Macedonia - A Naming Issue (split off from Altered Maps XVI)

Silurian

Silurian

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Ferocitus said:
I think they need to make "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" a little
larger, or maybe shorten the name a bit.
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It looks like its going to be called Northern Macedonia.

from ABC


Greece's Alexis Tsipras and Macedonia's Zoran Zaev made the announcements shortly after speaking by phone.

The new name — which in Macedonian is Severna Makedonija — will be used both domestically and internationally, while Macedonia will also amend its constitution as part of the deal.
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...ame-to-republic-of-northern-macedonia/9862810
 
Silurian said:
It looks like its going to be called Northern Macedonia.

from ABC




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-...ame-to-republic-of-northern-macedonia/9862810
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To put it briefly: it isn't likely to pass the various stages. Eg even if it passes the popular referendum in Fyromania, it won't pass the parliament vote here. By the way, Tripras' party is polling at 12%. Time for it and him to F off. Not time for him to play ruler and impose deals 95% of the public is against.

(ps: i don't mind so much the 'northern Macedonia', though slavic macedonia would be better, and western Bulgaria would be correct, but i do mind the "macedonian" as name of the ethnicity).
 
"Slavic Macedonia"? One doesn't normally name countries after its citizens' ethnicities, otherwise we might have (Orthodox) Turko-Graecia and (Muslim) Graeco-Turka. :mischief:
 
Arakhor said:
"Slavic Macedonia"? One doesn't normally name countries after its citizens' ethnicities, otherwise we might have (Orthodox) Turko-Graecia and (Muslim) Graeco-Turkey. :mischief:
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I think the main obstacle to "Slavic Macedonia" was the 30+% albanian minority, tbh.

Re "macedonian" as name of the ethnicity; it creates huge issues. Eg i too am macedonian, and obviously not slavic. So are roughly 2 million greek people.
 
How about North Alexandria? :p
 
Cue Tolni to tell us why comparison to the Boulgars is a terrible idea!
 
Kyriakos said:
I think the main obstacle to "Slavic Macedonia" was the 30+% albanian minority, tbh.

Re "macedonian" as name of the ethnicity; it creates huge issues. Eg i too am macedonian, and obviously not slavic. So are roughly 2 million greek people.
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Well it all depends on what a Macedonian is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popul...ce_and_Turkey#/media/File:DeportaLausanne.jpg

The border between Macedonia and Greece is more or less the stop lines of the Serb and Greek armies in 1913.

The people who were living in the area called Macedonia that was split by the moved border called themselves Macedonian.
VMRO -Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization was founded in 1893 in Salonika/ Thessalonike.

After the war of 1919-22 between Greece and Turkey there was a population exchange.
Much of the non Greek population was removed from the Greek province of Macedonia and replaced with Greeks from Turkey
 
Silurian said:
Well it all depends on what a Macedonian is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popul...ce_and_Turkey#/media/File:DeportaLausanne.jpg

The border between Macedonia and Greece is more or less the stop lines of the Serb and Greek armies in 1913.

The people who were living in the area called Macedonia that was split by the moved border called themselves Macedonian.
VMRO -Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization was founded in 1893 in Salonika/ Thessalonike.

After the war of 1919-22 between Greece and Turkey there was a population exchange.
Much of the non Greek population was removed from the Greek province of Macedonia and replaced with Greeks from Turkey
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Of course. Yet this doesn't change the fact that the issue isn't about ottoman-era province of Macedonia (which literally no one cares about). The term is related to the ancient era, or at least the actual monuments/places of ancient Macedonia, which happen to be all in Greece anyway.
Inventing a history/birthplace isn't rare; all nations do it. But the degree is really special in the case of Fyrom. Mostly because they are bulgarian, and were controlled by Serbia and then Tito's Yugoslavia, which wanted that CB shield on Thessalonike too :p Tldr: while national myths are common everywhere, Fyrom is several degrees of magnitude higher re baseless national myth-making.

Tied altered map:
dimotiko_sxoleio_skopion.jpg
 
Kyriakos said:
Of course. Yet this doesn't change the fact that the issue isn't about ottoman-era province of Macedonia (which literally no one cares about). The term is related to the ancient era, or at least the actual monuments/places of ancient Macedonia, which happen to be all in Greece anyway.
Inventing a history/birthplace isn't rare; all nations do it. But the degree is really special in the case of Fyrom. Mostly because they are bulgarian, and were controlled by Serbia and then Tito's Yugoslavia, which wanted that CB shield on Thessalonike too :p Tldr: while national myths are common everywhere, Fyrom is several degrees of magnitude higher re baseless national myth-making.

Tied altered map:
dimotiko_sxoleio_skopion.jpg
Click to expand...

The fact is it is about an area called Macedonia that was part of the Ottoman Empire.
It is very common for people to name themselves after the place they live in.
Obviously the Macedonia's do care about care about being able to call themselves after the place they were born in.

