Macron's manifesto for Empire

Anyone who prefer decency to a capitalist order will want to do away with nations and boarders that leak capital and traps people; and they certainly do not want to trade them in for empires. The fight for decency must be international and world-encompassing. Maybe it’s time for a new form of the international?

It's obvious that I agree with this sentiment, although for the time being I think it would be better to leave well enough alone. Play defense of what international institutions we have and try to hold the fort for now. This xenophobia that has taken Europe and the US will pass in time, I honestly feel like its a baby boomer phenomena. I know others think its some deeply ingrained human trait, but the last 70 years of global consolidation are pretty strong evidence against that.
 
It is funny that in my insistence on democracy I find myself in the role of the traditional liberal. But it had before also been that of the socialists, universal suffrage. I'm not claiming that it must always take the form of parliamentarian representative democracy, but that is the one available now. Even if it did not took that particular form, it would have to take some form. So you who would dispense with the nation, what do you claim would work in your nation-less alternative world? Or would you do away with any kind of democracy whatsoever?
 
When I say do away with nations or empires I mean as the final level of authority. I’m all for representative democracy on national level, regional level, and municipal level, and tenant level. I’m also not against democracy on an EU level for issues that belong there. But unless there is also a functioning global level I think all these sublevels are just punching in the air or competing in a race to the bottom on issues of climate, security, capital, migration, human rights etc. Imo the UN is a start but needs to reform in a way that weakens Security Council members and strengthen actual worldwide democracy for all the nations and regions that wish to adhere to such order. Not an easy proposition but ultimatly needed.
 
The new CDU leader and likely successor of Angela Merkel has taken position in an oped for Welt Am Sontag on the future EU and towards the recent Renaissance letter of Macron:

Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, the leader of Germany’s Christian Democrats, on Sunday issued a response to French President Emmanuel Macron's calls for a stronger Europe, taking issue with key points of his vision and setting out her party's agenda for European reform.
For Europe to remain strong and united, she argued, “the work of the European institutions cannot claim any moral superiority over the collaborative effort of national governments."

"A new Europe cannot be founded without the nation states: They provide democratic legitimacy and identification," Kramp-Karrenbauer wrote. "It is the member states that formulate and bring together their own interests at the European level. This is what gives Europeans their international weight.”


Not more institutions, not more EU state power, as Macron is aiming at.
https://www.politico.eu/article/germanys-cdu-chief-sets-out-european-vision-responds-to-macron/
 
It is a political community whose members agree/consent on a common system of government. It is neither ethnic nor racial, not linguistic or "cultural". It tends to be culturally specific because history, but it is not necessarily so. And also because history it cannot be created overnight, or in a mere few years, of from people with à priori opposite goals.

As @inthesomeday notes this rather drastically changes the argument and it is certainly not the sort of thing that Hehehe has been arguing for. Under this definition of nation I mostly agree with what you've said in this thread.
 
I started to read a biography of John Major once.

I got to the point where he was saying it was imperative that the UK proceed in Europe, our role to arbitrate disputes between France and Germany.

My immediate thought was why bother? My second thought was that France and Germany managed quite well in the EEC 1956 to 1972 without the UK.
And my current opinion is that it was all self pretentious establishment nonsense similar to the UK must take the Lead and be at the Heart of Europe delusion.
 
It is funny that in my insistence on democracy I find myself in the role of the traditional liberal. But it had before also been that of the socialists, universal suffrage. I'm not claiming that it must always take the form of parliamentarian representative democracy, but that is the one available now. Even if it did not took that particular form, it would have to take some form. So you who would dispense with the nation, what do you claim would work in your nation-less alternative world? Or would you do away with any kind of democracy whatsoever?

from the US PoV.

municipality > county > regional? (this is very spongy in uses/terms) >states > fed > North American Union > UN

Something like that, with yes representation of some sort every step of the way, but largely arbitration and rule setting in the supra national positions. Honestly we are pretty much there, but the international part needs to be stronger and more mindful of the manipulation it has become subject to in the past 50 years. It also needs to be more responsive which seems to me to be the biggest issue in the EU. That and good old fashion xenophobia. I mean in a polity of some 400 million people how many refugees did you guys actually take in?

Looks like about 5 million. I'm not convinced that is a true crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis#Statistics
 
That is some good news, the germans not even pretending to go along with him.

yes

This Macron letter is a bit like his (much, much longer) Sorbonne speech on Europe in 2017 just after he became President.
And who remembers or cares to remember that one ?
Who will remember Macron when his 5 year term is over ?

Macron attached to this Renaissance speech a website where every citizen in Europe is invited to join up and show support for his Renaissance.
I have very much the impression that Macron, seeking an EU political party to join with his En Marche, and who is flirting now some time with the EU political party ALDE (the liberals, from social-, to conservative-, to neo-), wants En Marche to be the leading party in the ALDE. Straight for the ALDE banner with bottom up support from members of other ALDE parties in Europe supporting in those parties his Renaissance, following his banner.
Macron's first attempts through talks with ALDE got him nowhere in terms of influence (for his fluffy and centralised institutions visions) and he has the alternative to set up his own EU party with En Marche as core and then needing others to follow. ALDE is polite to Macron's visions: meaning just join us as team member (we need to become a bigger party) but do not expect we join your ideas on more institutions etc.

