ls612's C2C Units

[Nimek]

although fixing later build times and gold levels would be a good start

I have solution for that

1 Realistic unit upgrades - see that most of players use the same (upgraded) units for entire game making their army bigger and bigger in each turn so in modern times they have 200 units stacks.
If we will force player to disband some absolete units it will take time to build new army

2 Add suport (gold) cost to each unit starting from ancient an making it bigger and bigger in each era (ancient 1 per unit clasical 2 medieval 3 industrial 5 modern 10 )

3 Add big support cost for XP giving buildings and for building that creat military resources and gives access to special units. (ex barracks 5 turn)

4 Strategic resources modmod (units will consume food per turn) can be usefull

Idea behind that is very simple. If you want to have big well skilled military you must pay for it. You can afford only if you have strong economy.

 

[ls612]

@Nimek:

The Ancient through Medieval eras are IMO balanced. It is only in the Renaissance and beyond that costs start to lag far behind income, as well as build times start to go to almost zero. I do think that some more looking at extra costs is warranted, but not until the Renaissance.

 

[Ostrogsky]

could do with a possible start advanced to later ages, and now it's impossible.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@intlidave

I hate to say it but preaty much all of your suggestions I disagree with. These units are ones I have worked a lot with to get how we wanted them. There are some thing things I would like to add/change too. Thanks for posting but I strongly disagree with most of your stuff.

@ls612

I will be PMing you with any changes I feel should be changed based on intlidave suggestions. So please don't start changing things.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok here are some units I had been holding on to for awhile. But since intlidave brought up infantry I think I better bring them out. Please make these ...

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Obsidian Swordsman
Graphic: ?
Icon: ?
Type: Melee
Strength: 5
Movement: 1
Cost: 45
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Light Swordsman

Special Abilities

• +20% City Attack
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

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Obsidian Maceman
Graphic: ?
Icon: ?
Type: Melee
Strength: 4
Movement: 1
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Maceman

Special Abilities

• +10% City Attack
• +25% vs Melee Units
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Obsidian Axeman
Graphic: ?
Icon: ?
Type: Melee
Strength: 4
Movement: 1
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Axeman

Special Abilities

• +50% vs Melee Units
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Obsidian Spearman
Graphic: ?
Icon: ?
Type: Melee
Strength: 4
Movement: 1
Cost: 33
Req Tech: Obsidian Weapons
Req Resource: -
Req Building: -
Upgrades To: Spearman

Special Abilities

• +50% vs Mounted Units
• +50% vs Animal Units
• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

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And changes to existing units.

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Stone Axeman
Upgrades To: Obsidian Maceman OR Obsidian Swordsman
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Stone Maceman
Upgrades To: Obsidian Maceman OR Obsidian Swordsman
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Stone Spearman
Upgrades To: Obsidian Spearman OR Atl-Atl

Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Jaguar Warrior
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Lightning Warrior
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Olmec Eagle Warrior
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Chasquis
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Holkan
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Tomahawk Thrower
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Stone
• Builds 15% Faster with Obsidian
• Builds 15% Faster with Flint

-----

Ironwood Clubman
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Prime Timber (remove the Iron and Copper bonus)

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Nootka Clubman
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Prime Timber

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Wood Spearman
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Prime Timber

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Clubman
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Prime Timber

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Spiked Clubman
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Prime Timber

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Boomerang Thrower
Special Abilities

• Builds 15% Faster with Prime Timber

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Log Ram
Special Abilities

• Builds 10% Faster with Prime Timber

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Battering Ram
Special Abilities

• Builds 10% Faster with Prime Timber

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Siege Ram
Special Abilities

• Builds 10% Faster with Prime Timber

-----

Huron Manlet
Special Abilities

• Builds 10% Faster with Prime Timber

-----

Spearman
Upgrades To: Pikeman (not Light Swordsman)

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Many thanks in advance! let me know if you have any idea for obsidian unit models for those.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Might I humbly suggest holding off on those a bit longer and allowing the step to be reflected by an equipment upgrade? My concern is that we have a lot of units with similar weapon types divided by weapon qualities here and that's exactly where Equipments can be used to break things up in a more detailed power gradient. So I think we'd likely end up taking such units as Obsidian wielding anythings right out and letting obsidian weapons be equipments.

