Lotr5 -- Tactless Darius

To fix Persepolis' mobilization bug, you can join a worker to the city, which forces the game to recalculate the production. I'm not aware of any way to force a recalculation other than changing the size of the city's population; if we don't do that, you have to count shields manually to fix things. Actually, putting on a governor for Manage Citizen Moods and then taking it off might work; you could try that. I'm grabbing the save to take a peek now.

We won't be in the vote if France gets the UN, unless we control 25% of world population or land area, neither of which is the case. Can we pump the populations enough with workers to reach that? I don't know. But it's very unlikely that we could win a three-way election, but it's also true that France may well win the election if it's only two-way.

So I really don't know what to do. :)
 
OK. Yes, Persepolis can suffer from the bug. 46 shields/turn is correct, with it currently producing a galleon which does not get the mobilization boost. But if it's changed to an infantry or something, the shield production doesn't go up even though the terrain inset shows that it should.

Any city that's currently not producing a military unit - which would be Persepolis, Pasargadae, and Arbela on their galleons - will suffer from the bug if they're changed to military unit production.

I tried changing Persepolis to an infantry, and I couldn't get the city to recalculate the shield production by playing with the governor settings. I could get it to do so by drafting a unit in the city, which changes the size of the city's population and forces a complete recalculation.

If you don't want to worry about it, just have the cities on galleons keep building galleons during your turn (and it's correct that none of them can make 60 shields on a non-military unit). I'll deal with it on mine; I know how to reset the cities manually by counting shields.

==========

As for a plan to what to actually do, well, let's analyze the UN vote. With six civs in the game, four votes are required for victory. Russia can't win, since they won't get the votes of India (at war), us (abstain) or France (election opponent). France could conceivably get all four votes that aren't ours or Russia's; we have no way of telling. Judging by the F4 pictures, India and France are smiling at us but nobody else is; we won't win especially if we have to declare war on France to capture the wonder.

So the only possible diplomatic win is France, and that's if she gets all the votes of India, Arabia, and Korea. I think my opinion is this: we can't possibly stop both a French election and a Russian launch; a French election is a questionable possibility while a Russian launch is a certainty, so let's bend our efforts towards the latter. Do take that with the grain of salt that I've been very wrong very recently, though. :o

Oh, and if we've gone ahead to establish some embassies, let's do them all and see if somebody might offer us an MPP.
 
It's based on only pure gut feeling but I have always had this huge hunch that you could actually win a UN vote !
Maybe because you have had much less interaction than other civs, thus less chance to piss them off. Also because you have never bartered any deals (AIs really like that...) and almsot always accepted without condition whatever was offered, maybe France was at war in early ages vs either Arabia or Korea....etc...

Of course this would be the most amazing victory ever if you actually pull a diplomatic win out of this game, without ever contacting any civs during the whole game !
Probably I am fascinated by this possibility and thus find only the arguments to push towards that goal :)
 
I agree w/ T-hawk's analysis that the Russian launch is a certainty. I don't see how we can win against 14 MI or whatever with infantry attacking and I'm sure they have Radar Towers too maybe even civil defence! - that is pure :wallbash:
Even with a nuke and some Tanks that would be a hard nut to crack.

I don't know how we capture the wonder without declaring war on France, but if you have a plan T-hawk I'm willing to listen! ;)

It looks like it has come down to our only chance being that we capture the UN and pray. Since we haven't been at war we could win, I put our chances around 10%. Most likely even if there were lots of wars in the past there will be no winner of the vote and if there weren't lots of past wars France will win. But I don't have any other tricks up my sleeve so that's what I would try. Anyone else?

If we did happen to win it would be the most ironic victory ever. The possibility was the butt of my jokes throughout the game - doesn't seem so funny anymore.

Edit: I just reread T-hawk's post, are you saying we should try to attack Moscow?
 
I don't know how we capture the wonder without declaring war on France,

Propaganda :D

(No, that is not a serious suggestion :crazyeye: 10k or more a shot at something like a 5% chance of success?)

