also got two demands for HBR which I refused (I hope that was not ), and we still have a monopoly for it. We might think about trading it away?

To get some relationship boni going, I traded our only wheat to de Gaulle for his furs. We should also trade some resources to the others, or even gift some. Most AIs are connected to our trade network by now, and early resource trades would benefit long-term relations.

Buddhism spread to us, but I didn't adopt it. Christianity was FIDL by a great prophet.

I also signed open borders with everyone, and scouted Charlemagne's lands. His defenses are:

Pataliputra: Archer, axeman. (as of 875BC)
Bombay: Archer, swordman (as of 825BC)
Delhi: Archer, archer, spearman, settler(!) (as of 800BC).
Vijayanagra: Archer, archer.

All archers are CG1+Drill (surprise), and one archer in Vijayanagra has CG2 even. This war will be bloody! In addition, a joyous marriage improved the bonds between the Indian and Khmer people - Pacal won't be happy when we attack Charly.

I decided to chop some forests even pre-Mathematics, to speed up the building of our army. We now have 3 keshiks and 2 chariots near Vijayanagra, with another keshik coming out of Karakorum next turn, and another chariot near Charly's connected source of copper.

Note the road network: When we declare war and move the chariot on the copper, he won't be able to move a spear out of the capital to kill it before we have a chance to pillage the following turn.

If not for the cultural defenses, I'd say let's attack in one or two turns, taking Vija and disconnecting Charly's copper. However, the combination of protective and cultural defenses will make this war very bloody, so I'm not sure...it's very risky. I think I'd do it in a private game, though. He will have sent out the settler, and maybe goes into military build-up mode now which we do not want. On the other hand, he will build and whip lots of archers while we heal and regroup after Vijayanagra, which might make it impossible for us to take the capital. But I fear he will do that anyway, only with more spears than archers, if we leave him alone...

Oh, and Charly has an archer wandering around near Beshbalik - keep that in mind when declaring. Here's the power graph:

Here's the save.

Roster:
Arathorn -- UP NOW
darrelljs -- on deck
Jabah
Ozbenno
Kylearan

-Kylearan

 

[uXp.banshee]

Lurker's comment:
good thing about your variant is that you can attack lesser developed cities right on the turn of your DOW

 

[darrelljs]

Fantastic job of scouting out our victim . The trade I'm dying to make is to get Charlemagne back into Tribalism, but he doesn't have Alphabet and in any case the option is redded out with a "surely you must be joking...". I'd go ahead and trade HBR to Peter for Meditation/Iron Working and to Qin for Alphabet. With any luck either Ragnar or Charlemagne have Mathematics which we can trade for (plus Priesthood). We're a long way from our Great Spy and after that a long way before we have enough EPs to fight a sustained war, so I would just go ahead and declare. Damn the torpedos !

Darrell

 

[Jabah]

Regarding the promotion for our troops, what about having a few 'flanking II' to have 50% retreats chance for the highly unwinnable (first) attack on highly promoted archer (kind of our version of catapult).

 

[Kylearan]

Argh, I just noticed that Charlemagne has a mine on a plains tile 2NW of Pataliputra - I guess that's a source of iron we cannot see yet. So much for my idea of pillaging the copper.

Okay, so maybe waiting for a few turns for some more units to attack with might not be that bad after all, as every axe or sword Charly produces is an CG/Drill archer less (our units can be promoted to shock, but not cover). We can only hope not too many spears will be produced. But I also wouldn't mind attacking sooner, as he will outproduce us otherwise.

Trading HBR for Medi/IW and Alphabet sounds good! I had thought along these lines as well, but didn't dare to decide that on my own.

-Kylearan

 

[Arathorn]

Fantastic job of scouting out our victim

I have to echo this. That really is very VERY valuable information. Even when I plan an attack, I don't do nearly enough of this. Thanks for taking care of it.

Regarding the promotion for our troops, what about having a few 'flanking II' to have 50% retreats chance for the highly unwinnable (first) attack on highly promoted archer (kind of our version of catapult).

Absolutely -- if the fights are mostly unwinnable. Flanking II also eliminates first strikes, so that Drill I promotion isn't a concern, if we go that route. Strength 6 units are pretty powerful very early (spears are more unwinnable than archers, generally, even if the cities are on hils).

