Maap Iii?

[zyxy]

Looks pretty good. The techs are divided over two independent research paths as much as possible: we do the lower branch, FREE the upper.

It's better to grab Atomic + Electronics with ToE. I would place both on our side, without tech cost - just to keep it clear. Then the tech division could be:

ToE: Atomic, Electronics
Council: Medicine, Electricity, Scientific Method, Rep Parts, Refining, Mass Prod, Motorized Trans: 27600 beakers
Free: Sanitation, Industrialization, Corporation, Steel, Combustion, Flight, Amphibious: 27300 beakers (with the correct cost of Combustion)

(Sanitation and Medicine could also be the other way around.)

This assumes we get Steam (3600) and Nationalism (3600) for free. If we get Medicine and one of Steam or Nationalism, then the Council researches the remaining one, and the higher research load of that is compensated by swapping Refining and Steel. If we both get the same tech, then The Council researches the missing one, and as compensation Sanitation is swapped with Refining. Any remaining differences are small (300 beakers at most, I think) and can be compensated in gold at some reasonable rate - 40% seems fine for such small numbers.

Don't know how to deal with Hoover's. Both teams will want it, probably (although the abundance of rivers makes it slightly less critical than usual). We can try to make a split with the Internet, but I think it will not work. Paul's idea of an auction is fun, but probably doesn't work: if one team takes on a much higher research load, then the other team will just be waiting for them. Of course saving up cash will speed up Modern Age research, but I doubt that it pays off.

 

[Paul#42]

I don't believe I've ever used Nationalism in a peaceful game of Civ3. I'm not saying it's a bad idea… it's just that I have no experience with it. Are we sure we want to be drafting units out of the cities we're trying to grow up to uber-size? I mean, we're just now getting to the stage where our wide city placement will pay off… are we sure this is the time to be drafting?

This drafting might be of short value till we get hospitals - but if I look at the uni build in The Chamber - there are some occasions where the hospital prebuild is not ready when sanitation comes in...

my proposed tech swap does NOT include Nationalism at this point. So I'm not sure what you're referring to here?

* Exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

That's what I'm referring to. Nationalism can be a IA free tech.

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Are you suggesting we should count the beaker values of the techs we'll get for free from the TOE?
I hope not! I think that'd be a really unfair solution, and I can't imagine FREE agreeing to it.

No, the free tech costs should not be "charged" to anyone. Cost = 0.

Are you saying you for sure that Nationalism can be obtained as a bonus tech for era advancement?

Yes, explicitely yes. Optional techs can be free techs. In our last SGotm we even ran into trouble of getting Facism as our free tech (after we traded for Nationalism on The Big Picture...)

Looks pretty good. The techs are divided over two independent research paths as much as possible: we do the lower branch, FREE the upper.

It's better to grab Atomic + Electronics with ToE. I would place both on our side, without tech cost - just to keep it clear. Then the tech division could be:

ToE: Atomic, Electronics
Council: Medicine, Electricity, Scientific Method, Rep Parts, Refining, Mass Prod, Motorized Trans: 27600 beakers
Free: Sanitation, Industrialization, Corporation, Steel, Combustion, Flight, Amphibious: 27300 beakers (with the correct cost of Combustion)

(Sanitation and Medicine could also be the other way around.)

I like this distribution.

This assumes we get Steam (3600) and Nationalism (3600) for free. If we get Medicine and one of Steam or Nationalism, then the Council researches the remaining one, and the higher research load of that is compensated by swapping Refining and Steel. If we both get the same tech, then The Council researches the missing one, and as compensation Sanitation is swapped with Refining. Any remaining differences are small (300 beakers at most, I think) and can be compensated in gold at some reasonable rate - 40% seems fine for such small numbers.

Those ifs make this one complicated. It's better imo, but maybe it's too tough to negotiate. Maybe the General's easier solution is better for a treaty?

Don't know how to deal with Hoover's. Both teams will want it, probably (although the abundance of rivers makes it slightly less critical than usual). We can try to make a split with the Internet, but I think it will not work. Paul's idea of an auction is fun, but probably doesn't work: if one team takes on a much higher research load, then the other team will just be waiting for them. Of course saving up cash will speed up Modern Age research, but I doubt that it pays off.