There are ancient Macedonia sites within what is now Macedonia for example Heraclea Lyncestis near Bitola.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclea_Lyncestis

My wife's father was born 15km west of that ancient Macedonia site and was a middle ranking policeman in Skopje.
One of her uncles commanded a tank brigade in the JNA
Their father lived under Ottoman rule.
Other people who actually lived under the Ottoman's would have been in positions of power in the 50s and 60s.
It would seem highly likely that Macedonian Communists had some influence over Tito "That was part of Monastir before the Greeks invaded..."

Regarding links with ancient Macedonia it always amazes me that the Greeks claim that Macedonia's have no links with the ancient Macedonia's because of the invasions of the Goths, Huns, Turks etc but these same invasions in no way effected the link between the modern Greeks and ancient Greece. Inventing a history/birthplace isn't rare!

I see you have posted a photo from Greek website.
I am sure you could also find similar Greater Greece photo's on Albanian, Serb, Bulgarian and Turkish sites.
 
Silurian said:
The fact is it is about an area called Macedonia that was part of the Ottoman Empire.
It is very common for people to name themselves after the place they live in.
Obviously the Macedonia's do care about care about being able to call themselves after the place they were born in.

There are ancient Macedonia sites within what is now Macedonia for example Heraclea Lyncestis near Bitola.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclea_Lyncestis

My wife's father was born 15km west of that ancient Macedonia site and was a middle ranking policeman in Skopje.
One of her uncles commanded a tank brigade in the JNA
Their father lived under Ottoman rule.
Other people who actually lived under the Ottoman's would have been in positions of power in the 50s and 60s.
It would seem highly likely that Macedonian Communists had some influence over Tito "That was part of Monastir before the Greeks invaded..."

Regarding links with ancient Macedonia it always amazes me that the Greeks claim that Macedonia's have no links with the ancient Macedonia's because of the invasions of the Goths, Huns, Turks etc but these same invasions in no way effected the link between the modern Greeks and ancient Greece. Inventing a history/birthplace isn't rare!

I see you have posted a photo from Greek website.
I am sure you could also find similar Greater Greece photo's on Albanian, Serb, Bulgarian and Turkish sites.
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Lol, ok. I think it is no use "debating" this in your style, or with you, fyromian :p

images


(pic showing a traditional "ottoman" :lol: mac heritage parade in the capital of Fyrom)

Fact is that national myth is several levels of magnitude more made-up in your ex homeland, than even in the rest of the countries of this planet.
 
warpus said:
Just go with "North Macedonia" and rename Greece to "South Macedonia"
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Even in roman times the region here was called Primary Macedonia, with the backwater being Secunda. In byzantine times the province of Macedonia was in current Thrace... (local region was called after Thessalonike).
Again, though: no one cares. The only mac people are likely to have heard of is the ancient mac. The other is something like (austrian) Tyrol: only people from there would care if some italian state formed and called itself Tyrolia or whatever.

(ps: i am sure this is off-topic :jesus: )
 
warpus said:
Just go with "North Macedonia" and rename Greece to "South Macedonia"
Click to expand...

I am not aware of any desire from Macedonia for the Greek province of Macedonia to be renamed.
It obviously also has links to ancient Macedonia.

.
Kyriakos said:
Even in roman times the region here was called Primary Macedonia, with the backwater being Secunda. In byzantine times the province of Macedonia was in current Thrace... (local region was called after Thessalonike).
Again, though: no one cares. The only mac people are likely to have heard of is the ancient mac. The other is something like (austrian) Tyrol: only people from there would care if some italian state formed and called itself Tyrolia or whatever.

(ps: i am sure this is off-topic :jesus: )
Click to expand...

The capital of the Roman province of Secuda Macedonia was sited at Stobi which is in Macedonia (northern) and the area was invaded by the ancient Macedonia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stobi

Macedonia is still a backwater but that does not remove its links with the past in fact it is likely to increase them.

The borders of regions change with time, look at Poland, at one time it was in North Africa.
 
West Macedonia Best Macedonia !

I dont see why Greece is so upset, Alexander was not considered a true Greek, then he conquered Persia and the Greek complained about not making Alexander a Greek.
 
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Zkribbler said:
May I suggest "Zkribtopia" :hatsoff:
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I thought that was some nice little part of the Philippines.:)

FriendlyFire said:
West Macedonia Best Macedonia !

I dont see why Greece is so upset, Alexander was not considered a true Greek, then he conquered Persia and the Greek complained about not making Alexander a Greek.
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West Macedonia is in Greece so the name is already taken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Macedonia

Greece claimed what is now southern Macedonia but the Serbs advanced further south than they hoped in 1913.
The Serbs claimed parts of what is now Greece.
The Bulgarians claimed all of Macedonia and parts of what is now Greece.

The Macedonians and too the west the Albanians wanted too get rid of the Ottomans and some who thought about the replacement wanted their own countries.

I am sure that some Greeks still think they should have got more of the pie.

Some Macedonian units fought the Germans in Macedonian Greece during WW2 and they had some involvement in the Greek civil war.
Some Macedonians moved north during this fighting leaving property behind.
This makes some Greeks nervous.

The Socialist Republic of Macedonia was set up in 1945.
Greece reformed the names of its regions in 1987 and started calling the administrative areas Macedonia.
 
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