Maap Iii?

[donsig]

Since we are now talking about the Industrial Ages as being close at hand, it is now time to consider a possible MAAP III. Do we want (or need) one? If so, we need to tackle the same questions we did for MAAP II:

• How do we divide the tech tree?
• How do we divide wonders?
• How do we handle optional techs?
• Do we include another DAA agreement?

In addition, we have some new things to consider (which we may or may not want to include in a MAAP III treatry):

• Joint military action against BABE and / or the Sbybrary.
• Luxury trades
• Resource trades

Nationalism is an optional tech we may or may not get for free. It may be one we want if faced with another BABE invasion. Sanitation is an optional tech we want.

Wonders are more problematic I think. Theory of Evolution and the Hoover Dam are the best and I'd want both but I'm sure FREE will also want one. Universal Suffrage only helps a democracy - which is an optional tech from before the industrial age.

How we divide the tree is important, too since we really need to find out where the coal and oil are. Replaceable parts is always important. I'm sure of the best way to go about dividing the tree, but wanted to get a discussion going.

There is also the first question:

Do we want another MAAP treaty?

 

[peter grimes]

I think, at this point, we'd be smart to investigate the possibilities of an arrangement with Saber. Their UU is starting to draw near.

But didn't we have something with Free about conjoining against everyone else is neutralized?..

 

[donsig]

I think, at this point, we'd be smart to investigate the possibilities of an arrangement with Saber. Their UU is starting to draw near.

But didn't we have something with Free about conjoining against everyone else is neutralized?..

Are you suggesting a menage a trois braintrust against BABE and GONG or advocating we dump FREE in favor of an agreement just with SABER?

 

[peter grimes]

Either or, really.

We're in a weak position in this game right now, so we need to make sure we have the right friends in the right places. I don't see Gong as a threat - but Saber certainly is.

I guess a threesome would be the first choice, rather than just cutting Free off entirely.

 

[Paul#42]

I also think we should open ourselves for negotiations with SABER. I think they (Chamnix, Dutchfire) are very trustworthy and if we can bind them to a long term peace I would not hesitate to unleash their Sipahi power.

If SABER is on our side till we got tanks, that can only be our benefit. They have lots of others to test their Sipahis on.

Or should we fear that they might do short work of a demoralized BABE empire?

I'm not sure if that indirect threat of a lost balance is the bigger one in the long run...

 

[tomasjj]

We do have a history of friendship and trust with FREE.
That has to come into this equation too, not just future threats.
And I am not sure we would be the first target for the Siphais of SABER.

FREE will be very strong in the endgame, and we can do with such a friend.

 

[General_W]

The problem with working with Saber (as it has been from the beginning) – is that if they ever manage to get a solid ally, they are likely to be unstoppable.

Who cares if they don't conquer us? If they wipe out BABE and/or GONG – they'll run away with the game.
As much as I like Chamnix and Dutchfire, and agree 100% that they're trustworthy, if we help them too much, we're guaranteed second place in this game.

At this point, in order to win, we need this game to go to a space race between us and FREE. We can win that, due to our better city placement = higher production towns for faster spaceship parts.

With how far we are behind now – I just don't see any other way for us to win. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

By all means, if we can include Saber around the fringes of our tech deal (maybe get them to research Sanitation for us, for example) then I'm good with that. But it's really in our best interest for Saber to be far enough behind the pack that they can't expand off their continent with out great and bloody cost.

Bottom Line: I think we should absolutely stay locked into our alliance with FREE – and start drafting a MAAP III with them in the next 10-15 turns or so.

 

[Paul#42]

We should use one of these save-gaps for a development of the tech division so we are the ones who do the suggestions. It's easier to put a small advantage here and there into a draft then to request it to be changed.

So if anybody could paint some numbers on the IA tech tree so we could work out a balanced division for all possible free tech combinations (just one or two free techs, not SABER).
We definetely want optionals Nationalism and Sanitation included. Espionage could be interesting, too...
I still hope we come along without Amphibious War...