Yep, that will be the toughest part of it...
To bad there's only one attractive wonder in that era.
And we already got the better share in the Middle Ages...
Maybe (if this becomes part of the discussion) we can score with their (SG-fueled) Smith's?

 

[zyxy]

We could also leave the details to when we actually have the free techs.

I.e., agree on some split, but with the caveat that we can switch stuff around to even out the beaker cost.

I would prefer to avoid massive gold payments, as it is quite tricky to determine the right exchange value.

 

[General_W]

Great solutions zyxy

Only potential problem I see, is that we list Sanitization first on FREE's side… but unless someone draws medicine as their bonus tech, that won't be possible till we finish researching it. Given the ambiguity of what our bonus techs will be, it doesn't really matter, as all this will have to be adjusted to meet reality anyway – but it might be nice to at least be consistent in our assumptions about what the bonus techs are going to be.
Therefore, I'm going to assume we get medicine, and then use your proposal about swapping Refining and Steel as our default proposal. If that makes sense?

I also bumped Steel up a bit on our list, so we don't delay FREE too much in getting combustion and flight. However, that still left the timing as potentially awkward, and left the beaker imbalance 300 in our favor – so I'm suggesting the idea of ALSO swapping Replaceable Parts and Combustion – smoothes out the timing, and gives us the heavier beaker load again… to strengthen our justification for Hoover. If we get stuck just offering gold to compensate FREE for the beaker imbalance, it'll be WAY too easy for them to just say, "forget about the gold, just let us build Hoover"… and we don't want that.

In the end, I had to modify quite a few things to make it all balance. It was quite the nightmare with my excel spreadsheet - but I think the final product is really good. I hope other's agree.

@ Paul – that's helpful in clarifying.
I'll just point out that the Industrial Age bonus tech swap is covered by the MAAP II. The MAAP III proposal I wrote deals with Modern Age bonus techs. hence my confusion.

At any rate, since Nationalism is possible – your point remains. We have to deal with it, and it's now included in every version below.


Here's Version 2 of the MAAP III proposal:

---------------

Following is our proposal for the MAAP III:

I. Peace

• FREE and The Council agree to extended the period of guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age.
• The "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" clause of our long-standing peace treaty may not be activated until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.

II. Mutually Assured Advancement Plan - III

• FREE and The Council agree to continue to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
• Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
• Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
• The following MAAP III agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.
• The MAAP III naturally expires after the exchange of our Bonus Modern Era technologies.

The MAAP III

Team FREE

• Steam Power (Bonus)
• Sanitation (2700)
• Industrialization (3600)
• Corporation (3000)
• Refining (4800)
• Replaceable Parts (4200)
• Flight (5400)
• Amphibious War (3600)

The Council

• Medicine (Bonus)
• Electricity (4200)
• Scientific Method (3000)
• Atomic Theory (TOE)
• Electronics (TOE)
• Nationalism (3600)
• Steel (4200)
• Combustion (4800)
• Mass Production (4200)
• Motorized Transport (4200)

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

FREE Total Beakers = 27,300
Council Total Beakers = 28,200
​

III. Dealing with the Random Bonus Techs
The MAAP III assumes the Alliance will get Medicine and Steam Power as our bonus techs – but in the event that this doesn't happen, here's how it can be settled:

• If the Alliance gets Medicine & Nationalism: The Council will research Steam Power instead of Nationalism. (leaving the balance unchanged)
• If the Alliance gets Steam Power & Nationalism: The Council will research Medicine instead of Nationalism. (reducing The Council's burden to just an extra 300 beakers)
• If the Alliance gets Medicine Twice: The Council will research Steam Power and will swap research duty on Sanitation and Combustion. (reducing The Council's burden to just an extra 300 beakers)
• If the Alliance gets Steam Power Twice: The Council will research Medicine and will swap research duty on Sanitation and Electricity. (leaving the balance unchanged)
• If the Alliance gets Nationalism Twice: The Council will research Steam Power & Medicine and will swap research duty on Sanitation and Electricity. (leaving the balance unchanged)

IV. Balancing the MAAP III and the Industrial Age Wonders
The Council is taking on a 900 beaker heavier load in the MAAP III deal (or possibly a 300 beaker heavier load, depending on the bonus techs), and will also bear the burden of building the Theory of Evolution (600 shields) for the Alliance.
In exchange, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam. Team FREE will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder.


