Lotr5 -- Tactless Darius

[Charis]

To quote another SG post of mine just now...

Hi! I got back on Thurs but arrived to some major, uh, stuff, hitting the fan. Haven't even gotten to glance at the forums til today.

Of course, I'm up in all games I'm in
I'll hit each of these as soon as I can.

Sorry for the delays and the silence,
Charis

Wow, we're in deep. Tough decision to make too. My feeling after RBP2 Korean loss - we're toast.
I won't comment which way to go without looking at the save in depth. My initial leaning (52-48) is to push econ and hope the AI pulls and RBE2 (meander like crazy) not an RBP2 (beeline launch) path. But I'll see when I open up the file...

"Got it"
Charis

 

[Zed-F]

It looks like (according to T-Hawk's analysis) that 100k culture is probably not a problem so long as France can hold onto culture, but that may not mean that 20k culture is not a possibility. Any idea on what the numbers look like for that?

If it were me, I would push as hard economically as you can while building up some assault forces for last-ditch capital/20k city razings. We did exactly this in RBE2 and I think if we had had to raze an enemy capital or two we would have had no problems doing it. Most of Russia's cities seem to be coastal so it might not be too hard to do if necessary. The farther you can catch up before being forced by circumstances to attack, the more prepared you will be and the less at a disadvantage your armed forces will be tech-wise. It does little good to get embroiled in a full-scale war now with Russia when you might need to have forces prepared to make surgical strikes on both Russia and France in order to pull this one out. However, beginning preparations for such an eventuality now is not a bad idea at all.

 

[Gothmog]

I keep hearing about RBE2 in this thread, and though it was a great game it was not a tactless one and supposedly the new patch AI is better at going straight to a launch. I read RBE-2 as it was being played and if I remember correctly the game made extensive use of diplomacy to gain an upper hand in techs and war. That is not an option here. If I am miss-remembering that, sorry.

However, I agree with Zed-F to a large degree. We are not ready for war now, that is obvious with a glance at the save. As I say in posts above we need a few more techs, which T-hawk says will be cheaper to research. I would check the medium steal price vs. how many turns to research at what cost (i.e. vs. turning research off) to decide whether to research or steal in the near future. But we wont have anything to build in the near future except commercial docks (in what, the 15-20 turns needed to research or save for steals?) and military. I tend to prefer the pro-active approach, and if we're going to build military we have to use it because it will be a drag on our economy. If we don't build military, I guess we'll have alot of cities on Wealth. Once we do go to war (if we do), I say again we go full bore and rely on steals.

We haven't heard from any of the other players about JMB's proposal to play this one both ways. I suppose that means there isn't strong interest. If no one addresses it now we can revisit the issue at the end of the game.

 

[Arathorn]

I, too, think it would be instructive to play it out one way and then the other....but only one way is the "official" ending. I think deciding now about whether to replay is not necessary. Definitely keep the save file, though, please, Gothmog. Once the game is over, we can discuss picking up again from this point with a different approach.

I don't think anybody says we're ready for war at this point. The question, as I see it, is, are we trying to be ready for war in 15-20 turns or not? If so, we build artillery, infantry, and more transport ships. If not, we put a bunch of cities on wealth, I guess.

Arathorn

 

[T-hawk]

Zed posted:
It looks like (according to T-Hawk's analysis) that 100k culture is probably not a problem so long as France can hold onto culture

Do note that I can't say that with any certainty, just a best-estimate WAG analysis.


but that may not mean that 20k culture is not a possibility. Any idea on what the numbers look like for that?

I'd call it unlikely for quite some turns. Moscow has the Pyramids, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Sun Tzu, Hoover Dam, and probably a handful of small wonders. That's less of a wonder haul than I got in my Epic 7 game, and that didn't hit cultural victory until 1924 AD. I'd say not until at least 1980 AD for 20k in Moscow, but it is very likely to happen before 2050.


If it were me, I would push as hard economically as you can while building up some assault forces for last-ditch capital/20k city razings. We did exactly this in RBE2 and I think if we had had to raze an enemy capital or two we would have had no problems doing it.

And that was with forty modern armors and several nukes, and even so we were only about 85% sure that we could do it if necessary. Our entire plan there hinged on nuking the city before attacking; we're far away from doing that to Russia now and won't be anywhere close until very close to launch time.