I have no idea what to do, which is why my post was so inconclusive and incoherent. :rolleyes: We cannot get France and Russia's votes, meaning we need ALL of India, Arabia, and Korea. Any of them that have MPP or ROP with Russia will vote for Cathy instead of us. But I agree it's our only chance; destroying Russian AND French spaceships until we accumulate all the techs ourselves is equally impossible.
 
Hmm....Orleans completes UN in 13 turns (1 turn elapsed from investigation). If they hold the election right away, they might win, but the competition will be Russia and not us (land area trumps population for UN votes, so it won't be a 3-way, unless we somehow got up to 25% of the total land area, which I don't see happening in 14 turns).

The next election will be 10 turns later, which is 23 turns from now. There's basically no way the launch will take that long. Russia's research power is too great and the newest patch has the AI civs beelining space techs, especially the scientific civs. No way it takes more than 20 turns for Russia to launch.

I see the UN option, then, as an unfortunate non-starter. We can't do it. Even if we could, France wouldn't vote for us; Russia wouldn't. Could we sweep Korea, India, and Arabia? Highly unlikely. We can maybe re-open this issue in 18 turns, if by some miracle we're still alive then.

That leaves razing Moscow. 14 vet Mech. Inf? And it's a metropolis? Charis, care to run the numbers? Figure we'll get maybe 8 unit hits with our 40 artillery (they're really made units less likely to be hit in PTW). What are our odds with 50 attacking infantry? (not that we can even really hope to get that many, realistically) Assume they have civil defense and radar tower coverage. I'm guessing it's not a very good chance.

2% chance vs. 0% chance? I guess we try to raze Moscow. I see little or no hope in it, but I think it's the direction to go. And try to organize another force to defend our homeland and/or assault Orleans (fat chance).

That's my take. But we're pretty well sunk either way.

Arathorn
 
1794 - Well, I still really have no idea of what is best to do... So, I'll just continue building up our troops and let T-hawk decide ;). IBT, the French request an audience. She wants an MPP and a ROP (for 2 gpt). Damn! Why did all the hard decisions end up on my turn... :hmm: For lack of a better idea, I accept. Palace expansion.

1796 - Remembering T-hawk's comment about MPPs, I found several more embassies (maybe we can get into a huge world war... :)). The Arabs best defense unit is a rifleman, Mecca is only size 12 and is making 19 spt. Delhi is size 26, making 66 spt, and is defended by several infantry and also has a few bombers. Korea's capital is only size 12 and they are in Anarchy. The city is defended by 4 riflemen. IBT, Joanie no longer wants our Gems for Silks deal. :( Gandhi no longer wants to continue our Spices and 3 gpt for Incense deal :(. Scroll through cities to maintain the peace.

1798 - Not much. Now the Russians have 6 pieces produced and 3 in production. IBT: This doesn't look good. It looks like Joanie is about to declare war on Russia as she just sent a loaded transport off towards the Russian coast... This means that all of our units could be destroyed on round 1 of the war.

1800 - Not much.

1802 - Not much. IBT, the Russians have added SS Fuel cells to their Spaceship. Joanie's transport turns around.

1804 - Whoops, I played 1 turn too many. In any case, not much happened. Our ships are at least 2 turns from a Russian landing, but probably more like 5-6 turns if we are going for the location on the hill next to Moscow.

Also, we now have just enough for our first safe tech steal if you want to try in the next couple of turns T-hawk.

Here's the game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5_1804AD.zip

JMB
 
Hard decisions on YOUR turn? I've gotta do the most quixotic invasion I've ever seen in Civ 3! :crazyeye: We have 36 artillery and 60-odd infantry, going up against at least a dozen mechs in a metropolis behind a civil defense and a radar tower...

I guess we're agreed that trying for a UN win ourselves is a no-go? So we're attacking Russia, specifically Moscow?

