Louis Pasteur

Quite frankly that is a ridiculous statement. If we gain another city that also has high commerce we should consider settling a scientist there also. In addition we may get another GS that can be used to bulb a tech, Philosophy/paper/education/liberalism. In comparison to the benefits that could be gained from doing either of them two things then settling the scientist is a waste, especially as the game progresses the number of beakers garnered from a settled GS mean nothing.

This is Monarch, we only know three neighboors so far. Bulbing will not very attractive due to this. Especially since we are aiming to take out the AI with strongest financial prospects (Spains gems). And remember that high commerce and high science output is not the same. A scientist will never provide less than 3 raw :science:. 3 raw :commerce: will very rarely accumulate to 3 raw :science:, barring Bureaucracy (and in that case, it will be in Arkadia or Aretania). Focus science on few key cities such as Arete and Arkadia. More academies than that will be detrimental compared to settling the scientist. And how can you argue that 6 permanent, pure, raw :science: every turn means nothing? With Lib and Academy, that is 11,25 :science:. How much are we teching atm? Is ~11:science: indecisive? My guess is we are not even teching at 100 BPT. 11 would be a huge asset now, compared to what an academy in some city would do now. It would need to yield >22 pure :science: in order to justify another academy. AFAIK, we have no cities that do this. And will not have any time soon. Far later on is, ofcourse, another perspective, but frankly, a "small" investment in the today can prove to be a huge investment in the future. Think of it like this: Due to the fact that we settle the great person for maximum immidiate boost, our tech rate increases and we reach construction 3 turns earlier than else. This, in turn, means that our war with Spain is faster and sooner, which in turn means that we will gain access to the huge :commerce: potential of Spain.

Compared to this, an Academy that pays off compared to settling in the middle ages will almost surely not be as decisive as 3 early turns to work gems, grow cottages, grow population in spanish cities, gain culture in spanish lands, earn money from spanish shrine, etc.

Please. Before deciding on academies everywhere, atleast try to consider this option. I am presenting it because I believe it is to the best of our civ, not because I want to be annoying.
 
But civ is all about the long term gain, meaning we get construction three turns earlier and so we can declare war on spain that little bit earlier is nothing compared to the eventual benefit of having an academy.

Your right this is monarch but how would bulbing not be attractive? a quick beeline to liberalism though scientists mean we can get another free tech whilst following a war with spain we are unlikely to war with Lincoln for awhile because we need some trading partners. Therefore we have the opportunity to adopt pacifsm (through bulbing philosophy) and CoL (through trade/research) from there we can be pumping out the GS at a much greater rate.

I'm not disagreing that settling GS's are a bad idea in general but in this instance it is. We can build an academy in Arkadia- nets us bonus science but also 4 extra culture which will nullify the culture they are going to be getting in Barcalona from Artemis. We don't want our borders pushed back any further.
 
I'm not disagreing that settling GS's are a bad idea in general but in this instance it is. We can build an academy in Arkadia- nets us bonus science but also 4 extra culture which will nullify the culture they are going to be getting in Barcalona from Artemis. We don't want our borders pushed back any further.

That has already happened, I'm just not sure if it was 1 TC ago or 2 :)
 
But civ is all about the long term gain, meaning we get construction three turns earlier and so we can declare war on spain that little bit earlier is nothing compared to the eventual benefit of having an academy.

yes it is! That is exactly my point. Academy will start yielding a fair bonus later than the settled scientist. This game is not only considerations about absolute gains (ie. The Academy will provide more :science: than the GS in the long run), but of relative gains (the GS will yield more :science: early on, where :science: is crucial and wins us more momentum).

Your right this is monarch but how would bulbing not be attractive? a quick beeline to liberalism though scientists mean we can get another free tech whilst following a war with spain we are unlikely to war with Lincoln for awhile because we need some trading partners. Therefore we have the opportunity to adopt pacifsm (through bulbing philosophy) and CoL (through trade/research) from there we can be pumping out the GS at a much greater rate.

