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MagisterModmod

Discussion in 'FfH2 Modmods, Scenarios, and Maps' started by MagisterCultuum, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    I just quickly looked into an old version of MagisterModMod and it uses getSorenRandNum() in helpAcceptChallenge(). If this is still the case, that is likely the cause of the OOS. You cannot use getSorenRandNum() in any help python callback, as it is not necessarily called the same number of times on the clients and thus might desync the random state.
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Oops, that definitely was a mistake.

    I remembered that I used to have python prereqs or passive effects that used random numbers and caused OOS errors, but thought I got rid of those. It did not occur to me that I might have left one in a help string.

    That random number generated in helpAcceptChallenge does not even serve any purpose, as it is only used to define a variable iResult which never gets used for anything. That line should have been deleted a long time ago. I guess that is the sort of thing that happens when one starts the pyHelp callback by copying the pyResult callback and is not careful enough in editing it down.


    I found a few more bugs today, such as the Tower of Mortality killing elementals as well as undead units. I'm not sure how the line elif iPromotion == gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_UNDEAD'): in onUnitPromoted got deleted. Occasionally PyScripter does weird things, especially when using Undo and Redo. I should probably do the actual editing in PyScripter and only use PyScripter to check for bugs.


    I also noticed that the affinities from Demonic Pact traits don't seem to be removed anymore after the demonic pacts are broken. I still need to look into the cause of that.


    I may release a new update of mostly minor bug fixes soon, although I'd rather wait to also make use of miscasting mechanics (which would require lfgr to first release an update to at least make spell.getPyMiscast() work as intended, and preferably let promotions change the miscasting chance).
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  3. lfgr

    lfgr King

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    Keep in mind that I currently have virtually no time for modding (I think I mentioned this in the MNAI-U thread). I don't expect to do a release before the end of September, unless there is some game-breaking bug.
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I've gotten to thinking lately about how Kael said that Petrarchs, arcane units gifted with affinity in 2 spheres, often have higher levels of affinity in one sphere than the other.

    Having the affinity spells depend on only an affinity promotion plus a channeling promotion does not really reflect that very well.

    I originally implemented it that way because I did not want a unit to have access to both lesser and greater versions of spells, and since I could not (without python) have a promotion block access to specific spells.

    Since spells can have 2 promotion prereqs though, I am wondering if it might be more appropriate to have the lesser tier 2 and 3 spells require the 1st as well as 2nd or 3rd level spell spheres and to have the greater version require the 2nd or 3rd level spell spheres plus affinity.

    A spell like Summon Air Elemental might then require Air 3 + Air 1, while summon Greater Air elemental would require Air 3 + Air Affinity. An Archmage with affinity for Air and Fire might start out with Air 3 but not Fire 3, so he's have +2 affinity and stronger spells in Air but only +1 affinity for Fire.

    I was also thinking of maybe making tier 2 spell spheres grant +1 strength (like I now have affinity promotions granting +1 strength + 1 affinity and the tier 3 spell spheres grant +1 affinity), but am wondering if that might be too much. Arcane units can already get really strong when you have enough mana.



    Understood. I'll probably release one update of mostly minor bug fixes before that.
     
  5. thegreekweegee

    thegreekweegee DEMON, ATHETOS SAY, KILL

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    For the first one, you already have Sphere affinity and Sphere 3 give +1 affinity to the sphere's mana, and stacking them together can lead to a runaway effect of sorts. I'm reminded of the super affinity suggestion I made though, so maybe it could go like this: affinity gives instant access to all standard tier spells for a sphere, and purchasing the Sphere 1 + 2 + 3 promotions empowers the spells the mage has access to. Currently, once you have an affinity promotion, that's it, you don't have to work harder to empower your mage even further like in normal circumstances where you have to purchase promotions to bestow spells to them, and this would help smooth out the work -> reward scale with mage training.