And, news from the cultural front: analysis of the culture histogram screenshot shows us at 22,317 with Russia at 92,108 and France at 46,257. Russia is not yet at double France, but it may happen by the time Russia reaches 100k about 18 turns from now, and will probably happen shortly after that anyway.

Now, what's our timing? They started the UN in 1786 AD. At 6 turns per tech, they could be at The Laser already. 1808 AD (my second turn) is the soonest we'll have any sort of force within range to land - 12 full galleons, and there's basically one more galleon each turn after that. Do I land in 1808, or can we afford to wait for the Party Lounge to actually go into production?
 
Well... I still think attacking Moscow is the non-starter. If they had 14 MI there before, they will have more before we can attack since we must land and give them one turn to reinforce. It's a metropolis - if it ever built walls it might have the PTW wall bug in play - there will be multiple radar towers around - and civil defence wouldn't surprize me. If we kill 5-6 MI I will be shocked. But hey, either way we're tilling at windmills so WTH! Maybe Arathorn can lead some of our deceased troops out of the mountain to suplement our live ones.

Even if we raze Moscow by some RNG miracle - what have we gained? We aren't even in the modern age yet, right? Russia will still win by culture, or France by Space Ship. If we were closer to the modern age we could declare war on Russia, get France in w/our MPP, and hope for a leader to build the UN ourselves. Then France would vote for us - but that's just an idle dream.

I pity the fool who tries to attack Moscow with 60 infantry and 40 arti :lol:

Sorry I don't have anything more constructive to say, I'm just looking forward to my first SG loss!
 
I wasn't completely sure what to do about the France thing, but instead of weakening our forces I decided to keep everything together.

>Hard decisions on YOUR turn? I've gotta do the most quixotic invasion I've ever seen in Civ 3! :crazyeye:

;) It looks like I forgot to add a smilie... In any case, good luck on your invasion :crazyeye:. I think we can wait for a turn or two before landing as I don't think Russia has discovered the Laser yet. About the UN, with how quickly Russia is going through the techs and building spaceship parts, I don't think the game will last until the second UN vote (we can't get it for the first vote unfortunately...). If you want though, you can send our additional forces that way as they'll only get picked off by Russia's navy once we start the war.

>Maybe Arathorn can lead some of our deceased troops out of the mountain to suplement our live ones.

:rotfl: :lol:

JMB
 
I've had zero time for playing since I saw this message. I was hoping that some miracle of fate would intervene, and Russia would do something stupid like mobilize for war, so they couldn't built the last SS part..... Or maybe just get it over with.

But I got to play the final ignominious loss of my last SG, and I was kinda hoping to avoid that this time. :(

So, what's the status/story?

Arathorn
 
Status is : you pick it up and win the thing ! :)

...but after your turn at CB1 :lol:
 
I can't play tonight, that's pretty much for sure. If I can get out of bed by then (using my laptop lying down right now, but this machine can't play Civ3), I'll have plenty of other RL stuff to do. Tomorrow night is a possibility; I might be able to play a turn then (swapping with you) should this last past your turn. :)
 
No problemo. I really don't expect to play 10 turns, but I'll give it a shot tonight. You just worry about getting better, T-hawk. Better to take it easy an extra day than have the darn stuff linger for a week or more.

Arathorn
 
and yet so far away.

(0) 1804 - Not much to change. I do very little, actually.

(1) 1806 - Move towards Russia. I investigate stealing techs. Different civs have different costs to steal techs from them? I'd never noticed before because I'm usually stealing from the one civ I knew had a certain tech or from the only civ I could take as an enemy or some other reason to target one civ specifically. But costs vary by several hundred gold. Is it tied to techs known? # of cities? Population? Interesting research question. [Auth: Hey, something useful from this game! Might invalidate or call into question some of T-hawk's assumptions in the steal vs. research debate, too.]