Bulbing is not as attractive as if this was a difficulty where we had troubles keeping the tech pace without bulb-trading. Furthermore, since Spain will be going down sooner rather than later, we will only have 2 AIs to trade the tech with.

And why is Liberalism so important? Sure, getting a free tech is nice. But if you miss the chance to take out an enemy because you feel you MUST have Liberalism, your priorities are off.

I'm not disagreing that settling GS's are a bad idea in general but in this instance it is. We can build an academy in Arkadia- nets us bonus science but also 4 extra culture which will nullify the culture they are going to be getting in Barcalona from Artemis. We don't want our borders pushed back any further.

I understand this argument, atleast. But problem is that we are going to attack Spain and remove Barcalona. And afaik, Academy in Arkadia does not net us as many beakers as settling in Arete - at the moment.
 
And why is Liberalism so important? Sure, getting a free tech is nice. But if you miss the chance to take out an enemy because you feel you MUST have Liberalism, your priorities are off.

Well i go for it, becuase it has techs on it's route, are very important, and provide links to other vital techs like gunpowder for muskets ( i know people think they are rubbish, but it's nice to have a 9 strength unit, particulary when you have no horses and your emeny mostly has Longbowman which have no particulary counter except with brute force), i normally then get Astromery as the free tech, which A) requires a large amount of beaker and save numerous turns B) Is a tech i don't particulary like researching due to the long time it takes and the quite smallish bonus it gives straight off C) Because you go deep into the Tech tree you can trade a tech they will get soon for many other small but vital techs that you haven't researched due to your aim of reaching liberalism
 
yes it is! That is exactly my point. Academy will start yielding a fair bonus later than the settled scientist. This game is not only considerations about absolute gains (ie. The Academy will provide more :science: than the GS in the long run), but of relative gains (the GS will yield more :science: early on, where :science: is crucial and wins us more momentum).

Right but the settled GS in this case would have gained us little extra momentum. The three turns would have made a passable difference at best and as time continues it is less and less noticeable. You argue that its better to get early momentum etc but then sentances later you state that bulbing is not desirable which is a prime example of using the GS to gain earlier momentum.

Bulbing is not as attractive as if this was a difficulty where we had troubles keeping the tech pace without bulb-trading. Furthermore, since Spain will be going down sooner rather than later, we will only have 2 AIs to trade the tech with.

And why is Liberalism so important? Sure, getting a free tech is nice. But if you miss the chance to take out an enemy because you feel you MUST have Liberalism, your priorities are off.

I dont understand your point, why would you only bulb techs if you werent keeping tech pace? you bulb techs for a variety of reasons, for trade certainly but to unlock things quicker and crucially you can be unlocking tech whilst researching effectivly.

Liberalism is important because of the free tech, its gives you one but stops an AI getting one at the same time. Indeed aiming for liberalism whilst attempting to defend your homeland is a stupid idea but we're not in that situation and so liberalism is a very important/nice tech to have.

The only tech we'd be avoiding if bulbing liberalism would be machinery but we're not going to be needing that for awhile anyway.

I understand this argument, atleast. But problem is that we are going to attack Spain and remove Barcalona. And afaik, Academy in Arkadia does not net us as many beakers as settling in Arete - at the moment.

It's like arguing would you want 1 million this year or 2 million the year after. Personally i'd go for the latter as it gives us more concrete benefit than getting to construction slightly faster. I havent checked the numbers but i believe after only two turnchats the acadamy in arkadia is netting us nearly if not more as many beakers as it would have done settled in Arete.
 
A clearout: The statement about getting Construction 3 turns ealier was an imaginary example, to underline the importance of early effective teching. Since it didn't work as intended, I'll have to argue my cause in a more direct way, dissecting arguments one by one.