Our first combat against an archer in Vijay will be against a strength 6.45 unit (3 base strength + 50% city defense (archer ability) + 25% fortify + 20% culture + 20% City Garrison I). With a simple Combat I promotion, our keshiks will have strength 6.6, which gives us pretty good odds of winning the fight (and we should be at 7.2 from Combat II). That gives us a 63% chance of winning that fight (only 58% with Combat I, but dropping to 27% without Combat I). I'm not sure of the retreat math (sorry), but I think combat gives us a better chance of surviving than flanking II in that case. Once we can't get stronger, we'll need flanking units, definitely. But Vijay looks quite takeable with pure combat units.

OOPS! Just now see that the CG2 archer is/was in Vijay. That gives the archer a strength of 7.2, assuming it has the full 5 turn fortification bonus. That gives us under a 50% winning chance with a combat II keshik, so it might be useful to have one flanking II attack first, to try to maximize survival chances.

Argh, I just noticed that Charlemagne has a mine on a plains tile 2NW of Pataliputra - I guess that's a source of iron we cannot see yet. So much for my idea of pillaging the copper.

Well, he has a swordsman, noted in your report, so iron is not particularly surprising! I still think that pillaging is a good plan for that chariot. Charlemagne only has one spear that we know of. And moving on an incomplete road network, with rivers around, at this point in the game, is not particularly fast. The chariot may well be able to pillage the copper and run and also get to the iron to pillage it. I'll certainly give it a try.

but didn't dare to decide that on my own

This seems to the trend in SGs. But I don't like it, at all. In the LotR series, if you see something you like or would do, JUST DO IT! We can deal with the repercussions, good or bad. But not capitalizing on opportunities because you're unsure of the rest of the team's opinions is just as bad or worse. And "something" covers trading techs, declaring wars, starting a wonder, whatever. You might be called to justify your actions, but my goal is for us all to learn (why a move was made can be quite instructive, whether it turns out for good or bad) and have fun. Winning, especially winning early with high score, is significantly less important. This is NOT a competition. [OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.]

As for the timing of the attack, I'm of two minds. Charlemagne is still in expansion mode, as evidenced by his settler. There's still a lot of unclaimed land. So he might be sinking production into things other than combat units (which will change once we declare, I'm sure). OTOH, he outproduces us fairly badly and it will only get worse the longer we wait.

At this point, I'm leaning towards declaring on the inherited turn or my first full turn and moving in full bore. The reinforcement keshik will arrive about the same time as the units from the Vijay attack are healed and they can move out together, either to meet Charlemagne's counter-attack or towards Delhi. Yeah, I'd like more than 5 units to start a war, but sometimes you just gotta go. If all goes well, the pillaging chariot will be able to meet up with the rest of the stack for the bloodiest assault.

Arathorn

 

[darrelljs]

Argh, I just noticed that Charlemagne has a mine on a plains tile 2NW of Pataliputra - I guess that's a source of iron we cannot see yet. So much for my idea of pillaging the copper. :wallbash

Hmm...quite the tricky situation we find ourselves in, isn't it? The BTS AI is pretty good about matching the units it whips against the units you are attacking with. Unlike Horse Archers, Keshiks are not immune to first strike. They do start with one first strike, which will cancel the Archer's first strike, but not the first strike chance from the free Drill promotion. Charlemagne doesn't seem to have any cities on a hill, so an unfortified CG1 Archer will be at 3 + 20% with a first strike chance. A Spear will be at 4 + 100%. I know which I would rather face. I'd suggest we get a Chariot around to that Iron mine so we can take it out immediately. We might want to take the leap into Slavery while waiting for that to happen, in case we need to go whiptastic to make this war pay off. In an ideal case we can take Vijayanagara, Delhi, and Bombay. It fits are variant rules and right now those are the only three cities we would want to keep anyway.

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

Variant: We may only build combat units with movement 2. Non-military units may have any movement, but if they have a combat value, they must move 2. That basically limits us to scouts, chariots, keshiks, knights, cuirassiers, cavalry, tanks, modern armor, and mech infantry for ground troops. All boats and planes are OK, though. We must have one major war (at least 3 cities change hands) with each of keshiks, knights, cuirassiers, and cavalry. Note that spies are allowed, since they are non-combat units.

Highlighting mine...I think we have to get into Slavery and be prepared to whip our cities down to nothing to accomplish this goal here and now.

Darrell

 

[Arathorn]

Couple points/questions....