Anyway, Arabia had far and away the cheapest steal deal. Hmmm.... Try Immediate. We're really desperate. It succeeds!!! BUT they have nothing useful to steal! They're more backwards than we are. No wonder techs were taking longer to research. We weren't even researching at last. I take Navigation, in case I get the urge to build pillaging explorers.

(I) France declares war .... on Korea. Dang. Not a war I wanted. I just hope Korea's navy is weak. WK comes asking for an embargo vs. France. Since I know our MPP with France will kick in soon, I decline politely and send him on his way. At the end of the turn, we declare on Korea.

(2) 1808 - Keep moving towards Moscow, trying to not sail in Russian water. Hope Korea doesn't eat us for lunch.

(I) France and India MPP. Good! When we fight Russia, France will join and then India will join, too. Dogpile might actually happen. India declares on Korea.
Umm...then France declares war again....on Russia. Umm...!@&@#$!@#&$*) We are so NOT in a position to land on Russian soil. Moscow completes Manhattan and SS Life Support (8 pieces).

(3) 1810 - Rather than risk 800 troops at sea, I land them randomly on Russia's shores. They're badly scattered and on flatlands, but I felt it the best course of action. I fully expect our 100+ troops to be reduced to about 5 by my next turn, but at least they'll have a chance to fight back. A couple ships run into subs and sink, luckily after dropping off their troops.

Galleons that can't reach Russia's shores this turn try to hide behind French ships, hoping to stay alive long enough to drop off their loads.

Clear rally points in anticipation of defending the home island/sending troops to minor Russian holdings.

Plant spy in Korean capital (next cheapest to steal from, but can't use embassy because we're at war with him). Interestingly, the Korean capital is Madras! Been some serious fighting over there.

World is getting confusing at this point....
lotr5-1810ad.jpg


(I) Russians send cruise missiles (nice animation), actually fire artillery from cities and then MI to attack our infantry stacks. We give about as good as we get, killing a number of MI and only losing a few infantry. Of course, some MI retreat to fight another day, but MUCH better than I'd feared.

(4) 1812 - Bombard, bombard, bombard, hope. Move into better positions. Moscow's civil defense actually is destroyed very early! Woo-hoo! I can also redline a defending infantry on a radar tower and take him out with an attacking infantry. One less tower to worry about.

Time to use our Korean spy. Careful steal. It WORKS! But he's as backward, almost, as Abu!!! No new required techs. I take Communism, just in case we need police stations, by some odd miracle. Curse, curse, curse.

Desperate, I do an immediate steal from France, because I know Joan's in the modern age and finally get something useful -- steel.

(I) Abu joins dogpile on Korea. Russian subs start going to work on our "fleet". One modern armor appears...and kills 3 infantry easily.

(5) 1814 - Bombing Moscow gets it down to size 13. We also kill the MA, after redlining with artillery fire. Pillaging also becomes a bit more prevalent. But our homeland is still safe. Organizing a party to sail west to try to eradicate Russian holdings over there.

(I) More subs. More MA appear but don't do quite as much damage. Then, something interesting happens, the Russians restart UN..maybe in a better city?

(6) 1816 - We're still alive? Really? And Russians are building UN in Kiev, which is a MAJOR shield powerhouse. Miracle victory still possible? If we could just raze Moscow and then get Kiev after the UN was finished.... Pure fantasy, of course, but it kept me going.

Moscow drops to size 10. I lose 3 infantry trying to take the last hp off a MA.

(I) Super-infantry that attacked the MA defeats another MA *and* MI in defense, before succumbing to a second MI. We need more troops like that!!! :lol: Russians add Exterior Casing to their ship. WW strikes and Persepolis riots.

(7) 1818 - Luxes up to 30% and re-MM. Moscow down to a town now...size 6. But no infantry in range to attack. More pillaging. I start trying to organize a force to land near Moscow and hopefully raze the sucker. Still a million-to-one against, but losing all their defensive bonuses will help us a microscopic amount.