Well i go for it, becuase it has techs on it's route that are very important, and provide links to other vital techs like gunpowder for muskets

Agree, Education is nice and leads to Gunpowder. So does Guilds. furthermore, Edu is crucial for the Unis in any case. Philo is okay for pacifism (if you arent going to war, that is).

( i know people think they are rubbish, but it's nice to have a 9 strength unit, particulary when you have no horses and your emeny mostly has Longbowman which have no particulary counter except with brute force)

I frankly quite like 'em. That said:
1) We are Japan. We have a melee unit that is better than a musketman against longbows after one promotion.
2) We have horses, as well as iron.
3) Our enemy has mostly archers and axes, some time yet.

i normally then get Astromery as the free tech, which A) requires a large amount of beakers (and therefore save numerous turns)

Again, a long-term benefit, sure, Astronomy takes long to tech by yourself, and it is funny to grab by Lib.

B) Is a tech i don't particulary like researching due to the long time it takes and the quite smallish bonus it gives straight off

Then why hurry it with Lib?

C) Because you go deep into the Tech tree you can trade a tech they will get soon for many other small but vital techs that you haven't researched due to your aim of reaching liberalism

True. But we plan to kill off atleast one neighboor. That means fewer trades. Furthermore, the WFYABTA counts solid numbers of tech traded. That means it is better to buy relatively expansive techs than many small (unless ofc you want to clean off the AI when they hit WFYABTA). Furthermore, you don't want to trade prereqs to Lib before having Lib, and you don't want to trade a prereq to gunpowder to your neighboor. And you don't want to trade prereqs to Optics/Astro to neighboors or overseas neighboors when there are yet unexplored continents and you havent circumnavigated.

Right but the settled GS in this case would have gained us little extra momentum.

What is "little" here? The ability to run solid science with low slider due to the war?

The three turns would have made a passable difference at best and as time continues it is less and less noticeable.

They were an imaginary example, and no, they would be less and less obviously noticable. Having Spains cities 3 turns earlier would just be huger lategame, with matured cottages and better infrastructure, more tradepartners, etc.

You argue that its better to get early momentum etc but then sentances later you state that bulbing is not desirable which is a prime example of using the GS to gain earlier momentum.

True. Because I don't judge a tech like Philosophy to have significance in times of war. Correct me if I am wrong.

I dont understand your point, why would you only bulb techs if you werent keeping tech pace?

To maintain techparity due to trades.

you bulb techs for a variety of reasons, for trade certainly but to unlock things quicker and crucially you can be unlocking tech whilst researching effectivly.

Agree. But Philo is not crucial in this case. My experience is that you can buy it off an AI in good time to grab Lib if that's what you want, since they usually go for it rather than Edu.

Liberalism is important because of the free tech, its gives you one but stops an AI getting one at the same time.

I have not argued against grabbing Liberalism. I have argued against building a strategy upon wanting to get it, since it is not crucial in itself. We don't have to beeline that much to get it, especially not if we have a high techrate and lots of (Spanish) land and gems.

Indeed aiming for liberalism whilst attempting to defend your homeland is a stupid idea but we're not in that situation and so liberalism is a very important/nice tech to have.

No it isn't. Not urgent. We want techs to get this war over with. Engineering, per example. Perhaps Guilds. Then we can think of getting Lib.

The only tech we'd be avoiding if bulbing liberalism would be machinery but we're not going to be needing that for awhile anyway.

Machinery is crucial in many aspects:
1) Unlocks Crossbows, a huge military assett,
2) Unlocks Optics, needed to find new AIs and to grab Astronomy from Liberalism, as you suggested.
3) Unlocks Engineering, used for Pikemen, a solid military assett, as well as Trebs, the city-breaking siege unit.

It's like arguing would you want 1 million this year or 2 million the year after.

Except that I have the opinion that the interest from this 1 million would be larger than the gain of "waiting" a year. In this though case, 1 million on a year (100%), which is highly unreal IRL. I do think we can make more of it in this game of civ though.