 

[Zed-F]

Yes, it relied on nukes, but if you recall our initial plans called for assembling forces of tanks and infantry plus a tac nuke rather than an ICBM (with the intent to upgrade if/when possible of course), and while we weren't certain we could pull it off it definitely seemed possible in theory. Certainly by the time we had many MAs and multiple ICBMs I would say the odds were up well beyond 85%, but we never had to try it so who knows for sure.

Gothmog, the diplo situation is not the same, it's true; however, mainly the diplo games were to get the AI empires into wartime mode and Communism; Russia's already there, so no worries on that score, and there's nothing you can do about it anyway short of attacking someone. The relevant comparison is, what are you building up military for -- what's your real objective? Is it full-scale-knock-down-drag-out war, or a surgical strike at a time and place of your choosing? The latter seems to me to be far less risky.

I think there's no question that you ought to be prepared to use the military option; there's no point in putting cities on wealth just yet. I just am not convinced that you should be getting into the wartime mindset until you have a clear need to, along with an accompanying objective and plans to acheive it. War is definitely an option, but I'd hold that thought for now while keeping it in the back of my mind, and look at the situation again after the commercial docks are in progress to see what your objective should be. In short, I'd worry more about preparing for an eventual war and less about positioning troops for an attack, as I'm not convinced it's clear yet what the target should be.

But hey, you guys are the ones playing, not me. I'm basing my comments about it not being clear what the target should be on my understanding of the game from what you guys have posted, but it's quite possible that things are more cut-and-dried than they seem from my perspecitve.

 

[Gothmog]

Zed-F, you didn't use diplo for 2-fer tech trades? That is an important difference if we are trying to catch up with a civ that is at least 11 techs ahead. Also if we are trying to win by spaceship.

I think our objective at the moment is neither a surgical strike or a full scale war (depending on how you define that). We want to put the hurt on Russian culture and research ability. We don't have to kill them or even raze any core cities (I've never lost to 20K and am not going to worry about that one ATM). We want to fight at times and places of our choosing, including letting them bash their heads against our stone-wall defenses (don't I wish they were steel). If I were just worried about the launch I would agree - surgical strike, but I am really more worried about a culture loss. For the very reason that when it comes close there is almost nothing one can do about it. ASAP is the time to hurt Russian culture and put it well below the 2xFrance value. If we knew how to force Russia to the bargining table then I would be certain of my position. But even so, one can steal tech in Monarchy as easilly as Republic AFAIK.

I don't want to rely on France, if it were clear cut that France would maintain more than 50% then OK that's off the table, but I don't think that is the case. France has like 10 cities, and they lost some of their ancient ones to Russia . Meanwhile Russia has around 30 and in communism I am guessing they have been able to build libraries everywhere (don't have the game with me ATM). They are certainly building research labs now. Russia may very well attack France soon, they certainly took it to Korea who was up with France in rankings before the war.

Our research position isn't really one where we can both have a big military and hope to catch up with Russia. If we're going that route we need to be a lean mean research machine.

I realize that you are commenting based on our posts and this is not an attack on you. Quite the contrary, thank you for your intelligent contribution to the discussion . I am quite honestly salivating to find out what Charis has done and thinks about the future.

 

[JMB]

Hey guys,

I just thought of another way that we could go for victory... My thoughts were along the lines of building up our economy and military (focusing on military (for a surgical strike at the desired moment...)) and then trying grabbing the UN once someone else (hopefully Russia) builds it. Then, we only have to hold it long enough to hold the elections (of course, it'll likely be very difficult to hold until then...) and cross our fingers. Generally, I don't like leaving things up to chance (ie, the vote under our current restrictions), but, our chances this way are probably higher than going for a spaceship victory or any other options... What do you guys think?

JMB

 

[Arathorn]

I don't think our relations with other nations are good enough to get votes for a diplomatic win. Why would anybody vote for us? It's not like we've gifted them with tech or traded a lot with them. I think France is the only nation with a chance of winning the UN vote.

I did think of a way to find out Russia's corruption level. We don't have an embassy with them yet. Changing that would give us some information.... But I'd rather wait utnil IA finishes and try to get a spy in to investigate a city.

Arathorn

 

[Zed-F]

Yes, embassies smack of talking, and diplomats require... you know... tact.