- We can have our major war later -- knights don't come along for a while. But it'll get more painful the longer we wait, in all likelihood.
- If we still have OB, it'll take about 4 turns to get a chariot from the main stack over near iron to where it can move in and pillage. I'm not convinced it's worth it. But I am starting to think it is, as that chariot can probably rejoin the stack before Delhi is hit.
- Delhi is going to be the hard city, with 60% cultural defense bonuses. A spy would be so useful for that.

As I'm typing this, I'm thinking the delay is worth it. Get alphabet on the IHT and change over a city to producing a spy and focus all EPs on Charlemagne (if we can get enough to revolt Delhi, even with 50% in-place bonus). Plan to pillage two metal squares ASAP and get the spy to Delhi while healing and positioning after Vijay. Pray for a revolt and less Mongol blood and more Indian blood in the Delhi attack.

Note -- we don't have to capture those 3 cities. We can lose cities and accomplish the variant, too. I believe the key to this war will be Delhi, though. UNLESS we go for Bombay and Patil... instead, to accomplish the goal, and leave Delhi to Charlemagne. But I think that's a very bad plan, as Delhi is clearly the cream city to capture.

Arathorn

 

[Kylearan]

Hi,

This seems to the trend in SGs. But I don't like it, at all. In the LotR series, if you see something you like or would do, JUST DO IT!

Will do next time, but that was my first SG turnset in a VERY long time, I needed to get familiar with SGs again and the decision to trade HBR was not so pressing.

About the upcoming war, note that we have only two cities capable of producing military units really, as Turfan has to grow, build barracks and a ger first. Hm...maybe Turfan would be the place to build the spy which doesn't need the barracks/ger first, if this doesn't take too long?

-Kylearan

 

[darrelljs]

If memory serves, a stationary for five turns Spy needs on the order of 200 EPs to inciive revolt. The Great Spy is 23 turns away and after settling we get 12/turn. So we get 4/turn for 23 turns and then 18/turn for 6 turns to get to 200. That is a total of 29 turns.


Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

Echo the thoughts that Delhi should be our goal for the upcoming war. A holy city will be help our expansion if we can get a Shrine for it.

HBR can be a good tech to trade, especially to those who don't have horses!

 

[Arathorn]

The war was semi-successful. I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm glad we're breaking for some discussion.

First, I made some trades.

Spoiler :

but then I couldn't get Meditation anymore. Probably should not have taken Sailing. My bad.

leaving this trade screen.

I also started moving a chariot through Charlemagne's land, so I could pillage iron.

I also checked the EP situation. Delhi would be >350 EPs to revolt. I don't think we'll need to do that or wait so long. I put all EPs to Qin, trying to get visibility into his research. A mistake? You'll see.

We have one iron by Karakorum, already mined. Another by Beshbalik in the BFC was mined and used a fair bit this turnset.

Charlemagne moved the settler out and founded Varanasi, driving me further away from the copper, however. Poor place for a city, but it might get on "the list".

In 650 BC, I declared. I pillaged the iron and moved towards the copper. Axes around, but chariots are pretty good against axes, actually. Defense of Varanasi is/was a single axe.

Also, war led to...

Spoiler :

Not a bad start. No losses, though I had a Flanking II keshik (with a >65% chance of surviving, though only 30ish for winning) win. Killed two archers there (and captured a settler into another needed warrior).

Then I pillaged copper and moved back, while healing in Vijay.

Varanasi was still defended by a single axe. A chariot had a >87% chance of winning. I couldn't resist.

Spoiler :

Partisan was a single warrior which appeared in Delhi (seen by the chariot which had pillaged the iron). Good thing he had no metal!

Then things bogged down for a while. Charlemagne counterattacked a fair bit and I had to kill units in the open. I moved near Delhi and danced around, losing a few units but dragging some units (like the spear) into the open where I could kill them without the 60% defensive bonus.

But that gave him time to build/whip a bunch of archers. By the time I was assembled near Delhi, it had 5 archers defending. We had no shot at that. I moved east.

On my final turn, I popped a Great General, still sitting in Delhi (probably to become an instructor, I'd think). I also captured Patilaputra. Why didn't I raze it? Not sure, honestly. Not one of my finer moments.

Bombay has walls, so is +50%. Delhi's still at +60%. Great Spy coming in 8 turns. No spies built.

Charlemagne will pay Polytheism and Meditation for peace. Not sure about Metal Casting. We have one unhappy face from war weariness. We have met our 3 city required goal.

I managed a pretty good kill ratio, I believe. I might have missed a unit or two, but my records show...
I killed: 3 axes, a sword, a spear, a warrior, and 3 archers.
I lost: 2 chariots, a keshik
3:1 without siege and limited unit types. Best I think I can do.