Personally i'd go for the latter as it gives us more concrete benefit than getting to construction slightly faster. I havent checked the numbers but i believe after only two turnchats the acadamy in arkadia is netting us nearly if not more as many beakers as it would have done settled in Arete.

Nah. Not more concrete. To use your own math: The academy has not yet paid off. That's enough proof for me. Had the war against Spain been earlier, the solid :science: (independant of slider), would matter even more.
 
Then why hurry it with Lib?

Because it is a tech i don't like researching and is annoying to research later
I have not argued against grabbing Liberalism. I have argued against building a strategy upon wanting to get it, since it is not crucial in itself. We don't have to beeline that much to get it, especially not if we have a high techrate and lots of (Spanish) land and gems.


No it isn't. Not urgent. We want techs to get this war over with. Engineering, per example. Perhaps Guilds. Then we can think of getting Lib.

Why, trebs are nice, but cats and Samurai should suffice.

Machinery is crucial in many aspects:
1) Unlocks Crossbows, a huge military assett,
2) Unlocks Optics, needed to find new AIs and to grab Astronomy from Liberalism, as you suggested.
3) Unlocks Engineering, used for Pikemen, a solid military assett, as well as Trebs, the city-breaking siege unit.

Agree machinery is a tech we should take a look at.

Nah. Not more concrete. To use your own math: The academy has not yet paid off. That's enough proof for me. Had the war against Spain been earlier, the solid :science: (independant of slider), would matter even more.

No but it will, and give more over the longer term.
 
I've already expressed my opinion on the matter. If you have a problem with the tech path bring it up in my thread lower down.

But as the game progresses your idea of settling scientists becomes less and less valuable.

Re Machinery: If we research it, it unlocks printing press etc in our bulb queue, therefore for the time being we shouldn't. Also as has been said previously we're only up against archers and minor units, there isnt any rush to get to samurai, by the time we would be getting to machinery the war with Spain should be over and from there, there shouldnt be another desire for war.
 
I've already expressed my opinion on the matter. If you have a problem with the tech path bring it up in my thread lower down.

But as the game progresses your idea of settling scientists becomes less and less valuable.

Re Machinery: If we research it, it unlocks printing press etc in our bulb queue, therefore for the time being we shouldn't. Also as has been said previously we're only up against archers and minor units, there isnt any rush to get to samurai, by the time we would be getting to machinery the war with Spain should be over and from there, there shouldnt be another desire for war.

I'd rather have Samurai too early than too late. They are that good.

And besides, if we have Samurai, the war with Spain might be even shorter. Especially if they are flanked by pikes.
 
Especially if they are flanked by pikes.

Do the spainish have horses?
 
I'd rather have Samurai too early than too late. They are that good.

And besides, if we have Samurai, the war with Spain might be even shorter. Especially if they are flanked by pikes.

I'm not too arsed about Samurai at all tbh, we have elephants which mean we have an 8 strength unit straight off the bat. Whilst Pikes are essentially useless, we have Elephants- why would we need to bother wasting our time researching engineering if we're after pikes when they offer the same bonus vs horses. Also your thinking we should research MC-Machinery-Engineering on top of already finishing CS, what a delay in a war that would be to wait for all that. By the time we would have finished that tech plan without waiting Spain would be dead so we would have spent ages researching a load of military techs for no reason seeing as we're hardly likely to go batter Lincoln.

IIRC they do have horses.
 
Do the spainish have horses?

IIRC, yes, but better save than sorry. Plus the trebs! :drool:

I'm not too arsed about Samurai at all tbh, we have elephants which mean we have an 8 strength unit straight off the bat. Whilst Pikes are essentially useless, we have Elephants- why would we need to bother wasting our time researching engineering if we're after pikes when they offer the same bonus vs horses. Also your thinking we should research MC-Machinery-Engineering on top of already finishing CS, what a delay in a war that would be to wait for all that. By the time we would have finished that tech plan without waiting Spain would be dead so we would have spent ages researching a load of military techs for no reason seeing as we're hardly likely to go batter Lincoln.

