Gori the Grey
The Poster
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Plus, I'm not up on all the latest video games. Maybe the controllers have changed.
Lying-flatism
- Thread starter Gori the Grey
- Start date
Broken_Erika
Play with me.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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- Jan 26, 2008
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varies by person for sure, though you can get broad trends statistically. not a lot of stable marriages where the man starts off earning more than the woman, then that reverses at some point. enormous differences in willingness to "date down" in terms of earnings/prestige in jobs.
the term "lying flat" is new to me, but the concept of people behaving according to incentives...with significant disincentive for relationships in past few decades...isn't new. increase the risk and cost, without increasing the reward (or even decreasing), and you get less of that thing. doesn't matter what the thing in question is.
there are a lot of things people who really want a relationship can do, both through improving themselves and simply through broadening who they communicate with, to vastly improve their odds. these are costly in time and resources though. another way to put it is that a good % of people who are "incel" are not actually, despite claiming so. they are either unaware of the steps they need to take, or unwilling to pay the costs.
for those with more healthy-minded outlooks, they can look at the cost propositions and just conclude "nah, juice isn't worth the squeeze" and find other things to enjoy in life. and i do think this is healthier than depending on external validation or "being in a relationship" to be content. it's more like something each person has to evaluate how much they really want against the tradeoffs.
in the long term, this will put a squeeze on governance though. contracting populations isn't sustainable with current government models. nations depend on societal structures that seem to be disappearing. china's already trying to incentivize more children, though apparently not to much success.
ruling class does not like the "lying flat" concept, or whatever else you want to call it. if too many people go that route, it is incredibly destructive to current societal structure. fewer people striving to advance implies less productivity, and being fine with single-ness implies fewer people doing the reduced productivity. these go strongly against what the ruling class wants. to the point where i wouldn't be surprised to see them try to penalize the behavior after incentives don't work.
not necessarily at individual level, but at the statistical level probably. i think behavior with online dating apps backs that conclusion to a degree too. mostly the people not lying flat will be pursued and have their pick. some that don't get picked will "settle", quite a few will remain single. i'm not sure feeling like one has "settled" is the healthier course either. it breeds resentment, and betrayal if new opportunities arise. i'm sure there are lots of factors relevant to increase in divorce rate, but having more people going in thinking they've "settled" or similar being helpful is something i strongly doubt.
this is an estimate though. we'll see how it plays out. if 90% of the population is "lying flat", then at least some of them must fall in the top 20%, lol. perhaps it's just a new equilibrium of relative productivity that doesn't change the *long term* relationship outcomes much at all! these things are hard to predict.
think he made a false attribution. i suspect it's true that older people make new friends less frequently, simply due to the fact that time is finite and most people will have made as many friends as they're willing/able to find time for. i have numerous sustained friendships of > 10-15 years now. they're people with similar interests who i communicate with regularly. in high school or college, there were only a couple people with enough similar interests/circumstances to last > 4 years. nearly every case, it wasn't even a conscious decision; we simply started hanging out with each other less and with more similarly interested people more. still on friendly terms on the rare occasions we catch up!
i don't see how this follows as "from biology", at least not in a sense where the distinction is useful. other than that people don't change as much or as rapidly once they're adults compared to when they were younger?
being self-sustainable and (apparently) content seem like *enormous* steps up from that. i don't think too many people who fit that description polled themselves as content, or that staying as they are is preferable? way fewer social interactions too.
depends what you call "hard work". there are people for whom running 14 miles a week is trivial, and many for whom it is not at all trivial. relationships imply some sacrifices from both sides, and yes at least some effort when it comes to the other person. how "hard" that effort feels depends on the expectations of both sides too.
another example of this is to compare how two different people playing civ feel about learning it. it's a highly effortful task, to become a good player. to the point where some people who play for > 1000 hours remain mediocre. this is about a *game*, that's supposed to be *fun*. and it is, if it's something you want to do. now try putting a person who doesn't enjoy video games generally in front of the screen and ask them to learn become a deity player.
good luck with that. if someone only has a relatively small interest in romantic relationships, increasing their burden will "price them out of the market", so to speak. the more you raise the cost, the fewer will pay it. even if some of them would enjoy it in a vacuum.
were i to accept the existence of such, i would ask this as well, with more *ing examples still.
Narz
keeping it real
Keep doing that until it's not fun anymore I guess.
It's pretty much the world's pastime rn.