The only ALDE senior I know who is supporting Macron's vision is Guy Verhofstadt (former PM Belgium) who is a determined federalist. But others in ALDE want to diminish the role of Verhofstadt in ALDE.
Verhofstadt made on March 2 a speech in Capetown in South Africa on the EU-Africa relation:
"Let’s create a single Euro-African economic area. It would have enormous potential, that today remains untapped: 1.5 billion consumers, 20 trillion in value, able to rival China!" said @guyverhofstadt opening our #ALDEPAC Conference in Cape Town.

I also have the impression that Macron acts now because the "anti-more EU institutions" member UK is out of the equation, and he is testing out how far he can get.
And as side note that there is a clear commercial competition going on between China, France and the UK on strenghtening bonds with African countries.
And with the UK out of the EU, that offers opportunities for Macron-France in Africa with no UK anylonger in their EU back.
 
yes
The only ALDE senior I know who is supporting Macron's vision is Guy Verhofstadt (former PM Belgium) who is a determined federalist. But others in ALDE want to diminish the role of Verhofstadt in ALDE.
Verhofstadt made on March 2 a speech in Capetown in South Africa on the EU-Africa relation:
"Let’s create a single Euro-African economic area. It would have enormous potential, that today remains untapped: 1.5 billion consumers, 20 trillion in value, able to rival China!" said @guyverhofstadt opening our #ALDEPAC Conference in Cape Town.

Yes, but this time it would be the Africans who will be keen on the fundamental EU principle of Freedom of Movement (de facto unlimited migration) and the EU saying no.


I also have the impression that Macron acts now because the "anti-more EU institutions" member UK is out of the equation, and he is testing out how far he can get.
And as side note that there is a clear commercial competition going on between China, France and the UK on strenghtening bonds with African countries.
And with the UK out of the EU, that offers opportunities for Macron-France in Africa with no UK anylonger in their EU back.

UK government would be well advised not to pretend to compete with China, EU, India, USA for influence in Africa.
Best to simply let any specialist UK companies pick up any niche business without any grandiose posturing.
 
Yes, but this time it would be the Africans who will be keen on the fundamental EU principle of Freedom of Movement (de facto unlimited migration) and the EU saying no.

As said in another post:
that Freedom of Movement is for intra-EU migration.
For the freedom of people to have their higher education, their job, their live partner, their retirement, where they want.
And for the money:
Get unemployed people to move to economic clusters having vacancies parallel to developing clusters in economical empty areas where it is do-able.
Many countries have a structural shortage of employees hindering growth although many of them have still big productivity potential left, some countries have a structural deficit of real economy, have substantial productivity potential left and have many unemployed.

UK government would be well advised not to pretend to compete with China, EU, India, USA for influence in Africa.
Best to simply let any specialist UK companies pick up any niche business without any grandiose posturing.

yes
back to basics
I think not even the EU should behave otherwise than what you suggest for the UK.
What Macron proposes is typical colonial empire thinking. Of the kind where public money (and public blood) is used to keep up the empire and private companies get the benefits.
Nothing much else than a redistribution of money within the imperial country from the public tax to the shareholders, with that colony as in-between medium.
There was a reason that the Dutch Republic did not supply soldiers, marines, warships etc to the VOC, to the trade with the East. All the military cost needed for the VOC trade were in the expenses of the VOC.
There was a Chinese wall between public expenses for defense of the Dutch Republic and military expenditures for the VOC trading company.
When the Dutch Republic hired warships of the VOC for one of the many sea wars with the UK, the Dutch Republic paid the VOC the cost for ships sunk and damaged, and operational cost. Accounting on that was done to the last cent.
 
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My reason to fear these aims now publicly admitted by Macron is that the whole idea of having an EU for size, the federal idea that took over since Maastricht, is to be big enough to play superpower, is only necessary for Empire. If one happens, the other will happen I believe.
 
My reason to fear these aims now publicly admitted by Macron is that the whole idea of having an EU for size, the federal idea that took over since Maastricht, is to be big enough to play superpower, is only necessary for Empire. If one happens, the other will happen I believe.

I think that the amount of federal ideas have never been that big.
At least not from the people bearing responsibilities as PM of most of the member countries.
The general attitude is to grow together, in both meanings of growing together. Whatever institutions needed... to follow the demand or the bare necessities from external changes.

Every time someone comes with federal ideas... not we as people... but politicians in positions of some or more power and the front persons of certain interests and sets of convictions abstrahised to party levels..
everytime someone on the European stage comes with more pan-European ideas... I asked myself why ? What is at stake.. what could be gained ? And mostly that gives an answer not that much related with the interests of all European people, and... and most members !