V. Defense Against All

• If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
• If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the MAAP plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the MAAP needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting
• For purposes of the DAA, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
• Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
• As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
• If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
• Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.

-------------------

I think version 2 is a big improvement, but we can probably refine it further! Thoughts?

 

[Paul#42]

Only potential problem I see, is that we list Sanitization first on FREE's side…

typo - it's sanitation. We're scientific after all

@ Paul – that's helpful in clarifying.
I'll just point out that the Industrial Age bonus tech swap is covered by the MAAP II. The MAAP III proposal I wrote deals with Modern Age bonus techs. hence my confusion.

confusion was on my side. Sorry, I should read and understand

The MAAP III

Team FREE

• Steam Power (Bonus)
• Sanitization (2700)

same typo.

III. Dealing with the Random Bonus Techs

IV. Balancing the MAAP III and the Industrial Age Wonders
The Council is taking on a 900 beaker heavier load in the MAAP III deal (or possibly a 300 beaker heavier load, depending on the bonus techs), and will also bear the burden of building the Theory of Evolution (600 shields) for the Alliance.
In exchange, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam. Team FREE will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder.

No matter how we put it - this is really thin. But we got along with it before, let's give it a try. Who makes the plan, has the advantage.

Can we get SGLs for free techs?

V. Defense Against All

• If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.

I'm still torn about that one.
One could make a lot of money with it (or pay...).
I wonder if one could find a way to delay the connection of the second source as long as possible...

I think version 2 is a big improvement, but we can probably refine it further! Thoughts?

Indeed, I think we are getting closer...

 

[donsig]

I'm still torn about that one.
One could make a lot of money with it (or pay...).
I wonder if one could find a way to delay the connection of the second source as long as possible...

FREE has two eleven tile islands and we have none. I think that clause is a good insurance policy for us.

If we both get nationalism for free, then we shouldn't be doing both medicine and steam power since that doesn't leave anything useful for FREE to research!

 

[zyxy]

III. Dealing with the Random Bonus Techs
[...]

• If the Alliance gets Medicine & Nationalism: The Council will research Steam Power instead of Nationalism. (leaving the balance unchanged) Nice. This forces FREE to start on Sanitation .
• If the Alliance gets Steam Power & Nationalism: The Council will research Medicine instead of Nationalism. (reducing The Council's burden to just an extra 300 beakers) Good.
• If the Alliance gets Medicine Twice: The Council will research Steam Power and will swap research duty on Sanitation and Combustion. (reducing The Council's burden to just an extra 300 beakers) Not so good, as it leaves FREE with nothing to do until we finish Steam.
• If the Alliance gets Steam Power Twice: The Council will research Medicine and will swap research duty on Sanitation and Electricity. (leaving the balance unchanged) I would prefer to keep Electricity on our side, and send something else (motorized transport?) to FREE, that seems easier.
• If the Alliance gets Nationalism Twice: The Council will research Steam Power & Medicine and will swap research duty on Sanitation and Electricity. (leaving the balance unchanged) Same problem, as noted by donsig. Again, I would prefer to keep Electricity on our side.

It seems quite difficult to make a plan that deals with all contingencies...

 

[Paul#42]

FREE has two eleven tile islands and we have none. I think that clause is a good insurance policy for us.

Good point!

It seems quite difficult to make a plan that deals with all contingencies...

Good thing someone had a closer look at that. I was too lazy to check beyond spelling...

 

[General_W]

I was too lazy to check beyond spelling...

That's part of the plan! - I'm pretty sure team FREE is even lazier than you, Paul
Thus, our hard work in drafting a plan will make it unlikely FREE will want to tinker with it. Too much effort

@zyxy - I agree with swapping out Motorized Transport rather than Electicity

we shouldn't be doing both medicine and steam power since that doesn't leave anything useful for FREE to research!

ok - I agree, but how do you propose we deal with the tech imbalace then?