IIRC they do have horses.

Hm. AFAIK, War Elephants:
1) Does not posess the ability to be promoted CR.
2) Does not have access to the Drill promotion line.
3) Does not have access to the Cover promotion.
4) Has a hardcounter (50:50 :strength: @ lower cost), which is available to even Spain (Spearman).
5) Has no innate first strikes.
6) Has no +50% against melee (admittedly, they have +50% against mounted, though).
7) Does not recieve defensive bonuses.

I am not against warring with Spain asap, infact I voted yes! in the poll. But I could see the necessity of samurai should we decide to kill off lincoln (a weak target :evil:) or Caesar (an annoying IND leader, IIRC). Plus, this looks like a map that would benefit from Optics sooner rather than later, which is an argument atleast for Machinery.
 
We'll probably be killing off Lincoln at somepoint i imagine yeah but not for the time being so theres no rush to get these military techs, as for unlocking optics we don't know how far Augustus's land goes before we run into more people, theres no rush to that either.

I was referring to the bonus of WE compared to pikes, which is fairly substantial seeing as we can access them now. Yeah they can be countered by spears but spears/pikes can be countered by the majority! When attacking cities i will assume that we will have suicided/bombarded enough cats on to not have to worry too much about the attacking unit tbh.
 
We'll probably be killing off Lincoln at somepoint i imagine yeah but not for the time being so theres no rush to get these military techs, as for unlocking optics we don't know how far Augustus's land goes before we run into more people, theres no rush to that either.

I was referring to the bonus of WE compared to pikes, which is fairly substantial seeing as we can access them now. Yeah they can be countered by spears but spears/pikes can be countered by the majority! When attacking cities i will assume that we will have suicided/bombarded enough cats on to not have to worry too much about the attacking unit tbh.

Mh, okay, I was thinking of main attacking units, samurai vs WE. But right, if we are superior enough to throw tonnes of siege on Spain first, axes might be just as good (not HAs though, they have a hardcounter, and swords are suboptimal aswell), so WEs and axes, plus tonnes of catties? Fine with me.

I was merely thinking, if there are no other AIs nearby, we might have to crack Lincoln soon, and if there is, we will be able to trade with AC and the other AI even if Linc is dead. So Samurai might be worth it, after Spain.
 
IIRC, yes, but better save than sorry. Plus the trebs! :drool:



Hm. AFAIK, War Elephants:
1) Does not posess the ability to be promoted CR.
2) Does not have access to the Drill promotion line.
3) Does not have access to the Cover promotion.
4) Has a hardcounter (50:50 :strength: @ lower cost), which is available to even Spain (Spearman).
5) Has no innate first strikes.
6) Has no +50% against melee (admittedly, they have +50% against mounted, though).
7) Does not recieve defensive bonuses.

I am not against warring with Spain asap, infact I voted yes! in the poll. But I could see the necessity of samurai should we decide to kill off lincoln (a weak target :evil:) or Caesar (an annoying IND leader, IIRC). Plus, this looks like a map that would benefit from Optics sooner rather than later, which is an argument atleast for Machinery.

You're underrating War Elephants. Personally, when I play a solo game on monarch, and I have a neighbour and ivory, I consider him dead.
The AI won't build many spears. Even so, in cities, archers are stronger defenders than spears most of the time. So the catapults will hit the spearmen with collateral damage. War Elephants against spearmen gives decent odds, war elephants against wounded spearmen is a walkover.
Plus, with stables, they start at 5xp, giving combat 1 + anti-melee, if needed.
 
You're underrating War Elephants. Personally, when I play a solo game on monarch, and I have a neighbour and ivory, I consider him dead.

Me too. So do I do when I have Iron and I am Japan. Don't you? I am not underrating the ellies, I love 'em, but Samurai are better.