And this is not so much from the civil servants in Brussels. Ofc they are somewhat biased to more EU, as every person in a central administration has that bias to some degree. Whether in the Capital of a country or the HQ staff a a big company. It's the normal centralising gravity bias. You always have to actively repress that or face avoidable waste.
Every employee in the central admin can tell stories where regional admins were not enough coordinated by them. Every employee in a regional admin can tell stories on the central admin screwing something up.
The more centralised a country admin is, the more in the central Capital (often more the case in former empires), the more such an admin encourages imperial thinking in politicians.
And I guess... the more corruption there is in the culture, the more a central admin will prefer that corruption to happen at central levels instead of regional levels (and probably in informal cultures reducing the total amount of corruption at the same time).

If you ask for example McKinsey to run an analysis on one of your ministrial departments in that respect, or on a multinational admin or support, you get your standard and expensive report back incl a lot of benchmarking on relevant aspects. The more expensive, the more you get.
Measuring cost and added values when expressable in money and perception relatively easy. Measuring performances (like intended second, third order effects on others) more difficult. That's were benchmarks help and agregated subjective opinions.

Look at some major steps in the EU.
For example the Euro. The ideas were always there, the currency stable exchange rate system in 1972 (as reaction on the Bretton Woods collapse), the EMS & ECU formally there in 1979 (European Monetary System & European Currency Unit). De Gaulle determined to have a counter against the usurping and exorbitant privilege of the US Dollar.
But it was not really needed to have 1 currency. Most of the advantages where there from the stable currency system refined into the EMS.

But it was the fall of the wall in 1989 that caused the Euro.
Kohl wanted to absorb East-Germany and was prepared to pay any price for that. Mitterand did not like Germany becoming A. much bigger and B. no longer a peripheral country but the most centerred country. Thatcher and Gorbatsjov concerned as well. The peace deal was to further bind Germany into the EU, by having them sacrifice their national pride, their Deutschmark.
And so was decided. The date some years ahead in 2000 to prepare the alligning.
Not something pan-European, but still the oldest raison détre for the EU. Binding France and Germany.
And what Mitterand also forced was more consistency in France regarding French monetary policy. In 1983 France was put for the choice to either leave the EMS or "improve". (devaluation Franc 1969-1983 50%)
It was at that moment also not intended that so many countries would join the Euro. In fact just France and Germany would be enough. The only countries really qualifying in all terms were Luxumbourg, the Netherlands and some other dots. The issue that some countries did not match the kind of economy (level, complexity, productivity level and growth, etc), the issue that some countries did not match the financial culture (needing continuous devaluation), was recognised from the start.
Belgium and Italy did not qualify. None of the South European countries did qualify.
But many countries feared missing the boat... and wanted to join at all cost... and France sought support from weaker countries to protect its own more weak financial position.
The compromises were made (eyes were closed with politics) and Belgium and Italy were allowed.
And when Greece pressed to join, they were allowed in a catch on procedure as well. But....... but that was before the hidden national debt was known. With the officially reported debt Greece was similar to Belgium and Italy. And Greece determined to join, told nobody.

=> what was intended as a Franco-German currency to "control" Germany after the unification completely derailed because all those other countries were afraid to miss the boat, to end up as second rank members. And joined much faster than would be prudent, or joined where they should not have joined for at least 2-5 decades later.
Just the normal random flock of sheep behaviour and the arrogance of politicians believing in their makeability powers, ignoring specialists advicing against it, because "somehow"...

Nothing imperial in my view about these events as such.

Back to Macron
Austria has distanced itself also from the Renaissance letter, using the word "utopian".
https://www.politico.eu/article/sebastian-kurz-emmanuel-macron-ideas-for-europe-are-utopian/
 
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That you for your ideas. The history of the Euro as a french project imposed on Germany is well known. I do disagree with the idea that it could have been a franco-german project: A France alone in the Euro with Germany would have meant a higher valued euro and competition within the single market. France would have been trounced in industry by Italy, perhaps even lost somewhat to Spain. They needed at least Italy on board.

Doing away with the many multinational institutions and "merging" them together in the European Union was a kind of Cortez-burning-the-boats thing, as I saw it at the time. I think that the federal/imperial project for the EU's direction triumphed then. I could go as far as saying that it started going down the wrong path at the time of the Single European Act, or even further back with the 1965. But when it certainly went wrong was at the time of Maastricht: judicial affairs should never be outside strictly national control. Neither should foreign policy.

However least at the time these formally these remained organized under separate rules and treaties: it was recognized that merging these things together would be too much. But it was only temporary delay. More recently, enough that people here should recall, the idea of an "European Constitution" (the name itself betraying its intention) was pushed to put everything together, another big step in practice to abolish the freedom of countries to take part in some policies but not others. That "constitution" was rejected by the people in one of the "countries that matter", but it was replaced by the Lisbon Treaty with the same exact contents and intention. There is no possible equivocation now: the federalists are conducting the boat, and burned the other boats, deliberately.
 
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