Lotr5 -- Tactless Darius
- Thread starter Arathorn
- Start date
Instead of a turn-by-turn, I'm going to do a situation-by-situation report.
Military:
We no longer have any units besides rifles. Every city has at least one rifle and all spears/muskets were disbanded to save on upkeep and because upgrading was way too expensive. Any excess units are being sent to Nuremburg and fortified for the pending invasion of Russia. I also built a few more galleys and moved them all over by Nuremburg. Russia is threat #1, #2, and #3.
Diplomatic:
I caved in to Cathy, as much as I wanted to fight her, because I know her navy will kill ours in a heartbeat, and I want to land a significant force as our declaration of war. So, Cathy got Gems in 1715. We bought ivory from Korea in 1720 for spices and 21 gpt. Turned out that lux didn't help much (just a few entertainers) but it became important in 1725 when we lost our furs from France.
Techs:
Got Electricity in 1730 and started on Replaceable Parts. After RP, do we want Espionage or Steel/Refining? Espionage and stealing techs might be the way to go for a while. If we go that route, after we research Espionage, we can sell all our libraries and universities to increase our income and go about stealing techs. Team thoughts?
Domestic:
Turned off the worker factory in 1725, as we had what I thought was too many and I wanted to turn Arbela into a size 12 fishing village. After growing all our cities, turns out I probably didn't leave quite enough workers for pollution patrol, so we'll want to pull a worker or two off the top of cities that are maxed in useful pop but still growing (Susa, Pasagardae, Persepolis) once in a while. Useful things to irrigate have all been irrigated.
A few cities are out of useful things to build other than military, so we're starting to get at least a hint of a military presence. I started Battlefield Medicine in Persepolis, as we will need the ability to heal in Russia, once we get there.
I actually put a few cities on wealth, because I didn't want to build too many rifles/cannons and to keep us over 1000 gold in the bank. Once RP comes in, we'll need to change those over to units ASAP.
Foreign affairs:
Russia started SETI in 1705, so they're in the modern age with mech infantry at least. Finished it in 1735, so it took 6 turns. SETI is a 1000-shield wonder, which is 600 deity shields, so Kiev is over 100 spt. It's one of their THREE Iron Works candidates, so my guess is that's where their Iron Works is -- right next to Moscow. Convenient, huh? Russia had far and away the best starting position in this game.
I think Russia and Korea are at war, judging by the size of some of Wang Kon's cities. I think/hope WK can at least hold his ground, though.
We're second in land area and third in pop at this point. I don't know what that would mean as far as UN vote. Russia will build it, but I don't know if they'll hold elections or not. If they do, I'm not sure if France or we will be the competition. I don't think Russia can win that way, so I don't think elections will be held.
Long-term plans:
Pray for rubber. Build up an invasion force to land on Russia's mainland. Since Russia is so distributed (but in Communism, so it doesn't matter where their FP is), they probably won't have more than 70 troops to throw at us. So a landing force of 25 infantry, 20 artillery, a worker, and a settler -- either on a mountain or on a hill to found a city ASAP -- will probably be about enough. I think this force will need to be ready to go in 15 turns if we want to have a shot. At that point, we'll need to pick a place to make our stand.
It might be beneficial to go the Espionage route for another reason, too. Cash in hand can be used for multiple purposes, like upgrading rifles to speed our invasion force, or to rush buildings or .... *shrug*
Save file at
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-1750ad.zip
Roster:
Gothmog -- up NOW
Charis -- on deck (I hope -- are you there?)
JMB -- probably gonna be warring
Arathorn
Military:
We no longer have any units besides rifles. Every city has at least one rifle and all spears/muskets were disbanded to save on upkeep and because upgrading was way too expensive. Any excess units are being sent to Nuremburg and fortified for the pending invasion of Russia. I also built a few more galleys and moved them all over by Nuremburg. Russia is threat #1, #2, and #3.
Diplomatic:
I caved in to Cathy, as much as I wanted to fight her, because I know her navy will kill ours in a heartbeat, and I want to land a significant force as our declaration of war. So, Cathy got Gems in 1715. We bought ivory from Korea in 1720 for spices and 21 gpt. Turned out that lux didn't help much (just a few entertainers) but it became important in 1725 when we lost our furs from France.
Techs:
Got Electricity in 1730 and started on Replaceable Parts. After RP, do we want Espionage or Steel/Refining? Espionage and stealing techs might be the way to go for a while. If we go that route, after we research Espionage, we can sell all our libraries and universities to increase our income and go about stealing techs. Team thoughts?
Domestic:
Turned off the worker factory in 1725, as we had what I thought was too many and I wanted to turn Arbela into a size 12 fishing village. After growing all our cities, turns out I probably didn't leave quite enough workers for pollution patrol, so we'll want to pull a worker or two off the top of cities that are maxed in useful pop but still growing (Susa, Pasagardae, Persepolis) once in a while. Useful things to irrigate have all been irrigated.
A few cities are out of useful things to build other than military, so we're starting to get at least a hint of a military presence. I started Battlefield Medicine in Persepolis, as we will need the ability to heal in Russia, once we get there.