Seeing these kinds of unit developments coming up so quickly on the horizon was one reason I wanted to rush to get the Combat Mod put in place before we spent any unnecessary effort there.

And within a month or two from now I can see us easily having developed basic equipments out through at least the age these units are for.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

These are to fill in the gap between Stone weapons and Metal weapons. Currently units like the Atl-Atl have a big advantage over the melee since they upgrade while the melee have to wait a long while before they can upgrade. Having something between would help. Before we use to have the Tomahawk Thrower, but now that's a culture unit so there is gap.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sure... I completely understand and if you feel it would be worth taking the time to make these units only to remove them when equipment upgrade developments can completely replace them then by all means.

Basically, I'm saying that units should differentiate primarily based on their weapon and armor definition sets and possibly by upgrades in warfare strategies in general. Everything else in between should be steps up in equipments.

So take our current clubmen for example. We should just have Clubmen. I'll be suggesting to remove the spiked clubmen and ironwood clubmen and replace those units with Club Weapon upgrades of basically the same nature. Any differences we currently express between the basic Clubman (2 str for example) vs the Spiked Clubman (which steps up to 3 str) can be easily handled via the equipment promo upgrade being applied. So as soon as the same qualifications take place that allows us to upgrade our units from Clubmen to Spiked Clubmen now, we'd introduce the next line step for Club weapons and it would automatically be handed to Clubman units that visit a city that can deliver those new Spiked Clubs to them.

Then we can vary the quality of the clubs too and represent numerous smaller steps up in between.

Does this make sense? Since this kind of modding is so soon to be completely available, I'd think we'd want to start planning for that rather than creating more units to fill stages in between that will naturally be filled in with a nice smooth development gradient with Equipment promo upgrades instead.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ironwood Clubman is a culture unit of the Mapuche culture. Unlike a normal "club" the Ironwood Clubman is actually using a huge clubbed staff made of ironwood. Thus it deserves to be its own unit. Especially since its a culture unit and not a general unit. Most culture units have a national limit of 15.

Also culture units cannot be upgraded to but they can upgrade into other units. This is to prevent UU exploiting where people would upgrade one UU into another UU and make an uber unit.

You do know which units are general units and which are culture units right?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok... fair 'nuff on the ironwood clubman... I'd not seen them in action so I had made an inappropriate assumption about what they were.

But how do you feel about the rest of what I'm saying there? The clubman to spiked clubman is a good example of what I mean and can you see how that example applies to the obsidian weapon units you're proposing as well?

They aren't a change in weapon, but in weapon quality. And THAT step up could be nicely represented by equipment upgrades for those units into obsidian weapons that would have the same effects in providing an increase in power and ability but no need for a whole new unit definition and art defines. (later, art can be made to change along with equip changes too btw.)

 

[Nimek]

@Hydro and Thunder

To not put unnecessary effort add this units with teh same graphics as standard axeman swordsman but simply add diffrent name and stats. It will be temporary solution before Combat Mod will full implemented

 

[Thunderbrd]

I suppose that'd be the easy fix for now. Even though we could get started with combat mod equipment sets, it'd be a while before we could get all units aligned to that system and perhaps the whole base mod shouldn't be tampered with until its pretty much complete and balanced.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok... fair 'nuff on the ironwood clubman... I'd not seen them in action so I had made an inappropriate assumption about what they were.

But how do you feel about the rest of what I'm saying there? The clubman to spiked clubman is a good example of what I mean and can you see how that example applies to the obsidian weapon units you're proposing as well?

They aren't a change in weapon, but in weapon quality. And THAT step up could be nicely represented by equipment upgrades for those units into obsidian weapons that would have the same effects in providing an increase in power and ability but no need for a whole new unit definition and art defines. (later, art can be made to change along with equip changes too btw.)

Well I see a few issues ...

1. Strength of a unit. Will upgrading its weapons also upgrade its unit strength? For instance the early melee units are subtle in their upgrades ...

Brute (STR 1) -> Clubman (STR 2) -> Spike Clubman (STR 3) -> Stone Maceman (STR 3) -> Maceman (STR 5) -> Flailman (STR 10)

2. What about upgrade costs? Will upgrading equipment cost money like it dose to upgrade one unit to another unit?

3. How's the art work? I know we have limits for what art we have to use but even iof we did how would it work?

EDIT: On a side not some of the "flavor" art for different civs really do not match their units. it would be nice if we had some standard models for things and then the "flavors" could be worked in in a mode organic way by what cultures you had. Or what weapons you were using. For instance I think the Mongols use Javelins for their Archers. When really they should look like archers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well I see a few issues ...