 

[donsig]

ok - I agree, but how do you propose we deal with the tech imbalace then?

I don't know how much it costs to research steam power and medicine. Assuming they are about equal and we each research one then FREE is taking a heavier load by 2700 beakers. If we want to regain our 900 beaker excess load then why don't we take amphibious warfare (3600 beakers)? Taking that one restores the proper imbalance and comes along later so it won't interfere with us building ToE in an timely manner.

 

[zyxy]

I think here is something that could work:

If Council and FREE draw different bonus techs, then

• FREE researches Sani + Ind + Corp + Steel + Comb + Flight + Amphib: 2700 + 3600 + 3000 + 4200 + 4800 + 5400 + 3600 = 27300 beakers;
• Council researches [remaining start tech] + Electr + SciMeth + Refining + RepP + MassProd + MotT: [3000 or 3600] + 4200 + 3000 + 4800 + 4200 + 4200 + 4200 = 27600 or 28200, i.e., 300 or 900 beakers more.

If Council and FREE draw the same bonus tech, then

• FREE researches [Steam if available; otherwise Nationalism] + Ind + Corp + Refining + Comb + Flight + MotT: 3600 + 3600 + 3000 + 4800 + 4800 + 5400 + 4200 = 29400 beakers;
• Council researches [Medicine if available; otherwise Nationalism] + Electr + SciMeth + Sani + Steel + RepP + MassP + Amphib: [3000 or 3600] + 4200 + 3000 + 2700 + 4200 + 4200 + 4200 + 3600 = 29100 or 29700 beakers, i.e. 300 more or 300 less.

I.e., the lists are the same as before, except that Sanitation, Steel and Amphib are now on our side, and Refining and MotT are now on FREE's side.

This is about as close as I can get the research loads with as little need for coordination between the teams as possible. Also, this gives each team 2 of the 4 final techs (Flight, MassP, MotT and Amphib).

 

[AutomatedTeller]

On Hoovers - it may make sense to allow Hoover's to whatever team has the higher research burden and builds ToE (since the 600 shields for ToE will help both sides). Hoover is 800 shields, so only gives benefit if we have 4 or more factories anyway (we could just build 3 hydro plants from hand, or 5 coal plants as well)

Given the island nature, it might make sense to let Hoover go.

Other things we could do is agree that the team that is allowed to build Hoovers will supply the team any IA resource that the other team lacks (oil/rubber) that they have more than 1 supply of. So, essentially, we will trade hoover for a free option on oil and rubber, not having to build ToE, and a slightly lighter tech load.

How does trading work in multi-player? We can start and cancel trades all we want, right? We could, conceivably, even get oil if they have 1 source by getting it for a turn, starting a bunch of oil-needing builds, then cancelling the deal.

 

[zyxy]

I think we need to get this ball rolling. If we don't agree amongst ourselves yet, we can at least send a letter to FREE asking them whether they will be interested in a MAAP III.

 

[General_W]

Sorry all – we've had a bunch of family visiting for the holidays (they're still in town, in fact) – so I've had very limited time lately.

I think we're very close to having this be done, so I propose we put the finishing touches on it, and send it off to FREE.

I like zyxy's proposed changes for the most part, but I'm just a little concerned that it allows for the possibility of us having a lighter research load, and therefore weakening our argument for Hoover.
I still think Hoover remains a key part of our space-race victory strategy.

To try to account for this, I added this clause to the MAAP:

Under the single scenario where The Council ends up with the 300 beaker lighter tech load, The Council will pay 40% of the beaker difference to Team FREE.

Here's Version 3 of the MAAP III proposal:

---------------

Dear FREE Allies,

After many hours of toil, (and eventually being locked in a room with no food till they could complete their task) the Subcommittee for Industrialage Cooperation and Knowledge finally finished a draft version of a MAAP III deal.

We're eagerly looking forward to getting your feedback, input, and any alterations so that we can sign a formal version with you!