Gothmog, I don't think so, IIRC we never got a 2-for-one deal after China was wiped out, and that happened while we were still in the middle ages. IIRC most of the Industrial techs were bought straight up, usually off America, and the rest were stolen. This is going from memory, but I could check the thread to be sure.

 

[Skyfish]

Arathorn, who setting up embassies be considered...well, hu...tactless ?

 

[Gothmog]

I brought up the Embassy issue at the beginning of the game and Arathorn decided it would be OK. It seems quite tactless to me to build an embassy with someone and then never contact them , of course we could just wait and use some of our tactless spys as Arathorn suggests.

@Zed-F: No need to look that up unless you want to. Every game is different and the dominance of Russia in this game is our current problem. I don't recall you having to stave off a cultural winner - but I've been wrong before. I may be a little paranoid, my most painfull losses were due to culture when I thought I had the game wrapped up. I often forget to check.

 

[Arathorn]

Charis,

What news from the front?

Arathorn

 

[Charis]

Big choice here... continue self-research, plan on stealing remaining techs,
or go to war with Russia. Let's take a look at the situation.

We're at peace. We have a total of 38 units to our name. Best is a few infantry.
Our artillery supply is 3 units. We're in Republic, and would have to pay for
every additional unit. All are in democracy except Russia in Communism,
Korea in Monarchy. We have no spies in place, though we did just get Espionage,
we need to build the CIA. Most folks seem fairly polite. We have 1157g and +699gpt.

War?
- We would have to go from essentially *nothing*
- Additional unit costs to support what I guess the foes have would be worth enough
cash to steal about a tech per player turn.
- We're technologically behind
- We *can't* pull everyone into an MPP or except to get a dogpile, as we're tactless
- As they're in communism, capturing weak cities *helps* them overall
Self-research?
- We can research SM at 4 turns, and likely the next few, but the more costlier techs
will take a lot longer, *and* there will be no increase in research power over this era
Stealing?
- If we steal everything we are assured of getting caught and some point and likely seeing
at least a mini-dogpile
Overall issues
- How will we? Barring a miracle, conquest and domination are out. Culture is out.
UN? We will never 'build' UN. Russia has SETI already, as well has Hoover and Newton, etc.
- Space? If we're missing Uranium or Aluminum... shudder!
- Looking at histogram, wowza, we're number 3, not doing bad at all! It just sucks that
Russia is really dominant.
- Not to be gloomy, but after seeing Russia this far ahead with Koreans, I predict they
will be launching in no later than three players and we'll be powerless to stop them
no matter what path we take here.
- That being said, the world should hate Russia more than it hates us. I think our only
chance to actually win at this point is to *capture* the UN, likely from Russia, in
whatever tactless fashion we have to do that. (Since we can't declare war it will be
sneak attack)
- To do this we'll need an assault force that can take a top city (likely builder city)
and hold it from a *total* counterattack for one turn for the vote. That's if timed
perfectly. If they tell us to leave and we don't, we'll have to survive in the open
for several turns.
- I don't think we'll need battleships. We'll be transporting a one-time assault force,
during a time of peace, to the shore closest their objective, and don't expect to be able
to reinforce them over the course of the war. To put shields into ships doesn't help us
take or hold that city. It's all troops we'll need, together, reinforcementless in one stack.
- Selling off our buildings gets us only a very minor benefit, for the cost of potentially
losing the UN vote when we get caught and dogpiled, when we can research the upcoming
techs in decent time.
- The cost in gold for a tech now is about 3300g, going sci research vs 4 turns.
Steals cost... can't tell right now. CIA due in 2 turns, hopefully will know then.

Here then is my conclusion, after consideration of the excellent points raised by others
plus these facts:
- We have but the slimmest chance at victory. It will require a military assault to
capture precisely one city. The UN builder city, or, if the space race is worse than
expected, Moscow. Any other warfare is fruitless. There is no 'slowing down' the Russian
juggernaut.
- The only other tech that I think we can expect to see before we have to fight
would be Motorized Transport, and we can self-research to that.
- If the game goes longer, we'll switch into espio mode and shut down research
- Commercial docks are just too far off, it will take quite a while to build up the
assault platoon we need, so we go to mobilization, now. Infantry and artillery, lots.
- I'm going to move in this direction, despite the fact that I expect Russia to
launch before the end of T-Hawk's turn ;P

[0] 1764 - Arbela is going to riot, that's fixed. Nuremburg, with a production of 2 shields,
has 143 into a factory? It's switched to Stock Exchange, with its 60ish gpt income.
Likewise Susa's factory won't complete til after Moscow launches to Artillery.