1. Strength of a unit. Will upgrading its weapons also upgrade its unit strength? For instance the early melee units are subtle in their upgrades ...

Brute (STR 1) -> Clubman (STR 2) -> Spike Clubman (STR 3) -> Stone Maceman (STR 3) -> Maceman (STR 5) -> Flailman (STR 10)

2. What about upgrade costs? Will upgrading equipment cost money like it dose to upgrade one unit to another unit?

3. How's the art work? I know we have limits for what art we have to use but even iof we did how would it work?

EDIT: On a side not some of the "flavor" art for different civs really do not match their units. it would be nice if we had some standard models for things and then the "flavors" could be worked in in a mode organic way by what cultures you had. Or what weapons you were using. For instance I think the Mongols use Javelins for their Archers. When really they should look like archers.

1) YES! One of the wonders of the Combat Mod... a promotion may now increase a unit's strength with iStrengthChange. (The integer is the amount the promo adds to the unit's strength. This one was pretty much adopted from FFH2 coding though implemented in the dll slightly differently.)

2) it would deny the upgrade cost to go about it with just equipments. The rationale for not attaching costs to equipment upgrades are:

• Private sales (perhaps not as valid a concept in the prehistoric age but is gold at all valid in the prehistoric age?) of new equipments produce tax revenue to counteract the costs of upgrading state units to the best available equipments.
• The AI on it would be hell to adapt if we included costs with equipments.
• Since equipments are neatly automatic it would be unfair to enforce the costs and would thus require that we enforce that its a choice to upgrade equipments. The current coding strategy on this, not yet quite completed but on the list of highest priority to establish, is to allow for re-equipping if two equipments that are equally valuable but different in effect, along the same line are available in the same city. Thus, you'll have choice to switch to an equally valid weapon in the same category but will automatically upgrade when better comes along (provided you visit a city offering that upgrade.)

This means that upgrade costs aren't associated with minor adjustments in improved equipment grabs. So if the unit is taking a significant jump in training methodology or adapting a whole new weapon/armor category step, we can presume excess funds will be necessary to make that happen, thus a unit upgrade and the costs associated with it.

So if you want a step of this nature to take place where you want to add these obsidian units, perhaps its just a matter of a nomenclature adjustment that could make that more valid (such as an upgrade from a Crude Archer to an Archer rather than an upgrade from an Archer to an Obsidian Archer - implying that both can use obsidian weaponry but one is more advanced in skills trainings in general than the other, representing improved learned strategies over the time spent using these weapons as a civilization.)

3)There's a huge and well written tutorial on changing unit arts according to promotions existing on units in the tutorials section on this site. I'll try to locate it for you when I catch a moment.

And yes, it could be used to help us further refine cultural art tweaks too since we can add cultural promos that auto assign to units from a local cultural building (that only one of any given culture could be built in a given city).

 

[intlidave]

@intlidave

I hate to say it but preaty much all of your suggestions I disagree with. These units are ones I have worked a lot with to get how we wanted them. There are some thing things I would like to add/change too. Thanks for posting but I strongly disagree with most of your stuff.

Could you elaborate on that a bit?
What my first post (pre-musketman units) boils down to is plugging holes in the various lines and shuffling some units around that necessitates.
The second post (musketman and beyond) mostly tries to unify bonuses within the various infantry lines and reduce their number in Modern era (6-7 parallel lines, not counting hunters and snipers).
And of course repositioning the occasional National unit that upgrades into a line corresponding to its equipment.
The changes themselves can be done in any number of ways, but I maintain that having multiple units filling the same role in one era and no unit for that role in next is something to be avoided. As is having too many parallel lines of one unit type that blend into each other.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@intlidave

Things like the Phak’ak and the upgrading of the swordsman I agree with. The Phak’ak never should have been that way. It was an over loooked mistake. The other info I posted helps better have the Swords line upgrade instead of from the spears line.