----------------------------------
Draft: MAAP III:

I. Peace

• FREE and The Council agree to extended the period of guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age.
• The "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" clause of our long-standing peace treaty may not be activated until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.

II. Mutually Assured Advancement Plan - III

• FREE and The Council agree to continue to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
• Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
• Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
• The following MAAP III agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.
• The MAAP III naturally expires after the exchange of our Bonus Modern Era technologies.

The MAAP III

Team FREE

• Steam Power (Bonus)
• Sanitation (2700)
• Industrialization (3600)
• Corporation (3000)
• Refining (4800)
• Replaceable Parts (4200)
• Flight (5400)
• Amphibious War (3600)

The Council

• Medicine (Bonus)
• Electricity (4200)
• Scientific Method (3000)
• Atomic Theory (TOE)
• Electronics (TOE)
• Nationalism (3600)
• Steel (4200)
• Combustion (4800)
• Mass Production (4200)
• Motorized Transport (4200)

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

FREE Total Beakers = 27,300
Council Total Beakers = 28,200
​

III. Dealing with the Random Bonus Techs

The MAAP III assumes the Alliance will get Medicine and Steam Power as our bonus techs – but in the event that this doesn't happen, here's how it can be settled:

If FREE and The Council draw different bonus techs:

• FREE researches Sani (2700) + Ind (3600) + Corp (3000) + Steel (4200) + Comb (4800) + Flight (5400) + Amphib (3600) = 27,300 beakers.
• Council researches [remaining start tech] (3000 or 3600) + Electr (4200) + SciMeth (3000) + Refining (4800) + RepP (4200) + MassProd (4200) + MotT (4200) = 27,600 or 28,200. [i.e., 300 or 900 beakers more]

If FREE and The Council draw the same bonus techs:

• FREE researches [Steam if available; otherwise Nationalism] (3600) + Ind (3600) + Corp (3000) + Refining (4800) + Comb (4800) + Flight (5400) + MotT (4200) = 29,400 beakers.
• Council researches [Medicine if available; otherwise Nationalism] (3000 or 3600) + Electr (4200) + SciMeth (3000) + Sani (3000) + Steel (4200) + RepP (4200) + MassP (4200) + Amphib (3600) = 29,100 or 29,700 beakers. [i.e. 300 more or 300 less]

IV. Balancing the MAAP III and the Industrial Age Wonders

• The Council is taking on a 900 beaker heavier load in the MAAP III deal (or possibly a 300 beaker heavier load, depending on the bonus techs), and will also bear the burden of building the Theory of Evolution (600 shields) for the Alliance.
• In exchange, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam. Team FREE will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder.
• Under the single scenario where The Council ends up with the 300 beaker lighter tech load, The Council will pay 40% of the beaker difference to Team FREE.

V. Defense Against All

• If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
• If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the MAAP plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the MAAP needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting
• For purposes of the DAA, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
• Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
• As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
• If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
• Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.

END DRAFT
-------------------------

Also, there's no real reason to hold off on a luxury deal before we finalize the MAAP III. Are you interested in a swap of our Dyes for your Spices? We'll have Magnetism shortly and will be able to propose trades!

Also – when can we expect Theory of Gravity and Banking from you? (Advancing to the Industrial Age! Whoo hoo!)

All the Best,
Your Allies,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


---------------------------------------------



Thoughts? Final edits?

 

[peter grimes]

Thanks for doing all these revisions, GW - I know it's a lot of work.

I think we have something that's fine to send off

 

[donsig]

and also add my thanks General.

 

[zyxy]

Indeed, thanks for the hard work! :thankyou: It's looking good indeed.

On Hoovers - it may make sense to allow Hoover's to whatever team has the higher research burden and builds ToE (since the 600 shields for ToE will help both sides). Hoover is 800 shields, so only gives benefit if we have 4 or more factories anyway (we could just build 3 hydro plants from hand, or 5 coal plants as well)

I was wondering too, so I made a little calculation to see whether Hoover is worth it.

