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Lumber Mill buff has ruined the Maori

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Pietato, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    Do not get me wrong; the Lumber Mill buff is great and was very much needed (though I believe they still should benefit from rivers, at least until combustion). The consequences were just not all accounted for, however.

    Currently, the Maori receive +1 production from unimproved woods and rainforests, increasing to +2 at Conservation. The new Lumber Mill starts at +2, eventually increasing to +4. This means that the Maori will have to improve their land basically right from the minute Lumbermills are discovered, severely nerfing one of their primary defining traits. I really, really do not want to have to spam Lumber Mills as the Maori to keep up in production :(

    Giving the Maori an extra +1 to unimproved Forests and Rainforests early in the culute tree would be best, meaing Lumbermills only surpass their defining trait in the late game.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  2. CaptainUnknown

    CaptainUnknown Warlord

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    I disagre on that the Maori are nerfed, but I'm indifferent on whether or not they deserve a change. They are still unique in that their early builders don't need to be used on lumbermills. Builder charges are limited and the Maori's bonuses allow them to be used elsewhere.

    It doesn't make sense to add more to unimproved tiles as they essentially get the bonus for free. It's a non-choice and no flavor. Other Civs get bonuses at flight but those usually make sense as they are tourism related.

    Now there is some small degree of depth here for the Maori player. Is it worth the hammers for a builder to squeeze a little bit more out of my woods/rain forest tiles or can I wait and still be in a good state. I would prefer something that perhaps buffed unimproved rainforests venus buffing the Maori. Like in civ5 you can get science in from jungles (or maybe that's in civ6 already?) because then the player has a choice. The choice being they get less hammers because no lumbermills, but they can enhance tile with a policy or however they do it.
     
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  3. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

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    Nice catch. I think you still get the Marae bonus when building a lumber mill so there's not a trade off there either.
     
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  4. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Kupe == Do Not Chop or only wait for the proper moment(s)! AFAIC.

    The rational thinking with this patch productivity patterns (even to/for any other Civs) is that there are always alternate solutions balanced enough to maintain relatively good flow of hammers.
    The real drama falls more into how & when anyone (including AI, btw) must react towards whatever rational priorities. This **is** typical of any good strategy choices we all hold dear as **the** optimal condition(s) that reliably fills our key goals.

    Sooooo, between buffing & nerfing almost anything within this gameplay ruleset -- i'll just pick both anytime & still develop a counter-reaction as need be. Maori or Not.
     
  5. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    Of course it is a nerf. It means having to spend more builder charges and having less National Parks.

    If the Maori gained +3 to unimproved Forests and Rainforests, then it would actually mean a real choice: +3 production, builder charge and possible national parks vs. 4 production. As it stands, you will be using lumber mills ASAP. They come so early and start at +2 (which Maori need Conservation to match) meaning you would fall seriously behind in production if you did not use them.
     
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  6. CaptainUnknown

    CaptainUnknown Warlord

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    I'd argue that it's a relative buff for the Maori. After the first nerf to Maori it back in the spring it was obviously intended that the players shouldn't be able to have super tile yeilds with low tradeoffs. Having these lumbermills buff the Maori in that they get a distinct advantage turn one to settling in rainforest and woods. that advantage allows them to delay lumbermills. The Maori are actually more incentivized now to settle all the rainforest because late game they can transition into lumber mills and be as powerful as other civ's mining cities. Previously if Maori settled in these places they would not be able to really produce like other nations late game... Now they can.
    So in summary: Maori can start in "weaker" territory with a distinct advantage over peer civilizations. They can use their bonuses to be productive while other nations are more likely to settle else where. Late game, Maori can transition into lumbermills and still be on the same level as other civs who got their production elsewhere. Lumbermills buff the flexibility of the Maori.

    I understand you liked the aspect of unimproved tiles being strong, but as a bonus it is essentially too good. +3 production, builder charge and national parks out-weigh +4. The game has many abilities that lose their luster as the game goes on and I think it's appropriate that unimproved tiles are not strong late game. Frankly, if the Maori did get extra bonuses I would think it was silly. It just doesn't make thematic sense. Their whole bonuses allow them to flexible in the early game, that is what their design is about. That being said, this has mod potential so if you truly want to see it you can certainly make it happen.
     
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  7. SxSnts9

    SxSnts9 Warlord

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    The way you guys are discussing...I must not being understanding. It sounds like you're saying you can have a lumbermill on a tile and still throw down a national park on it? Or do you mean that lumbermills don't lower appeal of surrounding tiles so you can still fit in a national park around them? Sorry if I'm being obtuse.
     