The main issue I have are things like re-working the polarms line. Especially moving the Heavy Pikeman and adding Halberd. I think much of this also will be covered with the combat mod. And much of the other part is just disagreeing with the Atl-Atl changes. it was specifically ment to be a hybrid unit linking spears, javelins and archery.

Dog Soldier was not an axe but a war club. Which was mainly for bashing in the skulls of their enemies.

Oh but I do agree that the Early Skirmisher should be renamed Skirmisher. It was the name I originally asked for but for some reason "early" was added.

 

[AIAndy]

2) it would deny the upgrade cost to go about it with just equipments. The rationale for not attaching costs to equipment upgrades are:

• Private sales (perhaps not as valid a concept in the prehistoric age but is gold at all valid in the prehistoric age?) of new equipments produce tax revenue to counteract the costs of upgrading state units to the best available equipments.
• The AI on it would be hell to adapt if we included costs with equipments.
• Since equipments are neatly automatic it would be unfair to enforce the costs and would thus require that we enforce that its a choice to upgrade equipments. The current coding strategy on this, not yet quite completed but on the list of highest priority to establish, is to allow for re-equipping if two equipments that are equally valuable but different in effect, along the same line are available in the same city. Thus, you'll have choice to switch to an equally valid weapon in the same category but will automatically upgrade when better comes along (provided you visit a city offering that upgrade.)

What about introducing some war equipment properties that are produced by certain buildings and then used up for equipping units. For ease of use a global pool for the player could be used (you can attach properties to players and buildings can source into the player pool). So you add a property cost to the equipment promotion XML and add an additional check to the automatic equipment upgrade handling to see if there is enough and then subtract the cost from the player pool.

 

[strategyonly]

What about introducing some war equipment properties that are produced by certain buildings and then used up for equipping units. For ease of use a global pool for the player could be used (you can attach properties to players and buildings can source into the player pool). So you add a property cost to the equipment promotion XML and add an additional check to the automatic equipment upgrade handling to see if there is enough and then subtract the cost from the player pool.

Now that is an excellent suggestion!

 

[Thunderbrd]

What about introducing some war equipment properties that are produced by certain buildings and then used up for equipping units. For ease of use a global pool for the player could be used (you can attach properties to players and buildings can source into the player pool). So you add a property cost to the equipment promotion XML and add an additional check to the automatic equipment upgrade handling to see if there is enough and then subtract the cost from the player pool.

That's probably not a bad idea... but it means setting all this up will take a fairly comprehensive building review... but then again, we need to review buildings to establish where equipment handouts are taking place anyhow... hmm...

It would seem MORE rational to me if we had equipments grouped by their materials and had those materials building up (and now we're drifting back over into the resources handled volumetrically by properties regions of game design planning... THAT could make for an interesting connection between the two!)

But since such a plan would immediately snowball way beyond all rationale for now, I think it a good idea to just establish the proxy 'Equip Points' for now. However, how would I make the start work? Almost every unit will have equipment, even if its just 'rocks' handed to them when they initialize (aside from that first free unit which may want to hang around enough to go GET his first equipment from the newly founded city.) Hm... maybe the Palace itself needs to add like 1 equip per round just to make sure it doesn't get too much in the way at first.

 

[AIAndy]

That's probably not a bad idea... but it means setting all this up will take a fairly comprehensive building review... but then again, we need to review buildings to establish where equipment handouts are taking place anyhow... hmm...

It would seem MORE rational to me if we had equipments grouped by their materials and had those materials building up (and now we're drifting back over into the resources handled volumetrically by properties regions of game design planning... THAT could make for an interesting connection between the two!)

But since such a plan would immediately snowball way beyond all rationale for now, I think it a good idea to just establish the proxy 'Equip Points' for now. However, how would I make the start work? Almost every unit will have equipment, even if its just 'rocks' handed to them when they initialize (aside from that first free unit which may want to hang around enough to go GET his first equipment from the newly founded city.) Hm... maybe the Palace itself needs to add like 1 equip per round just to make sure it doesn't get too much in the way at first.

You could make the basic equipment free when building the unit.
The important thing is to add that there is a property cost in the equipment promotion XML, then the XML people can add it to any equipment and it is also pure XML work to add any further equipment properties later.
To do that add a CvProperties instance to the info class. It is quite simple to use and you can check the building info for some examples. You can also check CvOutcomeMission for how to use it as a cost.