Under MAAP 3, we are investing 600+800 = 1400 shields in Hoover, plus

• 0 beakers, if the bonus techs are (Steam and Steam) or (Nat and Nat); probability: 2/9;
• 300 beakers, if the bonus techs are (Steam and Nat) or (Med and Med); prob: 3/9, or
• 900 beakers, if the bonus techs are (Steam and Med) or (Nat and Med); prob: 4/9

This is 500 beakers on average. (I counted the 40% payment in the first case as budget neutral.) Let's say we value 500 beakers as 400 gold, because we have more libs/unis than markets/banks.

Needed production: The 10 spaceship parts cost 3200 shields together.
Available production: With railroads and somewhat more pop here and there, we roughly get these shield totals [raw / with factory + hydro plant or Hoover's / with factory + nuclear plant]:

• The Chamber: 40 / 80 / 100
• The Treasury: 40 / 80 / 100
• The Silo: 30 / 60 / 75
• The Admiralty: 30 / 60 / 75

Each of these towns has fresh water in its radius (lakes count, right?), so can build either plant. We don't really have other strong production towns, although The Gulag might do reasonably well if we grow it larger. With these 4 towns, and assuming nuclear plants, we have a total production of 300 spt, which means we need 11 turns to produce the spaceship. Building 4 nuclear plants (240 shields each) and funding them for 11 turns (3 gpt each) costs 960 shields and 132 gold. Significantly less than Hoover's.

Of course the benefit from Hoover's is more than additional production during the space race. And possibly we'll want to build nuclear plants in our best towns anyway. But still, it shows that FREE may not be getting a bad deal at all. And nuclear plants/hydro plant are secure - Hoover's is not.

So I think the sole remaining question is whether we really want to pay 1400 shields and 400 gold (on average) for Hoover's.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

To build hoovers or a hydro plant, you need a river (if you have built hoovers, every town gets a hydro plant whether there is fresh water or not)

To build a nuke plant, either a lake or a river counts.

I had forgotten about upkeep for non-hoover's plants - that's something we should think about, especially as it is very unlikely that we will be allowed to build a spaceship peacefully - our plants are likely to build a lot of military.

 

[General_W]

A.T. hit the nail on the head in my book.

We're going to want the production boost in all our towns, and rivers far are less common than freshwater. The gpt upkeep savings are nothing to sneeze at either (3gpt per building!) and with an effective pre-build, we'll enjoy the Hoover benefit for well over half the Industrial age, as well as the entire Modern age.

If FREE agrees to this, it'd be a major coup for us.


(And you're all welcome – I'm just glad I've found a way to contribute to this great team )

Current Council Vote: MAAP III proposal

(From recent posters in this thread)

Send it off: 3 (Peter Grimes, Donsig, General_W)
Wait: 1 (zyxy)
Unclear: 2 (AutomatedTeller, Paul#42)
​

More votes? It'd be awesome to get something sent off today or tomorrow.

Spoiler :

Dear FREE Allies,

After many hours of toil, (and eventually being locked in a room with no food till they could complete their task) the Subcommittee for Industrialage Cooperation and Knowledge finally finished a draft version of a MAAP III deal.

We're eagerly looking forward to getting your feedback, input, and any alterations so that we can sign a formal version with you!

----------------------------------
Draft: MAAP III:

I. Peace

• FREE and The Council agree to extended the period of guaranteed peace with each other through the Industrial Age.
• The "15 turns notice of intent to cancel" clause of our long-standing peace treaty may not be activated until after the swap of our Modern Era Bonus techs.

II. Mutually Assured Advancement Plan - III

• FREE and The Council agree to continue to cooperate to get into the Modern Era as rapidly as possible.
• Both teams agree to not execute a "slow burn" in getting technologies slower in favor of stockpiling gold, unless explicitly approved by the other team.
• Both teams pledge to do their level best to not undermine the alliance in rapid advancement of knowledge.
• The following MAAP III agreement may only be modified by joint agreement of the teams.
• The MAAP III naturally expires after the exchange of our Bonus Modern Era technologies.