I actually put a few cities on wealth, because I didn't want to build too many rifles/cannons and to keep us over 1000 gold in the bank. Once RP comes in, we'll need to change those over to units ASAP.
Foreign affairs:
Russia started SETI in 1705, so they're in the modern age with mech infantry at least. Finished it in 1735, so it took 6 turns. SETI is a 1000-shield wonder, which is 600 deity shields, so Kiev is over 100 spt. It's one of their THREE Iron Works candidates, so my guess is that's where their Iron Works is -- right next to Moscow. Convenient, huh? Russia had far and away the best starting position in this game.
I think Russia and Korea are at war, judging by the size of some of Wang Kon's cities. I think/hope WK can at least hold his ground, though.
We're second in land area and third in pop at this point. I don't know what that would mean as far as UN vote. Russia will build it, but I don't know if they'll hold elections or not. If they do, I'm not sure if France or we will be the competition. I don't think Russia can win that way, so I don't think elections will be held.
Long-term plans:
Pray for rubber. Build up an invasion force to land on Russia's mainland. Since Russia is so distributed (but in Communism, so it doesn't matter where their FP is), they probably won't have more than 70 troops to throw at us. So a landing force of 25 infantry, 20 artillery, a worker, and a settler -- either on a mountain or on a hill to found a city ASAP -- will probably be about enough. I think this force will need to be ready to go in 15 turns if we want to have a shot. At that point, we'll need to pick a place to make our stand.
It might be beneficial to go the Espionage route for another reason, too. Cash in hand can be used for multiple purposes, like upgrading rifles to speed our invasion force, or to rush buildings or .... *shrug*
Save file at
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-1750ad.zip
Roster:
Gothmog -- up NOW
Charis -- on deck (I hope -- are you there?)
JMB -- probably gonna be warring
Arathorn
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Well, we are not going to win this game through research. That's for sure, we've gone about as far as we can on that route because Russia has shown they will beat us to any number of victory conditions. Extreme times call for extreme measures, I like the idea of selling off our libraries and universities and using the proceeds to finance our last gasp war vs. Russia. We wont be able to steal from Russia (or even plant a spy) right away, because we can't risk premature war. So, we risk war with another state - that's life. Not Korea either, because we don't want to distract them and they may see us as alies once we go to war with Russia. Russia and Korea were at war during my last turn too. Russia with MI wont be fun to assault, but maybe we can keep her buisy enough to allow us to get to tanks before she wins this one. I am assuming we need to take the war to Russia's home continent? but I wont need to make that decision. My time will be alotted to more war preparation. To get more than an initial landing force we will either need to get to flight or build a decent navy.
'I got it'
'I got it'
Don't sell libraries/universities until after we have RP and Espionage in. At that point, we can maybe try a 40-turn run across the bottom while trying to steal our way across the top? I dunno. Maybe a 40-turn run at Communism, as we'll want police stations, too, probably.
As for who to steal from...well, that depends on the rubber situation, IMO. If some opponent doesn't have rubber, steal from them, because they won't be a big threat. Ideally, we can find a nation or two not commies, too, which will make our spies jobs easier.
I think that's the best way to go at this point....
Arathorn
As for who to steal from...well, that depends on the rubber situation, IMO. If some opponent doesn't have rubber, steal from them, because they won't be a big threat. Ideally, we can find a nation or two not commies, too, which will make our spies jobs easier.
I think that's the best way to go at this point....
Arathorn
T-hawk
Transcend
The only techs in the Industrial Age worth stealing are these: Atomic Theory, Electronics, Radio, and Flight. Those four techs are significantly more expensive than the others, all costing at least 180 in the editor while nothing else costs more than 140 (which is Rep Parts and Motorized Transport.) The safe steal costs are just as much as the research costs for the cheaper techs, and factor in the possibility of failure and it's not a good deal. Trust me; I just analyzed all this in a recent game.
Risking an Epics spoiler, I just got a lot of experience with industrial warfare in a recent game. To crack Moscow city will require this: forty artillery, twenty each infantry and cavalry or tanks, eight transports to move them all, and ten destroyers to defend the transports. You tell me where we're going to build all that.
And that's if Russia doesn't get to Computers and mechs; attacking a mech-defended Moscow will take on the order of 70 artillery.
I think we might be better off running the population gambit to get into the UN election, and take our chances from there. If France is eligible, she will almost surely win; if it's Russia and us, we might not win but at least we're reasonably sure to not lose right then. And if Russia stays in Communism - it's their favored government and they show no signs of stopping warring - we CAN match their research all the way to launching.
Of course, there is that danger of Russian culture. How about we all just pray that Russia goes into War-Time Mobilization. :worshp:
Risking an Epics spoiler, I just got a lot of experience with industrial warfare in a recent game. To crack Moscow city will require this: forty artillery, twenty each infantry and cavalry or tanks, eight transports to move them all, and ten destroyers to defend the transports. You tell me where we're going to build all that.