We mobilize for war. Heidelburg hits an even 80spt, one artillery per turn.
(Before the end of my turn that will be a 333% increase in national artillery ;p)
We go for Sci Method at minimal surplus, 6 turns. Every city is gone over to get
the most out of its shield ability.

[1] 1766 - I put prefernce to 'build same unit', so do any changes automatically. Most
are working optimally so I don't want the computer to mess up those choices.
The troops are sent to Nuremburg for eventual transport towards Russian homeland.
Pasargardea gets an irr->mine to hit 40spt. Antioch is 90spt, cool, infantry farm.

IBT The Arabs request an audience? With us?? Sure. Slimeballs want to offer Music
Theory for Medicine. While I would normally scoff at this, since we can't sell
it anyway, why line the pockets of another civ with Arabian cash? Plus if we
want a UN coup, why not do what *little* we can to make friends. Taken!

[2] 1768 - I use a command I've never used before. "Set Rally Point" on each city
as it produces something to send them to Nuremburg. The CIA completes, and we
really just need one spy for the forseeable future. Russia. Nervously, I
"safely" try to plant one.... we now have an agent in Moscow! Phew!

Want to know their army? 2 marines, 8 inf, 7 tank, 13 artillery, 14 cruise missiles,
5 carriers, 8 tranports, several subs and destroyers, 20 battleships, 35 assorted planes,
2 army, 4 cossack and 20 guerrillas. Oh ya, what about Mech Inf. Gulp... 144.
Want worse news? 1 Modern Armor. Synth Fibers... they'll launch *before* T-Hawk...
Tech theft costs for Russia: 1.7K immediately, 2.5K carefully, 3.6K safely. Ouch.
We'll want to wait before doing any of that, for more expensive techs.

[3] 1770, [4] 1772 - clean pollution and 'Fortify All' in Nuremburg is all I need do.

IBT Korea and Russia come to peace. Russians have added Storage/Supply to their ship.
Let's view the space race. Those are the first two complete, two more in progress.

[5] 1774 - Sci Meth completes, 7 more techs to Tanks, 9 to the Modern Age.
The slowdown is hitting already. 8 turns to Steel at minimal surplus.

[6] 1776 - Russians add Docking Bay.
[7] 1778 - Russians add Stasis Chamber *and* Engine to the ship. 5 done, 2 in progress.
[8] 1780, [9] 1782 - More rallying of units.
[10] 1784 - More rallying. Russia remains at 5 done, 2 in progress. Still in Communism.

We're now at 87 units, up from 38, all military builds. About 5 units/turn. At Nuremburg there
are about 29 infantry and 21 artillery, seven galleons (not enough). Switch some cities
nearby over to Galleon production, unless you're holding off to Transport (3 techs away)
Best landing spot next to Moscow is a hill (Mountain has RT and no doubt MechInf on it).
It will take 10 turns just to get OVER there, so it might be necessary to send over the
forces we do have at the end of the next 10 turns to be close just in case. They are
NOT yet working on the UN (boo!) Modern Armor count is up to 6, Mech Inf 151. Another problem
is that if you send insufficent force, we won't get a second chance due to total Russian
naval and air domination. Jumping the gun won't help. Maybe they'll pick another victim
soon and send a good force away from the mainland?!

Save game 1784AD

Good luck, we'll need it (JMB, then T-Hawk)
Charis

PS On preview I see Arathorn is itching for news, funny only in that I debated posting "Now playing, don't worry" but figured the game itself would come before anyone finished breakfast and got to the forums

 

[Gothmog]

I am thinking that Chartactless realizes the gravity of the moment and wants to make us all proud. He has stepped into one of the largest senior-SG player schisms ever seen at CFC.

Sorry about this post, I really just wanted to use the word schism. It's a great word and one rarely finds a place for it

 

[Arathorn]

Wow! I expected a "Yep, playing...." or a "Oh, right. I really was up in this game, too." and got a full-blown report. "Ask and ye shall receive, indeed!" Now, what shall I see to find?