The AI won't build many spears. Even so, in cities, archers are stronger defenders than spears most of the time.

True. Against non-mounted units, that is.

So the catapults will hit the spearmen with collateral damage.

minor collateral damage. If your read the discussion on Barrage in the strategy forum, you will know that a catapult does around 10% collateral to units in the stack. That brings our beloved spearman to 3.2 after two succesful Catty Colaterals.

War Elephants against spearmen gives decent odds, war elephants against wounded spearmen is a walkover.

Combat I War Elephant vs Combat I Spearman in city, both at full health:

Best case scenario: The city is bombarded, the terrain is flat. The strengths will look like this:
8 + (8 * .1) = 8.8
vs
4 + (4 * 1) + (4 * .25) = 9
8.8 v 9. Odds are around 55-45 in favor of the spearman.

Combat I War Elephant vs Combat I Spearman in city, Spearman is down to 3.2:

Best case scenario: Same conditions as before; flat ground, no % from culture:

8 + (8 * .1) = 8.8
v
3.2 + (3.2 * 1) + (3.2 * .25) = 7.2
8.8 v 7.2. Odds are around 70-30 in favor of the elephant.

And that is best case scenarios. If for some reason the cultural defenses are still up or the city is on a hill, if the spear has an extra promotion, whatever, the odds for the elephant is in steady decline.

I would like to know what you judge as "decent" odds? 70%? 90%? Perhaps just >50%? I normally don't risk my elephants vs spears at 70%. They're worth more.

Plus, with stables, they start at 5xp, giving combat 1 + anti-melee, if needed.

Correct. Anti-melee substracts 1 strength from the defending spearman, making a bestcase scenario 8.8v8, which is only slightly in favor of the elephant. Not decent at all for a level 3 unit. And I could add a second promo to the spear aswell, making the odds something like 8.8v8.4, which is just above 50% (I think nearly 60%, not sure).
 
Me too. So do I do when I have Iron and I am Japan. Don't you? I am not underrating the ellies, I love 'em, but Samurai are better.
War Elephants come way earlier though. With Samurai, you're usually fighting Longbowmen / Crossbowmen, with War Elephants, you're just fighting Archers, with the occasional spear.

True. Against non-mounted units, that is.
:hmm: I seem to remember from recent games that archers (city garrison I) are usually the prime defender, even with spearmen present.

I'd have to look at the combat odds, I remember them being better. Around 60% for Combat I Shock (or what's it called anti - melee )War Elephants against Combat I spearmen open ground / bombarded city.
 
War Elephants come way earlier though. With Samurai, you're usually fighting Longbowmen / Crossbowmen, with War Elephants, you're just fighting Archers, with the occasional spear.

True.

:hmm: I seem to remember from recent games that archers (city garrison I) are usually the prime defender, even with spearmen present.

Flatland: Archer: 3 base, 50% from city, 20% from promotion, 25% from fortify = 5.85
Flatland: Spearman: 4 base, 10% from promotion, 25% from fortify = 5.4
100% from mounted added = 9.4

Hills: Archer: 3 base, 50% from city, 50% from hill, 20% from promotion, 25% from fortify = 7.35
Hills: Spearman: 4 base, 25% from hill, 10% from promotion, 25% frmo fortify = 6.4
100% from mounted added = 10,4

That said, a solid tactic against archer/spear mix is catapults. These have rather good odds against archers, and if they "win", they reduce an archer to .75 base, which means that the archer will reach something like 2 modified strength even on hills, far below the collateraled spears 3.6 base, much more below the spears modified. So getting all archers down with cats and collateraling everyone else a bit makes 'em an easy target for CR Axes or Combat xbows.

I'd have to look at the combat odds, I remember them being better. Around 60% for Combat I Shock (or what's it called anti - melee )War Elephants against Combat I spearmen open ground / bombarded city.

Might be. That's like 5% off my calcs, no serious issue. :mischief:
 
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