Ruling class doesn't care as long as these people still playing the game. Lying flat types aren't gonna be willing to put in the effort to be overly countercultural
My definition of hard is burdensome. If love is a burden resentment is inevitable.
What's one of the most annoying statements in a relationship? "After all I've done for you?!!"
Do for people with love or not at all. No one wants to hear about your sacrifice. Find a way to enjoy it or don't play.
I respect these lying flat folks in that if you're not passionate and aware that you're not don't try to play like you are. In that way they're better than the hustley types who claim they're hardcore when actually they're not they just wish they were.
You can really only gaf about so much in life but there should be a few things at least and apathy isn't really something to celebrate. I'm lazy about most things but I'm not proud of it
Joij21
🔥Deny, Defend, Depose!🔥
Uhh the counterculture plays the game simply by spending money in a way that's more expressive (thereby consuming more)
A passionless stay at home is only spending on food nothing more, possibly welfare to sustain it all. Thus it is thereby deemed parasitical and intrinsically subhuman.
aelf
Ashen One
It appears my previous post might have been entirely too reasonable 
So let's up the ante a bit.
I don't think people in the more enlightened parts of the West, where the number of hours people work are regulated, where it's customary to stop work at the end of the stipulated work day, can really claim to be "lying flat". Yes, what you literally do may be the same, but the reasons are entirely different. You do it because that's more or less the norm there, an established tradition, a core part of your extant hegemonic culture. Where the "lying flat" movement comes from, it's a reaction to their hegemonic culture, an opposition towards the norm. It's a form of protest. Heck, I'm not even sure I'm lying flat. Yes, the norm here is quite similar, but the demand that I comply is nowhere as heavy.
Don't. Appropriate. Others'. Resistance. Efforts.
There.
On a more personal note, I have hit all the usual milestones that people, on average, seem aspire to (except having children, but that's not within my control). And I gotta say there's nothing remarkable about it. Yeah, yeah, millionaires and billionaires might say the same about having money, and I get that it sounds annoying and maybe hypocritical. But, honestly, true freedom is when you don't need to do something you dislike in order to be comfortable. I value that more than the typical middle class goals (i.e. home, marriage, family). And so my lying about quest continues.
So let's up the ante a bit.
I don't think people in the more enlightened parts of the West, where the number of hours people work are regulated, where it's customary to stop work at the end of the stipulated work day, can really claim to be "lying flat". Yes, what you literally do may be the same, but the reasons are entirely different. You do it because that's more or less the norm there, an established tradition, a core part of your extant hegemonic culture. Where the "lying flat" movement comes from, it's a reaction to their hegemonic culture, an opposition towards the norm. It's a form of protest. Heck, I'm not even sure I'm lying flat. Yes, the norm here is quite similar, but the demand that I comply is nowhere as heavy.
Don't. Appropriate. Others'. Resistance. Efforts.
There.
On a more personal note, I have hit all the usual milestones that people, on average, seem aspire to (except having children, but that's not within my control). And I gotta say there's nothing remarkable about it. Yeah, yeah, millionaires and billionaires might say the same about having money, and I get that it sounds annoying and maybe hypocritical. But, honestly, true freedom is when you don't need to do something you dislike in order to be comfortable. I value that more than the typical middle class goals (i.e. home, marriage, family). And so my lying about quest continues.
I see nothing wrong with lying flat/quiet quitting. Anyone who keeps showing the same activity in their work regardless of lack of reward by the employer, is at best acting on blind faith.
Sometimes it may get them somewhere, yes, but it's not a given, nor is it more sensible to not react to diminishing rewards by diminishing (past the essential) work for that employer.
Then again the issue is having an employer in the first place; people can not feel like doing work, even if they are their own employer, so obviously this is more prevalent when they are not.
Sometimes it may get them somewhere, yes, but it's not a given, nor is it more sensible to not react to diminishing rewards by diminishing (past the essential) work for that employer.
Then again the issue is having an employer in the first place; people can not feel like doing work, even if they are their own employer, so obviously this is more prevalent when they are not.
RobAnybody
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2009
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- 1,952
What I have enjoyed most about this thread is how some posters both try to appropriate the "lying flat" thingamajig for themselves (except for this, oh & this, & also this...) while also later talking poop about it. 
I say let people do whatever makes them happy, No reason to think these people are lying (heh) about it, or that they really mean *this* when they say *that*. Go for it, lying flat people!