T-hawk's estimate of Russia's research power is obviously faulty. In the app. 25 turns they've been in the Modern Age, they've researched at least 5 techs (Ecology, Synth Fibers, Rocketry, Space Flight, and Satellites assuming Computers was their free tech). That's 5 turns/tech. We can be generous and say they got one tech from France and they're at 7 turns/tech. That's much faster than T-hawk's 20-24 turns prediction.

More importantly, they apparently don't have Fission yet (no start on UN), so they still need 4 (Fission, Nuclear Power, Superconductor, the Laser). That gives us ~20 turns plus the two turns it seems to take the AI to build the planetary lounge, to get our act together.

In that time, we have zero chance of reaching tanks, and not much of combustion (if it's 3 techs away, zero chance). So my (probably pointless because it's about over) recommendations are:
- Turn off research (maybe one scientist on Atomic Theory).
- Use cash to partially-rush whatever mil/transport units we can most efficiently.
- Set sail for Russia in less than 10 turns, aiming for Moscow first, unless we see a better UN opportunity/prayer.
- Proposed invasion "fleet" of 20+ full galleons, with more infantry than artillery.
- Pray for a miracle.

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

it was worse than any of us expected.

So, what did we learn?

One cannot expect to out research a 500 lb guerilla on Diety without any diplomatic options. One must at least be able to get MA's and negotiate the end of wars.

I don't know what we could have done differently. To have gone on the offensive earlier would have been suicide. I haven't reviewed the game but I don't remember any point where we were strong enough to fight anyone (excepting Germany and even that was a stretch) - factoring in our tactless nature of course.

There is no need to replay this one from our well documented schism (sorry, can't stop myself from using that word - schism, schism, schism).

 

[T-hawk]

Wow. OK, I can admit being wrong. But I've never seen a civ in communism be ANYWHERE near that powerful a researcher. I guess they built their research labs quickly, on top of Commercial Docks, which is uncommon for a civ at war to do. So I guess that happened because the AI knew it had enough military and built the buildings instead.

As for attacking - what's the timing on it? After they build the UN for a desperation capture attempt as Charis said? OK, my last estimate on Russia was far off, but even they have to take at least 6 turns (counting Deity discount) to build the UN and at least 8 turns (likely about 12) after starting the UN to reach the tech for the Party Lounge. We can set sail 3-4 turns after the UN is started, and almost certainly arrive between its completion and the launch.

 

[Arathorn]

We again face two options -- try to snag the UN or raze Moscow. Both are the height of desperation.

UN attempt:
Pros:
Could lead to an actual win
City will probably not be as well-defended as Moscow

Cons:
Might not be completed (enough) before launch, depending on which city builds it
Hard to accumulate votes while tactless
Have to hold the city after capture long enough for a vote
Might be built in extremely internal city that will be hard to capture

Moscow raze:
Pros:
Known location
Hurts more than just one random city because of wonders present

Cons:
We'd still be ~15 techs behind
Russia's production probably means another SS completed relatively soon in the new capital

I'm still not convinced which is the better course. I am pretty certain, however, that trying for both would only ensure that we failed at both (unless the UN is built in Moscow, at which point raze vs. capture becomes a HUGE question).

As far as attack timing goes, I think about 15-18 turns from now, under either scenario, is about right. That will give us time to accumulate a slightly larger force (still only marginally close to anywhere near big enough for an assault) and locate the exact point of attack, while still being soon enough (hopefully) to prevent a launch loss. The UN votes every 10 turns (I think), so aiming to capture it about 9 turns after completion would be my recommendation (if possible and if we go that route). That means launching the ships in 5-8 turns, depending on location and goal.


As for the AI in communism, at some point (I don't remember when, exactly), they really improved the AI under communism so it doesn't whip itself into oblivion like it used to. They also "fixed" communism so that the FP doubled the OCN (like it somewhat does for other govts). Together, that makes the "AI self-destructs while in Communism" tenet much less true than it used to be.

Add in the fact that this map is mostly water so that the number of cities held by Russia isn't THAT high, even though they are so dominant. The more cities, the worse the corruption (to the point that it's almost worth ICSing a bunch of tundra cities and giving them to a communist nation (which we can't do but might be an interesting tactic)). On land-dense maps, communism is worse than on watery worlds.