I see two options for the future.

1. Rest up a bit. Figure a way (either slow or pie bomb EP gathering) to lower the defenses of Delhi and/or Bombay. Or just build a slew of units. Go screaming in and hope/pray for success. Without the 60% defensive bonus, we'll rule. With it, it'll be TOUGH with so many units there. We'll need 15-20 keshiks, probably.

2. Get peace. Build settlers and claim more land peacefully. Wait for knights for next major war (or try again later, when we have EPs and can utilize our production advantage vs. Charlemagne, as this war has really hurt him).

I'm not sure which way I'm leaning at this point. Need to sleep on it.

Save attached, I think, hope. It's http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=170839&stc=1&d=1204943707 I believe.

Arathorn

 

[Ozbenno]

I think we could take the peace now for the techs (pillaging all his cottages first), build up for the final push and then take Charly down when we have the EP to drop city defenses. No-one had Monarchy on the tech tree, so Feudalism (which will make Keshiks useless) is still a long way away hopefully.

How did we get Mathematics BTW?

 

[Kylearan]

Great kill ratio! I feared much higher losses.

I agree with Ozbenno: Make peace, build up, and attack him again when we have the EPs. There's still unclaimed land around, so hopefully Charly will concentrate on expanding again instead of building more military. Capturing Delhi pre-knights would be really nice!

I think you asked in another thread what people like best for screenshots. I'd like to answer here: Having to click "show" all the time is a bit tedious; I prefer cropped screenshots at the appropriate positions in the text.

-Kylearan

 

[darrelljs]

I agree with both Kylearan and Ozbenno, let's take a breather while waiting for EP and Spies, then take Delhi and Bombay with some Spy help. I will play now, as I think we've got enough consensus.

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

Okay, played 15. First off, pulled this peace deal:

Sailing was to get Calendar for our Dyes. I then noticed we couldn't research Calendar (not that I was planning on switching to it). Totally forgot you can research Currency in BTS with just Alphabet . So, we don't have Mathematics yet, and neither AI who owns it is willing to trade it away, including backwards Ragnar. He doesn't have his reasons, he just doesn't like us, so maybe it will be come available in the future. I turn our GG into this:

I'm thinking this is may be useful, and Charismatic let me add the 30% withdrawl to boot! So, next turn I notice Pacal is Pleased and bum Meditation off of him (as far as I know, this does not count towards WFYABTA). After that, I trade HBR which is pretty well known to de Gaulle for Monotheism and Priesthood. Karakorum completes it's Keshik and goes on Spy duty. Beshbalik completes it's Keshik and I can't resist this:

Workers were dispatched to farm the grassland river tile and chop some forests. The Pyramids on this map will be the cat's meow. In anticipation, Turafan goes for a Library after completing it's Chariot. In 335 B.C., Charlemagne births a Great Prophet, and he uses it to build the Mahabodhi . This is fantastic news obviously. In 305 B.C. we get our Great Spy who is settled and our EP rate goes way up (the 3 beakers per turn don't hurt either, especially if they double to six ):

In 215 B.C. backwards Ragnar declares war on broken Charlemagne. It is time to move, things are almost ready. In 200 B.C., the Khmer take out that barbarian SW of Turfan, which frees a Keshik. We have one Spy in Delhi with a 20% stationary discount, and not quite enough EPs to incite a revolt. We have another on the way to Delhi just in case, and a third on the way to Bombay. Here is the tactical situation:

Eastern Force

Western Force

Two turns after delcaring war we should be able to incite Delhi to revolt and take it with few losses. Delhi currently has a C1 Spear and 2 CR2/D1 Archers. If the Spy fails things might be different...waiting for the second Spy is up to you Ozbenno . No clue what is in Bombay . Here is the tech situation:

Currency due in 10, but we'll need a cash influx to keep up our current rate . I'd trade it around for Mondarchy and Mathematics (Stone boosted Hanging Gardens, anyone?), but that might not be populer with the team. Pyramids technically due in 7, but we've got two chops that will drop that to I believe 3. I would triple revolt into Slavery, Organized Religion, and Representation when that happens, and focus on getting up some Marketplaces and Libraries. I really hope we don't lose the wonder . Good luck!

Darrell

 

[darrelljs]

Whoops, I got confused...I'm so used to Ozbenno coming along and cleaning up my mistakes I forgot Jabah is after me .

Darrell