    As for the second part, that's a hard no. A mage will be quickly incentivized to stack Sphere 2 promotions to empower themselves over being a more versatile unit, and with enough experience, this can really snowball to a mage that's essentially assassin-resistant and requiring a beeline to Magic Resistant units and Force-related shenanigans. Bonuses like Mind 2 bestowing psychic resistance, Fire 2 bestowing Fire Resistance, etc would be less balance-breaking but would grant a similar result.

    By the way, have you managed to see my lore question in my previous post? I'd like an answer to that, if possible.
     
  6. Dominus the Mentat

    Dominus the Mentat Chieftain

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    There is some problem with the White Hand cottages. Before converting to the religion, cottages have their original appearance, but after converting to the White Hand, they disappear, only showing their yields. Save attached to prove. Just press enter and wait the your turn come. After this, accept The White Hand as your religion and look to the hamlet northwest of Garduk.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I am thinking now that I will create separate Divine (or at least Divine 2) spells for priests with Affinity, instead of letting them use Archmage affinity spells.

    I just implemented for for each religion's high priests, although I have not tested them yet and will probably make some changes.

    Law Affinity + The Order + Divine 2 allows Summon Ophanim. (Valkeries, Ophanim, and Einherjar are the only angels or creatures associated with Junil in the Bestiary of Erebus. I tried Summon Valkyrie first, but naturally immortal units are reborn once their duration expires.)

    Sun Affinity + The Empyrean + Divine 2 allows Summon Seraph. (The Seraphim were made by Bhall but they are under Lugus in the Bestiary of Erebus as most of them which did not fall with or after Bhall were accepted into his service. I considered adding Solars, the only other Lugus entry, instead, but they are basically just an Angelic duplicate of the Aurealis elemental.)

    Earth Affinity + The Runes of Kilmorph + Divine 2 allows Earthquake. Earth 3 and Earth Affinity + Channeling3 no longer grant this as a secondary spell on top of Summon Earth Elemental(s). I increased the spell's range from 1 to 2, and allowed it to deal Physical damage (no non-flying units) as well as unfortifying them and destroying improvements and buildings.

    Nature Affinity + The Fellowship of Leaves + Divine 2 currently allows Summon Treants (Greater), where the Treants start with Druidic instead of Nature 1

    Water Affinity + The Octopus Overlords + Divine 2 currently allows Summon Stygian Guards.
    Edit: I am thinking of possibly changing it into Drown Armies, a spell that acts like Tsunami but with a change of transforming some of your rival's units in Drowns under your control.

    Shadow Affinity + The Council of Esus + Divine 2 currently allows Summon Changeling, which produces a limited duration Agent of Esus with the Changeling promotion so that it may Shapeshift like Gibbon Goetia.

    Entropy Affinity + The Ashen Veil + Divine 2 allows Summon Balor. (This would no longer be availible with Unholy Taint + Channeling 3.) Limited duration Balors summoned by Living casters would have their Bound By Compact promotion removed, so they can fight outside of hell terrain.

    Ice Affinity + The White Hand + Divine 2 allows Summon Aquilan.


    I tried letting mages get +1 strength from 2nd tier spell spheres, and found you are right that that is way too powerful.
    I tried this too and and first thought it might be ok, but eventually decided that it too was too much so I undid it.
    I don't think that will work.

    It would require creating a duplicate version of the standard spells made available by affinity, plus a third version for the spell tiers plus affinity, and blocking the first two versions when the 3rd version is available. Untill lfgr adds the ability for a promotion to block access to specific spells in xml, it would require adding python preres for all the spells. Having too many spells in the game can slow things down, especially if they use python, a the game has to check all of them for every unit every turn and whenever they move.


    I'll be tweaking things, especially once lfgr allows promotions to change the miscasting chances.

    I currently have it so that Archmages and most heroes should never miscast, Druids and High Priests miscast 1% of the time, Wizards 3% of the time, Mages may miscast 5% of the time, adepts 10% of the time, and most non-arcane units (like those who might learn magic from Govannon) 15% of the time.

    The affinity versions of spells are right now 25% less likely to miscast. (Now that I think of it though, it may make more sense to switch things around to make the non-affinity versions have a higher chance of miscasting and archmage units etc have a negative miscast chance modifier.)