And that's if Russia doesn't get to Computers and mechs; attacking a mech-defended Moscow will take on the order of 70 artillery.I think we might be better off running the population gambit to get into the UN election, and take our chances from there. If France is eligible, she will almost surely win; if it's Russia and us, we might not win but at least we're reasonably sure to not lose right then. And if Russia stays in Communism - it's their favored government and they show no signs of stopping warring - we CAN match their research all the way to launching.
Of course, there is that danger of Russian culture. How about we all just pray that Russia goes into War-Time Mobilization. :worshp:
I'm not interested, at this point, in taking Moscow. I just want to land, destroy a bunch of forces, and maybe pillage a huge chunk of land. As for the destroyers, we're going to sneak attack, so we don't need to defend the naval transports. Their mission is to deliver and probably die.
And Moscow will already have mech. infantry. They've already built SETI. They have to have computers. We can maybe match them beaker-for-beaker, but they have a 10 tech lead on us, so matching them does absolutely NO good. We have to slow them signficantly.
Russian culture will probably get them the win in <100 turns if we do nothing. We have no chance of launching in that time, so we have to do something. Ergo, a landing force to distract, annoy, bombard buildings, pillage, and wreak havoc, even though we probably won't be able to take any cities.
What if we do non-safe steals? What are the odds of success? I've had very good luck with one immediate steal/game. And we can maybe risk a few more. Plus, we have three cash-boosting buildings (market, bank, stock exchange) at this point and only two science-boosters (library, university). There's not a 1:1 correlation between our beaker power and our cash power. I still think Espionage is the way to go.
As for where we will build things, we have much of the transport power already created, Antioch can do an artillery/turn (that's 15) and we have another 7 or so cities that can do an infantry/artillery every other turn (that's another 52 units). That's enough to harry the Russians, which is all we can do unless we get really lucky and they only have one or two sources of rubber.
I just don't agree with your analysis, T-hawk. We can get more cash than beakers, we can hurt the size of the Russia cities and cut into their commerce by pillaging, and we have the production to do so. I see failing to make the landing as failing to try, and guaranteeing a loss. We won't win diplomatically -- elections will almost assuredly not be held as Russia's been at war with every nation at least once. We're racing the clock both for launching and for cultural loss. We've done as much as we can to speed ourselves up. Now it's time to bust some heads and slow Russia down!
Arathorn
And Moscow will already have mech. infantry. They've already built SETI. They have to have computers. We can maybe match them beaker-for-beaker, but they have a 10 tech lead on us, so matching them does absolutely NO good. We have to slow them signficantly.
Russian culture will probably get them the win in <100 turns if we do nothing. We have no chance of launching in that time, so we have to do something. Ergo, a landing force to distract, annoy, bombard buildings, pillage, and wreak havoc, even though we probably won't be able to take any cities.
What if we do non-safe steals? What are the odds of success? I've had very good luck with one immediate steal/game. And we can maybe risk a few more. Plus, we have three cash-boosting buildings (market, bank, stock exchange) at this point and only two science-boosters (library, university). There's not a 1:1 correlation between our beaker power and our cash power. I still think Espionage is the way to go.
As for where we will build things, we have much of the transport power already created, Antioch can do an artillery/turn (that's 15) and we have another 7 or so cities that can do an infantry/artillery every other turn (that's another 52 units). That's enough to harry the Russians, which is all we can do unless we get really lucky and they only have one or two sources of rubber.
I just don't agree with your analysis, T-hawk. We can get more cash than beakers, we can hurt the size of the Russia cities and cut into their commerce by pillaging, and we have the production to do so. I see failing to make the landing as failing to try, and guaranteeing a loss. We won't win diplomatically -- elections will almost assuredly not be held as Russia's been at war with every nation at least once. We're racing the clock both for launching and for cultural loss. We've done as much as we can to speed ourselves up. Now it's time to bust some heads and slow Russia down!
Arathorn
T-hawk
Transcend
Good point that Russia won't hold the elections; I'd forgotten that could happen. So the only diplomatic danger is if France manages to build it, and we can't do anything about that via either military or population.
But another problem - what's going to defend our artillery once they land? Russia's gotta have tanks; we've seen them with both rubber-based and oil-based units. I might remind you that I saw a single stack of SIXTY Russian units on that continent, when Russia was attacking Theveste. Russia will have and produce plenty of tanks to attack the stack. We can land on a mountain, but the AI will still attack our infantry with their tanks (and even MIs), and our stack won't last long. Ten turns at most, during which time we might bombard the buildings and pop of three cities.
I don't see how we can possibly produce and ship infantry over there faster than Russia can build tanks to attack. Maybe we could do it with Flight and airlifts, but that gives Russia time to get to modern armors and blow us off that rock, not to mention nukes and blow up our precious core.
LK44 proved that no matter how many artillery you have, you can't make an invasion that you don't have the defense to defend.
I have no idea what the percentages on cheaper tech steals are, but the general consensus I've seen is that it isn't worth it considering the possibility of failure and the fact that in PTW you have to wait several turns before you can plant a spy again. Especially if we're a Republic stealing against Communists, we better stick to the safe ones.
As for espionage - trust me, I've done the analysis. Stealing any Industrial tech besides the big four I listed does not pan out mathematically. Even counting the stock exchange-vs-university discrepancy, there's a BIG gap in cost between those big four techs and anything else Industrial. Stealing any Modern tech is, of course, worthwhile.