(I) More subs sink our ships. More Russian artillery blasting away (good for the AI!). Another mega-infantry appears, doing 6 damage to attacking MA (unfortunately not killing any) before getting tread under. Other infantry die...starting to die in more serious numbers, but they've held up much better than I ever dreamt.

(8) 1820 - Can I get to turn 10? It's not game over yet? :confused: Any chance Russia has mobilized?

Moscow is cheap to investigate now, since its size is way down. 64 gold shows me a city NOT mobilized (bummer, Party Lounge has to be close), with 12 of 15 shields, while lacking courthouse and police station (corruption is definitely NOT killing Cathy). And see 12 MI still defending the city. :eek: Hmm.... Go to plan B. "Sir...there is no plan B." D'oh!

Try another immediate steal from France. What other good option do I have? It succeeds again, miraculously, getting us Combustion, leading me to order a few destroyers built, hoping to give us a prayer against the Russia sub menace. That's 4 techs in 8 turns. Pretty lucky.

Move as many troops as I can muster next to Moscow.

(I) Russians and India sign peace treaty. I don't think it will last long.
Russian subs are starting to find full ships to sink, out in the ocean. I just hope enough numbers of ships en route will allow a few troops to land. Absolutely desperate, of course, but we all knew that going in.
On land, MA dominate, but attacking MI and guerillas die reasonably easily. We're nowhere near 1:1 casualties, but probably better than 1:2, when I was expecting 1:5 or so, considering all the factors in Russia's favor (2 tech levels ahead, tower bonuses, free movement).
War weariness increases. A couple cities riot (not sure why I didn't catch the second one. Oh well).
And, whoops! Orleans completes UN. We abstain, naturally. Voting would be pretty tactful, so we can't have that! Cathy and WK vote for Cathy. Abu, Ghandi, and Joan vote for Joan. No majority, and the game continues, narrowly. We could've given Joan a victory here, but it just wasn't meant to be.

(9) 1822 - Hey, one more intra-turn and I'll actually get to pass this off! Who'da thunk it?

Off the radar tower defending Moscow. Moscow down to size 3. Luxes up to 40% and cities back to normal production.

(I) MAs kill a bunch of our troops, but about 3 turns from now, we can land another 28 or so infantry, giving us a semblance of a prayer against Moscow.

But....

lotr5-1822ad-loss.jpg


Ugh.

Hey, were we intentionally playing an OCC???

lotr5-1990bc-replay.jpg


Check out the wonders order and speed.... I mean, ToE before Bach. Bach cascade getting Universal Sufferage?

lotr5-1545ad-replay.jpg


And how often do you see a size 3 "city" as the world's best?

lotr5-demographics.jpg


Final save http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-1822ad.zip is the auto-save from 1822, as that was the latest save I had. Should be easy to see the final loss. Just do whatever you want, even shift-enter to force end-of-turn.

More comments to hopefully follow later today,
Arathorn
 
And the race between a Space, Cultural, and UN loss is now over! The winner is... Cultural loss. :rolleyes:

I don't think we slowed the Space loss so I think Cultural would have been first anyhow. I am guessing it was *really* close though.

Do you think that we would have won a UN victory if we had gotten a leader back to our homeland somehow and rushed it?

I guess we needed to declare on Russia when we first noticed the Culture problem. Then hold our island and maybe take some Russian ones closeby. Meanwhile hoping that the AI wouldn't just dogpile us and instead do something more like what we saw at the end of the game here - a real world war. Both France and Korea (and Carthage of course) had felt the sharp end of Cathy's diplomacy (ala Shrub) and might have gone our way. But who really knows, we did our best and lost.

Thanks to Arathorn for setting up this variant game. You are the master of nearly unwinnable variants :worshp: . And thanks to everyone for some enjoyable discussions and gameplay. I really enjoyed our Immortal rush early in the game, hadn't done that since I first got the game. I like to see dissagreements between people who have actually thought about what they are saying.
 
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