And a list of the wonders of that era. Their benefits, values.
Oh, actually it's only one wonder - Hoover Dam. This will be tough to devide...
ToE is a wonder that benefits both praties, so it's rather a burden...
We migth offer to carry that burden if we may build Hoover, too. (At least we'd have the first shot if we get AT and Electronics with it...)
IIRC US is completely nonsense, right?

For the included peace treaty we might want to raise the payments to 100gpt (or even 200gpt).

We also might want to include some resource trading rules - but those can also be negotiated seperately.

I already included a IA tech tree with some numbers on.

According to the colors I drafted a quite balanced division (35,100 vs 34,800).

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I haven't talked much about this...

but I think that we need SABER to be our ally... because if I were SABER, I would either want to ally with us, or conquer us. As we are commercial and scientific, it's helpful to be our ally - but since we are the weakest civ right now, we are the obvious target for Sipahi.

And, frankly, I don't see how we can survive an attack by a stack of Sipahi with covering muskets/rifles.

At this point, I'd almost say that SABER is a bigger threat than BABE. If we are on bad turns with SABER, we will almost have to block out island. Frankly, we got lucky with the BABE invasion, in that they landed a force without enough covering units. If they had landed 1/2 pikes, 1/2 MW, we would likely be out of the game by now.

 

[Paul#42]

but since we are the weakest civ right now, we are the obvious target for Sipahi.

Are we the weakest civ?
I think FREE and GONG are way less prepared. And GONG even already had their GA.

And, frankly, I don't see how we can survive an attack by a stack of Sipahi with covering muskets/rifles.

Before SABER has Sipahis, we will have most of our land railroaded and a couple of H'watchas around to trigger an emergency GA.
With H'Watchas and Cavs I don't fear a SABER invasion of our own land but rather a SABER invasion of one of the really weak civs.

Frankly, we got lucky with the BABE invasion, in that they landed a force without enough covering units. If they had landed 1/2 pikes, 1/2 MW, we would likely be out of the game by now.

That's right, it was way from being well prepared.

And I agree we want to be SABER's friends, but I also made up my mind to not fuel their war engine.

If we could get them to attack BABE or GONG we should make sure that we (and FREE?) share the continent and have a looong term peace treaty...

I'm inclined to help them towards Magnetism but this is a dangerous path...

 

[tomasjj]

deleted....

 

[donsig]

I agree we should stay friendly with SABER but not too close. If we invest in a decent navy (which I think we will thanks to BABE) then we'll also have a good warning of any invasion force heading for us. I think we need to look at SABER the same way we do BABE - if they conquer another civ they will become more powerful than we want them to be. GONG is now average to us (IIRC) and so it seems they are finally preparing their cultural fortress. FREE is the one sailing along unprotected.

So, all this discussion leads me to conclude we do want a MAAP III treaty with FREE since we need to maintain a good edge over the rest. We also need a defense against all treaty with FREE. Now we need to get our focus back on this game and come up with a concrete proposal for MAAP III. I think someone already posted a possible tech tree split.

 

[Paul#42]

I think someone already posted a possible tech tree split.

I did - five posts above.

 

[General_W]

Ok – it's time we revived this Subcommittee for Industrial age Cooperation and Knowledge.

We haven't heard anything back from FREE about it – no surprise there – so we should probably just push ahead to craft the deal to our liking, then send it along to FREE.

Paul did some great work on that Tech-tree division… so I'm just going to build off of that.

I think it's a mistake to deviate for Nationalism – it seems really unlikely that we're going to need riflemen, esp after we have railroads to shuttle our coastal blocking units around. Also, I think we need to put Amphibious War on the list… Bombers will help us retake Subcommittee Island if we haven't got it back by then, but we'll need Marines to go anywhere else.

Also, Paul's division doesn't take into account the Theory Of Evolution giving us 2 free techs, or the Bonus era techs we'll get. (Which we have no way of knowing what they'll be… but we should try to plan for it somewhat)

At any rate, adjustments needed to be made, so I took a stab at it. Please offer feedback and let's refine this sucker!

---------------

Following is our proposal for the MAAP III:

I. Peace

• FREE and The Council agree to extended the period of guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age.
• The "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" clause of our long-standing peace treaty may not be activated until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.