We have our Commercial Docks still to come for economy. Russia won't have been building any infrastructure-ish buildings at all during all their wars. I believe we can still match them economically until launch - modern techs cost a LOT to research but no more for us to steal and Russia's gotta be over 50% corruption in ALL of their Communist cities. I would wager that Russia pulled Computers for the free scientific tech but hasn't gotten any other modern tech yet and won't for another dozen or more turns.
At any rate, I think we have a better chance of continuing to push economically than trying for a doomed military invasion. If the entire rest of the world couldn't slow Russia, how can little old us? The problem is, I admit, a Russian culture win, but it takes a LOT of damage to slow such a cultural win. See my attempts at slowing Egypt's culture back in Epic Three; I had to raze over a dozen cities to gain only ten turns on the cultural victory.
But another problem - what's going to defend our artillery once they land? Russia's gotta have tanks; we've seen them with both rubber-based and oil-based units. I might remind you that I saw a single stack of SIXTY Russian units on that continent, when Russia was attacking Theveste. Russia will have and produce plenty of tanks to attack the stack. We can land on a mountain, but the AI will still attack our infantry with their tanks (and even MIs), and our stack won't last long. Ten turns at most, during which time we might bombard the buildings and pop of three cities.
I don't see how we can possibly produce and ship infantry over there faster than Russia can build tanks to attack. Maybe we could do it with Flight and airlifts, but that gives Russia time to get to modern armors and blow us off that rock, not to mention nukes and blow up our precious core.
LK44 proved that no matter how many artillery you have, you can't make an invasion that you don't have the defense to defend.
I have no idea what the percentages on cheaper tech steals are, but the general consensus I've seen is that it isn't worth it considering the possibility of failure and the fact that in PTW you have to wait several turns before you can plant a spy again. Especially if we're a Republic stealing against Communists, we better stick to the safe ones.
As for espionage - trust me, I've done the analysis. Stealing any Industrial tech besides the big four I listed does not pan out mathematically. Even counting the stock exchange-vs-university discrepancy, there's a BIG gap in cost between those big four techs and anything else Industrial. Stealing any Modern tech is, of course, worthwhile.
We have our Commercial Docks still to come for economy. Russia won't have been building any infrastructure-ish buildings at all during all their wars. I believe we can still match them economically until launch - modern techs cost a LOT to research but no more for us to steal and Russia's gotta be over 50% corruption in ALL of their Communist cities. I would wager that Russia pulled Computers for the free scientific tech but hasn't gotten any other modern tech yet and won't for another dozen or more turns.
At any rate, I think we have a better chance of continuing to push economically than trying for a doomed military invasion. If the entire rest of the world couldn't slow Russia, how can little old us? The problem is, I admit, a Russian culture win, but it takes a LOT of damage to slow such a cultural win. See my attempts at slowing Egypt's culture back in Epic Three; I had to raze over a dozen cities to gain only ten turns on the cultural victory.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Cracking Moscow will only be necessary if we need to prevent a spaceship launch. Otherwise we just want to hurt Russia as much as we can (OK we want to do more but realistically). Given that Russia will build the UN there will be no vote unless the AI is smoking some serious 
.
I am assuming that we wont be done with RP and Espionage during my turns so I wont have to make a decision about selling off our libraries/universities.
I was thinking that after we make our landing on their home continent we might try to raze some of their outlying cities (assuming they don't completely surround us with battleships
) like the islands near us. They might not have MI there yet or maybe just 1 or 2 so we could potentially do some damage and it would help slow their culture.
Finally, if we're going to lose I want Cathy to feel some of my pain first!
Edit: Didn't send this post in right away due to work getting in the way! So I hadn't seen T-hawks 2nd post. Damn priorities.
. I am assuming that we wont be done with RP and Espionage during my turns so I wont have to make a decision about selling off our libraries/universities.
I was thinking that after we make our landing on their home continent we might try to raze some of their outlying cities (assuming they don't completely surround us with battleships
) like the islands near us. They might not have MI there yet or maybe just 1 or 2 so we could potentially do some damage and it would help slow their culture.Finally, if we're going to lose I want Cathy to feel some of my pain first!
Edit: Didn't send this post in right away due to work getting in the way! So I hadn't seen T-hawks 2nd post. Damn priorities.
Dark Savant
Crusader
Some comments from a long-term (9 months!) lurker (also my first post, so please bear with me 
).
* It looks like an assault on the Russian homeland would be very difficult -- especilly since the Russians can bomb the heck out of your helpless landing party.
Why not roll up some of their island colonies instead, if you choose to go to war? They'll be easier to take, and it'll dent Russian culture, which will also make it easier for France to catch up to half Russian culture.
* Research: you still don't have Monarchy, right? Since it may be necessary to revolt to Monarchy in a massive war, you could do a easy 4-turn run on it that would also build up cash for a 100% deficit run on an Industrial tech.
* Attack units: you won't have tanks for a looong time. Might it actually be worthwhile to build cheap immortals to finish off units redlined by artillery?