  8. CaptainUnknown

    CaptainUnknown Warlord

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    No worries. No you can't have a lumbermill in a national park. Since the Maori doesn't need lumbermills to get some production from forests, they could instead turn the 4 hexes into a national park. So in theory, Maori could have a strong woods/rain forest start, don't use lumbermills, and when the time comes they can make a national park. Other nations can't do this because they don't get woods/rain forest bonuses. Other civs "need" lumbermills if they are settling in these areas. After a civ puts down the lumbermills its more effort to remove the improvement and turn into a park, plant trees as needed, etc. The Maori can skip this step since they get a production bonus and can live without lumber mills.

    I don't do culture victories often but I'm pretty sure you can still work tiles in a national park, they are just weaker. For the Maori their parks would be less weak than other civs because they have bonuses to unimproved woods/rain forests.
     
  9. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    Maori settling in Forest and Rainforest was always good, especially if they were on hills. You always targeted this land, thanks to the Marae. I seriously have to question if you have actually ever used the Maori...

    There is also no choice now. You will build Lumber Mills, or you will fall behind those who do.
     
  10. Icicle

    Icicle Prince

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    I noticed this when they announced the buff to lumber mills. Building a bunch of logging camps as the save-the-earth civ seems really off.
     
  11. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

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    They should just get +1 for forest and rainforest full stop. Added to whatever else is built there from the beginning of the game to the end.
     
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  12. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I thought people just used them for the boring UU anyway . . .
     
  13. CaptainUnknown

    CaptainUnknown Warlord

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    I am saying that in my opinion they should have to build lumber mills. They shouldn't be able to compete the entire game with no improvements, that gameplay element is something I don't enjoy. I am saying the Maori can get by longer by not having to upgrade to lumber mills, But I do agree that they need to upgrade at some point but I also think that balance and gameplay wise it makes sense and I like the way it appears now. Again, I refer back to spring when they nerfed the +2 to +1. Haven't played them with new patch. Lets just agree to disagree on this.

    As for them always settling that land, I am aware, but I was writing my argument in the context with other civs. The Maori flavor and advantage are still present, which was my argument.
     
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  14. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, the main "problems" are with lumber mills coming earlier, and with the +2 bonus on every tile right away, they don't get nearly the same benefit as previously. It's still a great bonus to have starting at turn 1, for sure, and they do still get the rainforest boost for a good portion of the game that other civs don't. Moving the second boost from conservation up to an earlier point would be at least something to balance things out.
     
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  15. Nerevatar

    Nerevatar Warlord

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  16. Medopu

    Medopu Warlord

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    You are maybe forgetting that other civs have mainly lost that competitive cultural edge over Maori. The penalty of not getting great writers has been completely nerfed.

    Maori might have lost a slight edge but they gained a really valuable cultural upper hand over other civs. Not getting great writers is not really a big hinderance for maori anymore.
     
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  17. CaptainUnknown

    CaptainUnknown Warlord

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    That seems like good solution. I'd be fine with any change really. I am not against a change, I just think it's boring as a player to have so much for free. Part of the fun is lining up things just right to maximize everything. With Maori it's boring that the best situation for my woods/rainforest cities is to do relatively little title-improvement wise for most the game.
     
  18. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    So, lumber mills were buffed to keep mines from outshining them?

    So, lumber mills are now mines that don't impose a hit to appeal? And they provide the same adjacency bonuses for IZ's?

    Ergo, lumber mills are now quantifiably more desirable than mines?

    I guess they were really more concerned with disincentivizing coops than they were with improvement parity.

    The most disappointing bit for me is stripping the riverside bonus from the mills to make them all homogeneous. It's always nice to see situations where the map really matters.
     
  19. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    Makes sense right? After all lumber mills require you to keep the woods instead of chopping it away... There should be some reward for that. It also makes flatland cities not horrible in certain circumstances
     
  20. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, in fact it seems to make wooded cities notably better, since they offer both positive appeal (instead of negative) as well as the option to chop if desired. And perhaps more to the point, identical production output makes wooded regions rather indistinguishable form hilly regions. The map doesn't need to be more homogeneous. If they're going to raise the median production of a city, that's all good and well, but there need to be peaks and valleys, not a flat output that evens most cities out. I don't want to play a poker game where every hand is two pairs of 7's and 8's.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
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