As far as "what if"s go....well, I don't see what we could have done differently that would've been wise. We COULD have ignored teching ourselves after the destruction of Germany, built up an invasion fleet and tried for a desperation capture of the GLib with the few immortals that didn't sink in the crossing. But that kind of gamble only looks wise in hindsight.... I think we played well and just got beat (by the variant, by the relative starting positions, by deity discounts, by improved AI, etc.). We probably could've scrounged up to another 10 turns worth of value out of our FP if we'd've sold buildings and run 50% luxuries, but I don't see how that would've helped much. If we'd've gone military sooner and not researched SM/Corporation, we'd maybe have another 40 infantry to play with, but that's not really enough to change how the war will go -- we might get a surgical strike executed but no more. Just tough to do. Anybody else have suggestions?

Arathorn

 

[JMB]

1784 - Switch Persiopolis from artillery to galleon as it is producing 60 spt.

1786 - Not much. IBT, the Russians begin the UN and the Manhatten Project. The Russians add SS Thrusters to their ship. The UN is being constructed in Carthage, a size 10 city!!

1788 - Even though it is not imperative that we send our troops over now, I load as many as possible into our galleons and send them towards Carthage. Otherwise, not much. IBT, Yes!! Russia declares war on the Indians!

1790 - Drop our science rate to 0% and change all our taxmen to scientists, and we are able to get Refining next turn with a surplus of 605 gold (vs 497 if we went with 10% science). IBT, the French begin the UN (Orleans) and Manhatten Project.

1792 - There are now two cities competing for the UN, so I decide to build an embassy with France (122 gold; this is safer than planting a spy and I don't want to hinder our relations with Joanie) so we can determine who will build the UN. Wow, Paris has 20 infantry, 4 guerilla, 2 bombers, 1 fighter, and 1 artillery! Hopefully Carthage won't be that well defended. Next, we investigate Orleans (306 gold; size 21) and the UN will complete in 14 turns (44 spt) and is defended by 8 infantry, 1 cavalry, 1 MI, 1 pikeman, 2 guerillas, 1 fighter, and 1 bomber. Next, I use our spy to investigate Carthage (130 gold), Carthage will complete the UN in 198 turns (3 spt; defended by 3 vet Mech Inf and 1 fighter). Hmm... What are we going to do now??? Moscow and Tours are producing the Manhatten Project. I decide to investigate both cities to see if Russia might be able to cascade to the UN. Moscow (272 gold) will complete the Manhatten Project in 9 turns (45 spt) and has 13 vet Mech Inf, 2 artillery, 1 curise missile and 1 jet fighter for defense. Big !! I hope that we don't have to try to raze Russia... Tours on the other hand (269 gold), will complete the Manhatten Project in 20 turns (24 spt) and is defended by 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 3 guerilla, a carrier, a bomber and a fighter. Well, since Russia has no chance to complete the UN, I send our ships towards Orleans.

WRT research: What to do, what to do... Checking the price to steal a tech safely (3550 gold from Russia), I notice that it is actually better for us to save our funds and stealing techs! (it will take us 8 turns to research steel at +4 gpt; 11 turns for AT at +4 gpt) Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that we'll get the tech. In any case, I decide to begin saving for tech steals. I put a single scientist on Atomic Theory (even though this game won't last that long...)

1794 - Hmm... I think somehow Perseopolis got MM'd during mobilization and we (unintentionally) took advantage of the Mobilization bug (when I started my turn, Persiopolis was making 60 spt, now it can only get 46). I hope that there aren't that many other cities that took advantage of this, as I don't really know how to fix the problem (and don't really want to count shields...). I'll save the game here in case we need to replay the turns hereafter.

Actually, I decide to rest here for awhile to get everyone else's opinion on what to do... Right now, we are third in terms of population. I think this means that we won't be in the vote should France get the UN. We could set Arbela to a worker factory again and use them to pump up the size of our cities so that we will be in the vote should Joanie decide to call for one (I don't think France has been in too many wars, so it is possible that she might call for a UN vote...).

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5_1794AD.zip

Once I get a bit more input as to what everyone thinks we should do, I'll play the next 5 turns.

JMB