Keep up the good work!
).* It looks like an assault on the Russian homeland would be very difficult -- especilly since the Russians can bomb the heck out of your helpless landing party.
Why not roll up some of their island colonies instead, if you choose to go to war? They'll be easier to take, and it'll dent Russian culture, which will also make it easier for France to catch up to half Russian culture.* Research: you still don't have Monarchy, right? Since it may be necessary to revolt to Monarchy in a massive war, you could do a easy 4-turn run on it that would also build up cash for a 100% deficit run on an Industrial tech.
* Attack units: you won't have tanks for a looong time. Might it actually be worthwhile to build cheap immortals to finish off units redlined by artillery?
Keep up the good work!
Banzai
Shogun
I looked at your save..
Good luck!
If you win this one I'll buy you all a beer!
Banzai!
Good luck!
If you win this one I'll buy you all a beer!
Banzai!
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Preturn - 
how can we win this one? I look it over... I am glad we (make that T-hawk) noticed the culture issue because I think that's how we would lose first. Then by spaceship - not sure how long, depends on the warfare and governments. Basically we need to slow Russia down, in term of culture this means bombing city improvements or razing cities. Best would be cities that Russia has owned for a long time due to the doubling effect. It may be that our best tactic is to land a force on Russia to distract them, mostly infantry with some Arti too. Then form another roving group with a more typical 50-50 type Arti-Infantry mix that can land on an island, bomb the crap out of the city improvement there, and move on. Only razing the city if it is *easy* and wont mean losing many troops, the improvments are the key. We could even forget the mainland landing for now and just concentrate on navy and islands. Is this feasable? I have no real idea. We will certainly need battleships and transports. On to the game.
Preturn - outch, russia has Radar Towers all over their territories.
(IT) - lost our suply of Ivory? this was from Korea and either they had their ivory disconected or lost their only harbor. Crap, I use scroll ahead to avert disaster.
early - I pop a couple extra workers as we do have a growing pollution problem. RP comes in and we have two rubber, yes! Otherwise, I was going to wine 'game over man, game over', just like the guy in Aliens.
later - India offers us Incense for Spices + 3gpt, this will save us about 100 gpt so I accept -> Polite. I remember to start a prebuild for IA about a turn late. Esp comes in and I set to single scientist towards SM.
I stopped at the end of 1764 AD (7th turn), we need to decide if we are going to sell off our infrastructure now and rely on stealing or keep researching. We will need transports and really battleships too.
My incination is to go full bore towards destroying Russian city improvements, then worry about the space race problem later. Although, if we do a good job Russian research will be slowed as well. I would sell off our stuff as Arathorn suggested, and build up something like I discuss above. Once at war we will want to investigate the Russian Islands to determine what size landing party will be safe and I think we will probably want to mobilize? of course this is risky because we can never ask for peace but it is a substantial production boost which we could use. I felt we should reach some consensus before proceeding.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-1764ad.zip
how can we win this one? I look it over... I am glad we (make that T-hawk) noticed the culture issue because I think that's how we would lose first. Then by spaceship - not sure how long, depends on the warfare and governments. Basically we need to slow Russia down, in term of culture this means bombing city improvements or razing cities. Best would be cities that Russia has owned for a long time due to the doubling effect. It may be that our best tactic is to land a force on Russia to distract them, mostly infantry with some Arti too. Then form another roving group with a more typical 50-50 type Arti-Infantry mix that can land on an island, bomb the crap out of the city improvement there, and move on. Only razing the city if it is *easy* and wont mean losing many troops, the improvments are the key. We could even forget the mainland landing for now and just concentrate on navy and islands. Is this feasable? I have no real idea. We will certainly need battleships and transports. On to the game.Preturn - outch, russia has Radar Towers all over their territories.
(IT) - lost our suply of Ivory? this was from Korea and either they had their ivory disconected or lost their only harbor. Crap, I use scroll ahead to avert disaster.
early - I pop a couple extra workers as we do have a growing pollution problem. RP comes in and we have two rubber, yes! Otherwise, I was going to wine 'game over man, game over', just like the guy in Aliens.
later - India offers us Incense for Spices + 3gpt, this will save us about 100 gpt so I accept -> Polite. I remember to start a prebuild for IA about a turn late. Esp comes in and I set to single scientist towards SM.
I stopped at the end of 1764 AD (7th turn), we need to decide if we are going to sell off our infrastructure now and rely on stealing or keep researching. We will need transports and really battleships too.
My incination is to go full bore towards destroying Russian city improvements, then worry about the space race problem later. Although, if we do a good job Russian research will be slowed as well. I would sell off our stuff as Arathorn suggested, and build up something like I discuss above. Once at war we will want to investigate the Russian Islands to determine what size landing party will be safe and I think we will probably want to mobilize? of course this is risky because we can never ask for peace but it is a substantial production boost which we could use. I felt we should reach some consensus before proceeding.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-1764ad.zip
T-hawk
Transcend
You need me to calculate this?! 12g/2gpt per university, 5g/1gpt per library. If we sell 15 of each we get 255g and save 45g/turn. I wouldn't do it. Less income than Wall Street, for selling 2,100 shields worth of buildings and completely gutting our ability to research things ourselves. At the very least, don't do it until we've researched the techs that are worth researching instead of stealing, which is everything except Atomic Theory/Electronics/Radio/Flight.