The MAAP III

Team FREE

• Steam Power (Bonus)
• Sanitation (2700)
• Industrialization (3600)
• Corporation (3000)
• Refining (4800)
• Replaceable Parts (4200)
• Flight (5400)
• Amphibious War (3600)

The Council

• Medicine (Bonus)
• Electricity (4200)
• Scientific Method (3000)
• Atomic Theory (TOE)
• Electronics (TOE)
• Nationalism (3600)
• Steel (4200)
• Combustion (4800)
• Mass Production (4200)
• Motorized Transport (4200)

* Then exchange Modern Age bonus techs without regard to beaker value

FREE Total Beakers = 27,300
Council Total Beakers = 28,200
​

III. Dealing with the Random Bonus Techs

The MAAP III assumes the Alliance will get Medicine and Steam Power as our bonus techs – but in the event that this doesn't happen, here's how it can be settled:

If FREE and The Council draw different bonus techs:

• FREE researches Sani (2700) + Ind (3600) + Corp (3000) + Steel (4200) + Comb (4800) + Flight (5400) + Amphib (3600) = 27,300 beakers.
• Council researches [remaining start tech] (3000 or 3600) + Electr (4200) + SciMeth (3000) + Refining (4800) + RepP (4200) + MassProd (4200) + MotT (4200) = 27,600 or 28,200. [i.e., 300 or 900 beakers more]

If FREE and The Council draw the same bonus techs:

• FREE researches [Steam if available; otherwise Nationalism] (3600) + Ind (3600) + Corp (3000) + Refining (4800) + Comb (4800) + Flight (5400) + MotT (4200) = 29,400 beakers.
• Council researches [Medicine if available; otherwise Nationalism] (3000 or 3600) + Electr (4200) + SciMeth (3000) + Sani (3000) + Steel (4200) + RepP (4200) + MassP (4200) + Amphib (3600) = 29,100 or 29,700 beakers. [i.e. 300 more or 300 less]

IV. Balancing the MAAP III and the Industrial Age Wonders

• The Council is taking on a 900 beaker heavier load in the MAAP III deal (or possibly a 300 beaker heavier load, depending on the bonus techs), and will also bear the burden of building the Theory of Evolution (600 shields) for the Alliance.
• In exchange, The Council will also be granted the right to build the Hoover Dam. Team FREE will have the right to build the Universal Suffrage wonder.
• Under the single scenario where The Council ends up with the 300 beaker lighter tech load, The Council will pay 40% of the beaker difference to Team FREE.

V. Defense Against All

• If either team is invaded during the Industrial Age, the team that hasn’t been invaded will provide 100 gold per turn to the besieged team for the duration of the invasion, or up to 1500 gold total (15 turns), whichever is less.
• If either team is invaded, both teams will be relieved of their obligations to continue research at top speed on the MAAP plan, in recognition of the enhanced need for gold. When the invasion is over, normal obligations will resume – but both teams pledge to be generous towards the other if the MAAP needs to be adjusted after the invasion due to setbacks from the fighting
• For purposes of the DAA, an “invasion” will be defined as any enemy units on shore, or waiting immediately off-shore.
• Each team will immediately notify the other of any sightings of foreign ships with their (approximate) locations and heading. Each team will also notify the other if any foreign team begins making aggressive demands or sends other signals as a possible prelude to war.
• As a defense against other's catching us in our technology lead, both teams agree to not trade, sell, or otherwise transfer any technology to foreign teams without the express permission of the other ally.
• If either team lacks a strategic resource, and the other team has a surplus of that resource – the team with the extra supply will gift it to the lacking team.
• Both teams agree to give the other first preference in any luxury resource trades.

END DRAFT
-------------------------

Also, there's no real reason to hold off on a luxury deal before we finalize the MAAP III. Are you interested in a swap of our Dyes for your Spices? We'll have Magnetism shortly and will be able to propose trades!

Also – when can we expect Theory of Gravity and Banking from you? (Advancing to the Industrial Age! Whoo hoo!)

All the Best,
Your Allies,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think it's fine. Something that hasnt' been talked about, though, is the amount in the DAA - 100 gpt? That's something like 5 times as much as in DAB I and II.

I'm ok with it, but I'm not sure how we came up with 100 as opposed to 20 or 40 or so.