I say let people do whatever makes them happy, No reason to think these people are lying (heh) about it, or that they really mean *this* when they say *that*. Go for it, lying flat people!
r16
not deity
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- Nov 10, 2008
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post #124 up above discusses my take at nobles and argues this is against their interests . True and wrong . With AI , like always just around the corner and a few tigers of their own they can keep their profits up ; whole countries are being dumbed down . But also true that it might also bite them hard if something or anything happens to , ı don't know , the narrative ...
Mise
isle of lucy
I'm not sure why anyone's still engaging with certain posts in this thread tbh. There are lots of good, thoughtful posts that we could be discussing instead.
H4run
Deity
Even that doesn't make it right.
Aelf and I are Asian. Will that make Asians another subhuman on your list? I understand your point about the importance of people putting up works and struggles, doing work that may not always be enjoyable but we doing it nevertheless due to taking responsibility over ourselves, our families, and our communities. As a parent, I know exactly what it means to do something you don't like due to responsibility, and that process helps one mature and become stronger, and sometimes bitter as well. However, these conditions may not apply to everyone, or there may be people in similar circumstances who have a different perspective and don't agree with your point.
Your choice of words won't convince anyone; it only reflects your own frustration and repels others that you suppose to convince even further. Furthermore, no one here deserves to be categorized as subhuman. "Subhuman" is a label used to dehumanize individuals or communities, allowing oneself to become desensitized when treating them poorly, akin to cleaning rats. Decent peoples or even your regular bastard, wouldn't casually throw around such words.
Lexicus
Deity
Oh dear, okay, I take back saying I was a lying-flatist earlier in the thread, I didn't realize the stakes were this high.
Can I call myself an anti-hustler instead?
Also think there are some significant issues with the facts as you've laid them out here. In the US hours of work are not regulated, workers in non-exempt categories (generally those who earn an hourly wage as opposed to salary) are owed time-and-a-half for every hour they work above 40, but there is no upper limit of hours per week or anything like that. And people frequently work multiple jobs to hit 60-70 hours a week.
In fact in the US if you have a job that respects your boundaries and accepts that you have a life outside work, that is really not the norm or even all that common. I would not say that having healthy work-life balance is anywhere close to "hegemonic", it's more like something some people are lucky enough to have.
The "hustle" culture is far more hegemonic in the US than a healthy work-life balance is.
Joij21
🔥Deny, Defend, Depose!🔥
I have a personal philosophy whereby I only believe in that which is useful to me and nothing else.
For instance I reject Socialism on the basis that it has no use within my personal life nor ever will. Same thing with intersectionality and accusations of cultural appropriation.
Narz
keeping it real
We? If you want to discuss discuss, don't just lie flat and wait for others to talk your talk
Was this meant ironicly or just coincidence?
Narz
keeping it real
So you're a selfish bastard basically?
Joij21
🔥Deny, Defend, Depose!🔥
I'd become Socialist only if it started to personally benefit me as an individual.
If not or it puts too many burdens on me, never comes to pass, or the revolution/civil war that brings it about brings too much risk to me personally. Then I don't want it.
I suspect there is no real reason to anticipate that which is most impossible in coming about though if in comparison say both could benefit but one clearly pleasures me more I'll choose the one that pleasures me more, as in Capitalism.
On Capitalism I'll only reject it if the corporatists refuse to give me tribute, then I'll like leftist stuff on YouTube to allow it to gain traction among the masses in order to "put pressure on the rear" so as to extort cash from the corporatists. If they refuse only then would I throw myself into support of the left, if they pay then I'll start liking anti-leftist stuff on YouTube in order to help the reactionaries for being good little boys and paying the tithe.
So give me free gibs!!
GenMarshall
High Elven ISB Capt & Ghost Agent
More like “I have mine, the rest of y’all can eat cake!”.
H4run
Deity
You understand that you can't measure what system is good for a society, let alone a country, only using you as a measurement, right? Like Narz say that makes you sounds like a selfish bastard or a sociopath, and I don't think you take what you said seriously, and you shouldn't be surprise if peoples stop taking you and your opinion seriously either after that. Go do your to do list that's a better and healthier catharsis for whatever problem you are having right now.
Joij21
🔥Deny, Defend, Depose!🔥
Why not?
Is there really a true universalist ideal other than the self? We after all only perceive reality through the self, so I believe I can therefore conclude true universalism is selfishness.
Anything else is pure ideology.