I would not waste cash investigating Russian island cities (I suppose by investigate you just mean "look at".) Mobilization - no way; we could EASILY be stuck in it forever, and we must build our commercial docks as soon as we can.
And I still don't actually think attacking Russia is even wise at all. France IS above half Russia's culture, although just barely so. (Can we use Apollo to see the exact numbers?) It doesn't push us towards any kind of victory, just avoids a loss to Russia for a little while. And if we do attack, going for the core island would be suicide with our infantry getting shredded by Russian tanks. (They have ZILLIONS of units on that island.) Our only chance is against island cities, and they won't have a huge amount of culture, especially ancient doubled buildings.
12g/2gpt per university, 5g/1gpt per library. If we sell 15 of each we get 255g and save 45g/turn. I wouldn't do it. Less income than Wall Street, for selling 2,100 shields worth of buildings and completely gutting our ability to research things ourselves. At the very least, don't do it until we've researched the techs that are worth researching instead of stealing, which is everything except Atomic Theory/Electronics/Radio/Flight.I would not waste cash investigating Russian island cities (I suppose by investigate you just mean "look at".) Mobilization - no way; we could EASILY be stuck in it forever, and we must build our commercial docks as soon as we can.
And I still don't actually think attacking Russia is even wise at all. France IS above half Russia's culture, although just barely so. (Can we use Apollo to see the exact numbers?) It doesn't push us towards any kind of victory, just avoids a loss to Russia for a little while. And if we do attack, going for the core island would be suicide with our infantry getting shredded by Russian tanks. (They have ZILLIONS of units on that island.) Our only chance is against island cities, and they won't have a huge amount of culture, especially ancient doubled buildings.
T-hawk
Transcend
My plan would just be to push as hard as we can economically, and hope like heck we can get to a launch before Russia wins by either launch or culture. If we stay in Republic with the Commercial Docks, and steal the expensive techs, I believe we'll catch up to Russian technology before they launch. In communism, with that ton of communally-corrupt cities, they can't be doing much better than 20-25 turns per tech. We can save up and steal techs in 5-6 turns each. And we can't build the military to stop them from launching for a LONG time. Moscow's got to have 10 or more mech infantry defending it by now; we'd seriously be needing about 140 artillery (halve that for each nuke dropped on it) to raze the city.
Now as for culture... OK, I downloaded the save, took a screenshot of the cultural histogram into Paint Shop Pro, and figured as carefully as I could on the widths of the culture bars.
We have 20,036 culture as of 1764 AD; I figure Russia for 77,997 and France for 41,145. Russia needs to outproduce France by double plus 4,000 to get into winning territory. If we figure at least 100 turns before we can think about launching, then we lose by culture if Russia outproduces France by double plus 40 per turn. They may or may not be doing that - I cannot tell at all. Actually, France is in the modern age according to F4 in fact. If she gets Computers and a decent number of research labs built, I believe we will not lose by culture.
Both space and culture are close cases that might happen or might not. Attacking Russia now might delay - not stop - one or even both, but it doesn't do anything at all to get us to a win ourselves. (I don't subscribe to goals of "let's take them down with us." Against prideful human opponents, it may be a consideration, but not a bunch of AI scripts. Russia won't feel humiliated or congratulate us for effort if they don't win.)
And what if Russia goes nuclear? It's over for us. We can't rebuild from more than one or two nukes, and Russia will have many.
Remember RBE2? Stay in democracy, push the economy - Commercial Docks are quite significant - and you just might top the AIs in the end. I see hope in that direction; I see no hope in attacks that don't push us towards victory.
Nevertheless, I won't stand in the way of a team plan. If it's passed to me with 80 artillery ready to land, I'll land them - but then watch them get blown away.
Now as for culture... OK, I downloaded the save, took a screenshot of the cultural histogram into Paint Shop Pro, and figured as carefully as I could on the widths of the culture bars.
We have 20,036 culture as of 1764 AD; I figure Russia for 77,997 and France for 41,145. Russia needs to outproduce France by double plus 4,000 to get into winning territory. If we figure at least 100 turns before we can think about launching, then we lose by culture if Russia outproduces France by double plus 40 per turn. They may or may not be doing that - I cannot tell at all. Actually, France is in the modern age according to F4 in fact. If she gets Computers and a decent number of research labs built, I believe we will not lose by culture.
Both space and culture are close cases that might happen or might not. Attacking Russia now might delay - not stop - one or even both, but it doesn't do anything at all to get us to a win ourselves. (I don't subscribe to goals of "let's take them down with us." Against prideful human opponents, it may be a consideration, but not a bunch of AI scripts. Russia won't feel humiliated or congratulate us for effort if they don't win.)
And what if Russia goes nuclear? It's over for us. We can't rebuild from more than one or two nukes, and Russia will have many.