II. Mutually Assured Advancement Plan - III

• FREE and The Council agree to continue to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
• Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
• Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
• The following MAAP III agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.
• The MAAP III naturally expires after the exchange of our Bonus Modern Era technologies.

The MAAP III

[U]FREE[/U]				[U]The Council[/U]
Steam Power (Bonus)			Medicine (Bonus)
Industrialization (3600) 		Electricity (4200)
Corporation (3000)			Scientific Method (3000)
Steel (4200) 				Atomic Theory (TOE)
Refining (TOE)				Replaceable Parts (4200)
Combustion (1920) 			Electronics (5400)
Flight (5400)				Mass Production (4200) 
Sanitization (2700)			Motorized Transport (4200)
Amphibious War (3600) 

[B]Total 24,420				25,200[/B]
* Exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

III. Balancing the MAAP III and the Industrial Age Wonders

• In the unfortunate event that BOTH team FREE and The Council get the same bonus tech (Both get Medicine, or both get Steam Power): FREE will research Steam Power if it's the missing tech, and The Council will research Medicine if it's the missing tech. This imbalance will be compensated for by the non-researching team paying the researching team 40% of the beaker value in gold asap. This will help the researching team catch up quickly, and not excessively throw off the timing of the MAAP III deal.
• The Council is taking on a 780 beaker heavier load in the MAAP III deal, and will also bear the burden of building the Theory of Evolution (600 shields) for the Alliance. In exchange, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam. Team FREE will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder.

IV. Defense Against All

• If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
• If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the MAAP plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the MAAP needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting
• For purposes of the DAA, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
• Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
• As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
• If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
• Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.

-------------------

Thoughts? Comments? Edits?

There's a ton here, so let's roll up our sleeves and get cracking!

 

[peter grimes]

Hah! You've already done most of the work, G_W!

One thing that is missing, and I expect Free to notice: There is no mention of how the two free ToE techs will be handled. Must they come from our side of the tech path? Can they be optional tech? Must they further our advancement to the Modern Era?

Personally, I think that one of them should be a tech on the maap, the other could be chosen at our discretion. This will get us (and Free) to the Modern Era faster, and give us some flexibility in exchange for those shields.

 

[donsig]

It looks like the plan is to get refining and atomic theory from ToE - those two techs don't have beaker values added above. So we don't count the free ToE techs and just divide up everything else equally. The timing on that could be tricky but it's a good idea in principle.

One thing not addressed is what happens if one of us gets nationalism as a bonus tech. Sure, that team must research either medicine or steam power but they get compensated by gold and they have nationalism to boot. Do we want to make sharing mandatory if one of us gets it?

Beyond this we need to take a micromanager's look at the order these techs would be researched in. We need to time ToE (and Hoover, too?) as well as decide how early we want sanitation.

 

[General_W]

If you'll look close - you'll see that I listed Refining & Atomic Theory as the TOE techs. One on each side. They're the 2 most expensive techs that we can get assuming our pre-build finishes shortly after we get Scientific Method.

Maybe I should make that more obvious for FREE?

X-post with Donsig

Can we get Nationalism as a bonus tech? I thought we could NOT, because it was an optional tech?

 

[peter grimes]

Thanks General_W, I see it now. It wouldn't hurt to spell it out a little more in the following clause:

* The Council is taking on a 780 beaker heavier load in the MAAP III deal, and will also bear the burden of building the Theory of Evolution (600 shields, Refining and Atomic Theory for free) for the Alliance. In exchange, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam. Team FREE will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder.

That's really makes it clear, but I'm not sure it reads well

 

[Paul#42]

I think it's a mistake to deviate for Nationalism – it seems really unlikely that we're going to need riflemen, esp after we have railroads to shuttle our coastal blocking units around.

But Nationalism also allows drafting which is a huge tool to build improvements in weak towns, especially with a couple of cities scratching the ceiling of size twelve.
And it is a good fall back if you get a surprise attack and have to get some units (cannon fodder) in a hurry.
Nationalism is a huge tech also for peacefull builders like us!

Also, I think we need to put Amphibious War on the list… Bombers will help us retake Subcommittee Island if we haven't got it back by then, but we'll need Marines to go anywhere else.