Remember RBE2? Stay in democracy, push the economy - Commercial Docks are quite significant - and you just might top the AIs in the end. I see hope in that direction; I see no hope in attacks that don't push us towards victory.
Nevertheless, I won't stand in the way of a team plan. If it's passed to me with 80 artillery ready to land, I'll land them - but then watch them get blown away.
There are two ways to catch up in a race. One is to run faster. The other is to slow down the other runners. At this point, I don't us able to run any faster than we already are. Our cities are essentially maxed, our commerce is maxed, our buildings are maxed. There's not much left for them to do. I don't see us able to run any faster.
Now, slowing down an enemy. THAT we can do. 50 infantry take a lot of killing, believe me. I've landed beachheads against deity foes before, on major islands, and seen literally 200 units next to them the following turn. And won. The difference between infantry/artillery stacks defending vs. tanks/mech. infantry and muskets/catapults defending against cavalry are HUGE. Immense.
As for Russia's supposed dive into communism-impaired corruption, I don't see it. Kiev was cranking over 100 spt with corruption, which means it's either less than 20% corrupt or seriously insanely productive. I've had IW cities with about max shields and never gotten over about 140 spt. Corruption is most definitely NOT killing Russia. They will research reasonably quickly and I wouldn't be surprised to see a launch before culture could win.
I vote strongly for building up a force (40 infantry and 20 artillery or whatever) strong enough to make a major impact, and taking it to Russia. In a non-variant world, we'd sign everybody to MPP first, to try to force a dogpile, but we'll just have to do it solo this time, IMO.
As for mobilization, I'm actually in favor of it. At some point, Russia will offer us peace and we can take it if we need it. But the only building we're gonna want for a long time is commercial docks, and those are a ways away. I'd go for it, myself.
I see ZERO hope in trying to catch up from 100 turns of tech trailing without slowing down the leader(s). I do see hope in slowing down the leaders significantly at not much cost to ourselves.
What's the rest of the team say?
Arathorn
Now, slowing down an enemy. THAT we can do. 50 infantry take a lot of killing, believe me. I've landed beachheads against deity foes before, on major islands, and seen literally 200 units next to them the following turn. And won. The difference between infantry/artillery stacks defending vs. tanks/mech. infantry and muskets/catapults defending against cavalry are HUGE. Immense.
As for Russia's supposed dive into communism-impaired corruption, I don't see it. Kiev was cranking over 100 spt with corruption, which means it's either less than 20% corrupt or seriously insanely productive. I've had IW cities with about max shields and never gotten over about 140 spt. Corruption is most definitely NOT killing Russia. They will research reasonably quickly and I wouldn't be surprised to see a launch before culture could win.
I vote strongly for building up a force (40 infantry and 20 artillery or whatever) strong enough to make a major impact, and taking it to Russia. In a non-variant world, we'd sign everybody to MPP first, to try to force a dogpile, but we'll just have to do it solo this time, IMO.
As for mobilization, I'm actually in favor of it. At some point, Russia will offer us peace and we can take it if we need it. But the only building we're gonna want for a long time is commercial docks, and those are a ways away. I'd go for it, myself.
I see ZERO hope in trying to catch up from 100 turns of tech trailing without slowing down the leader(s). I do see hope in slowing down the leaders significantly at not much cost to ourselves.
What's the rest of the team say?
Arathorn
I'm sorry, I am not going to be much help at this stage... My gut feeling is to try to really damage several of Russia's islands (I think their mainland is probably too difficult to assault). Do we have Battlefield Medicine yet?
In truth, I think it might be really enjoyable to try out both ideas. We could try one way to completion and then try the second way to completion (not to try to prove one person wrong and the other right, but to learn how things might unfold using each idea...) I'd really be in favour of trying this out (I don't think our knowledge of what happens in the game we complete first will really alter what happens in the second game). What do you guys think about this?
JMB
In truth, I think it might be really enjoyable to try out both ideas. We could try one way to completion and then try the second way to completion (not to try to prove one person wrong and the other right, but to learn how things might unfold using each idea...) I'd really be in favour of trying this out (I don't think our knowledge of what happens in the game we complete first will really alter what happens in the second game). What do you guys think about this?
JMB
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Interesting, two of the most respected SG players with opposite opinions. Just goes to show that there is more than one way to play this game, and play it well. Too bad Charis has missed this discussion.
As far as mobilization, obviously if we are at war forever then we are stuck mobilized forever. That's what it is to be tactless.
We could get to build (or at least start, which is all that is necessary) our commercial docks before we would mobilize (if that was our choice), because we will need at least transports to even attempt anything - and I would say battleships which is the necessary tech and the next in line. If we go to war I say mobilize sell off the research infrastructure (potentially after a couple more techs) and go full bore.
We are currently at least 11 techs behind, we cannot trade. Russia may be corrupt but they do seem to have incredible production power, and of course corruption doesn't affect culture. If we try to out GNP them, what will we do with our production power? Wealth? We have 8 or 9 of high cost Industrial techs to research that wont give us anything to build. I see a better return from military.
In my experience the AI is bad at war, I would expect at least a 3 to 1 kill ratio from us under worst case conditions. If france is that close in culture then we really don't have to destroy their homeland to be effective. Let them send stuff our way and let's have a navy with arti support to meet them. Let's bomb a few of their size 28 cities down to dust and see how that affects their GNP. Let's do whatever we can to increase our kill ratio. Nukes are potentially a problem, but I'll tell you something, I've never had a nuke tosed in all my civ3 time so I might actually enjoy losing in a nuclear fireball then going down slow to a pathetic script. I'm not sure I understand how your not subscribing to "lets take them down with us" is relevant here. Are you saying you think we can take down Russia but you don't want France to win? I say "let's take them down" and do it smart. The point isn't to take ourselves down.
In part this is just my play style. I play a thoughtfull game, but I don't like to do explicit calculations. I don't even know the first thing about numerical tech costs, just which take longer to research. In combat I don't have to do any numerical calculations, I can just use tactics and long term planning which is the biggest human advantage. I really don't think either direction is wrong but I think this would be more fun.
As far as mobilization, obviously if we are at war forever then we are stuck mobilized forever. That's what it is to be tactless.
We could get to build (or at least start, which is all that is necessary) our commercial docks before we would mobilize (if that was our choice), because we will need at least transports to even attempt anything - and I would say battleships which is the necessary tech and the next in line. If we go to war I say mobilize sell off the research infrastructure (potentially after a couple more techs) and go full bore.
We are currently at least 11 techs behind, we cannot trade. Russia may be corrupt but they do seem to have incredible production power, and of course corruption doesn't affect culture. If we try to out GNP them, what will we do with our production power? Wealth? We have 8 or 9 of high cost Industrial techs to research that wont give us anything to build. I see a better return from military.
In my experience the AI is bad at war, I would expect at least a 3 to 1 kill ratio from us under worst case conditions. If france is that close in culture then we really don't have to destroy their homeland to be effective. Let them send stuff our way and let's have a navy with arti support to meet them. Let's bomb a few of their size 28 cities down to dust and see how that affects their GNP. Let's do whatever we can to increase our kill ratio. Nukes are potentially a problem, but I'll tell you something, I've never had a nuke tosed in all my civ3 time so I might actually enjoy losing in a nuclear fireball then going down slow to a pathetic script. I'm not sure I understand how your not subscribing to "lets take them down with us" is relevant here. Are you saying you think we can take down Russia but you don't want France to win? I say "let's take them down" and do it smart. The point isn't to take ourselves down.
In part this is just my play style. I play a thoughtfull game, but I don't like to do explicit calculations. I don't even know the first thing about numerical tech costs, just which take longer to research. In combat I don't have to do any numerical calculations, I can just use tactics and long term planning which is the biggest human advantage. I really don't think either direction is wrong but I think this would be more fun.
T-hawk
Transcend
I do understand the advantages of the militaristic path, and believe me in many a game I'd take it. But, and I realize I'm rehashing well-trod territory, I don't think it's the wisest path here. We will get dogpiled, we will be stuck in mobilization, we will be stuck in wars that we can't end, we could be getting ourselves nuked, if the AIs don't offer peace we will eventually get knocked out of Republic... in short all the ways the AI self-destructs we'd be doing to ourselves. That isn't in my game plan.
Even the blundering AI can win with the kind of advantage that Russia's got. We probably can expect a kill ratio not all that far from 3-1 in our favor - but how does that help if the enemy's got six times your forces?
Arathorn, what good is slowing the race leader when there's a half-dozen others in the race? Joanie is into the Modern Age and still in Democracy. A French spaceship won't be far behind Russia's.
And look how far we already caught up! Russia was in the Industrial Age while we had seven ancient techs to go. Now they're in the Modern Age while we have ten Industrial techs to go. That's already just under an entire age of recovery - we can make another half an age especially considering the discount to steal techs as compared to researching.
But I will be behind whatever the team decides. (Wherefore art thou, Charis?) And I agree with Gothmog's opinion that if we do go to war it's all or nothing: sell the research and mobilize.
Arathorn, are you still talking about assaulting Russia's homeland, or an island? BTW, which island to attack is quite clear-cut: the one north of their home, with three ancient Russian cities (they've all expanded to 1000-culture status at least.)
Even the blundering AI can win with the kind of advantage that Russia's got. We probably can expect a kill ratio not all that far from 3-1 in our favor - but how does that help if the enemy's got six times your forces?
Arathorn, what good is slowing the race leader when there's a half-dozen others in the race? Joanie is into the Modern Age and still in Democracy. A French spaceship won't be far behind Russia's.
And look how far we already caught up! Russia was in the Industrial Age while we had seven ancient techs to go. Now they're in the Modern Age while we have ten Industrial techs to go. That's already just under an entire age of recovery - we can make another half an age especially considering the discount to steal techs as compared to researching.
But I will be behind whatever the team decides. (Wherefore art thou, Charis?) And I agree with Gothmog's opinion that if we do go to war it's all or nothing: sell the research and mobilize.
Arathorn, are you still talking about assaulting Russia's homeland, or an island? BTW, which island to attack is quite clear-cut: the one north of their home, with three ancient Russian cities (they've all expanded to 1000-culture status at least.)
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