Agree with that. But maybe FREE won't.
But discussion won't hurt more than forgetting.

I. Peace

Agree with that chapter.

II. Mutually Assured Advancement Plan - III

Good as the one before.

The MAAP III

[U]FREE[/U]				[U]The Council[/U]
Steam Power (Bonus)			Medicine (Bonus)
Industrialization (3600) 		Electricity (4200)
Corporation (3000)			Scientific Method (3000)
Steel (4200) 				Atomic Theory (TOE)
Refining ([B]TOE[/B])				Replaceable Parts (4200)
Combustion ([B]1920[/B]) 			Electronics (5400)
Flight (5400)				Mass Production (4200) 
Sanitization (2700)			Motorized Transport (4200)
Amphibious War (3600) 

[B]Total 24,420				25,200[/B]
* [B]Exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value[/B]

This already includes the Nationalism swap.
Combustion cost is probably wrong.
I don't agree with Refining as free TOE tech

III. Balancing the MAAP III and the Industrial Age Wonders

Nice try.
I guess our overload could be less if try a better balance.
If FREE disagrees, we could do an auction. TOE and Hoovers for most beakers imbalance? Who takes more, gets the wonder.

IV. Defense Against All

Fine with me.
Not sure about the gifting of the resources - but tough to find a fair value in advance...

Personally, I think that one of them should be a tech on the maap, the other could be chosen at our discretion. This will get us (and Free) to the Modern Era faster, and give us some flexibility in exchange for those shields.

I see no reason to chose other techs than the most expensive as free techs. That's AT and Electronics. Everything else is also much more difficult to time.
I'd rather scratch those tech(cost)s from the list and devide the tech tree balanced.

One thing not addressed is what happens if one of us gets nationalism as a bonus tech. Sure, that team must research either medicine or steam power but they get compensated by gold and they have nationalism to boot. Do we want to make sharing mandatory if one of us gets it?

Yes, Nationalism should be in this free era tech paragraph. It should be given for free.

Beyond this we need to take a micromanager's look at the order these techs would be researched in. We need to time ToE (and Hoover, too?) as well as decide how early we want sanitation.

We'd want sanitation early. That would raise the value of our prime cities and especially of our science wonders!

 

[General_W]

Now the fun begins in earnest

Nationalism is a huge tech also for peaceful builders like us!

I don't believe I've ever used Nationalism in a peaceful game of Civ3. I'm not saying it's a bad idea… it's just that I have no experience with it. Are we sure we want to be drafting units out of the cities we're trying to grow up to uber-size? I mean, we're just now getting to the stage where our wide city placement will pay off… are we sure this is the time to be drafting?

I'm open to persuasion – it's just a new idea for me.

This [General_W's MAAP III tech proposal] already includes the Nationalism swap.

my proposed tech swap does NOT include Nationalism at this point. So I'm not sure what you're referring to here?

Combustion cost is probably wrong.

Oops! I don't know how I did that. Combustion is 4800 beakers. That does swing the beaker advantage decidedly back into our favor. No matter what, we're obviously going to have to re-work this tech plan.

I don't agree with Refining as free TOE tech. … I see no reason to chose other techs than the most expensive as free techs. That's AT and Electronics. Everything else is also much more difficult to time.

Ok – I couldn't remember if we could choose sequential techs or not. If we can – then yes, I agree – Atomic Theory and Electronics are the best choices.
This again messes up my proposed Tech division.

I'd rather scratch those tech(cost)s from the list and devide the tech tree balanced.

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Are you suggesting we should count the beaker values of the techs we'll get for free from the TOE?
I hope not! I think that'd be a really unfair solution, and I can't imagine FREE agreeing to it.

Yes, Nationalism should be in this free era tech paragraph.

Are you saying you for sure that Nationalism can be obtained as a bonus tech for era advancement?
I want to make sure we're clear before I re-write everything. Having to deal with the ambiguity of a possible Nationalism draw will really suck. Do
Does anyone know for sure?

We'd want sanitation early. That would raise the value of our prime cities and especially of our science wonders!

Ok – when I re-write the tech plan, I'll try to move that up much earlier in the tree.