    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by that.

    Currently, because gc.getSpellInfo(eSpell).getPyMiscast() does not seem to be exposed, miscasting just means the spell fails.

    Units that resist a spell should be immune to their effects.

    It could be interesting if units with high resistance could increase the miscast chance, but that would be a difficult mechanic to implement. The simplest way is probably to use python to passive add or remove an invisible promotion which changes miscast chances, but only after the dll is changed to allow promotions to change miscast chances.


    Kael has changed his mind on some things several times. At one point published a chart which had metamagic as the central, unopposed sphere with Force being opposed to Dimensional. However, he seemed to agree with me when I argued that it would make more sense for enchantment to oppose dimensional, mind to oppose metamagic, and force stand on its own. The Magic of Fall from Heaven post he made seems to fit better with that older idea. I'm not a big fan of ho it seems to focus on how the spheres could manifest in a DnD style campaign rather than the deeper psychological meaning of the spheres.

    I prefer to think of Metamagic as focused not on magic but on knowledge. If the Amurites' patron sphere was all about magic, you'd expect them to suffer in the Age of Invention. On the contrary, Kael has said that they prosper in a mundane technological world, as there sphere aligns well with the values of the Renaissance. The sphere has to do with preserving memory and revealing the hidden mysteries that can be learned by analyzing what facts are already known. It allows one to understand how other spheres of magic work well enough to exploit them, but also lets one understand and exploit basic laws of physics that would work in a world without magic. Building flying machines steam engines, ect, fits this sphere as well as any magical enchantments.

    It is not so much that metamagic makes one immune to or great at manipulating magic, as it helps one understand how to avoid or change its effects.

    I prefer to think of Force as about enforcing agreements, but since the laws of physics in Erebus were decided by consensus they are a sort of contract there. Magic is often about ways to get around the laws of physics, so Force is often focused on punishing those who break the latter of such laws or bend it beyond the spirit of such laws. Force tries to make things fair by allowing proportional countermeasures for those who bend of break contracts or natural laws. Kael says the sphere works through decrees, such as a decree of sanctity that can prevent a target from entering a specific area, and that powerful practitioners decrees can impact the entire world. He said a Wall of Force is a decree that applies to everyone preventing them from passing some area. It can definitely defend whole cities. I tend to think that the strength of force magic should depend on how broad a consensus there is behind the rule or norm it is enforcing. Symbols of boundaries that have been long respected could help friend and foe believe that there is a ward that should be respected and make it easier for Force to enforce it.

    What a fallen Force sphere would be like is pure speculation, but I tend to think it would have to do with manufacturing tacit consent to create an implicit social contract of norms that are not good for anyone. It would make people defend a horrid status quo and fight against their own interests out of a false belief that it is what other people want or need.


    I have not tried the saved game because I think I already made changes that break saves, but I did look in C:\Program Files (x86)\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Magister Modmod for FfH2\Assets\XML\Buildings\CIV4PlotLSystem.xml and noticed several places where other religious eras were used and ERA_HAND was not. I just added ERA_HAND there and expect it will fix the problem, although I'll still need to playtest to be sure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
    Dominus the Mentat likes this.
  8. thegreekweegee

    thegreekweegee DEMON, ATHETOS SAY, KILL

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    Then I guess we'll have to wait for lfgr to implement such a thing for my idea to be implementable. It'll take a while, since he's not able to mod atm, but I hope it'll come to fruition.

    This mechanic could be more useful for Heroes, as you already mentioned the once-in-a-lifetime power mages would be implemented as Heroes in game, though that would require adding promotions and be a pain to work with, so it's for the best to just stay removed.

    The idea is to increase miscast chances towards adjacent units depending on the promotion (magic resistant could raise the chance to 20% and magic immunity to 50%, as an off-hand example), but that miscasting chance increase would elevate the chance of a spell just failing and doing nothing. For example, you have a Magic Resistant Man-At-Arms adjacent to a Mage. Without the magic resistance, a Mage would have a 5% miscast chance, with said chance doing an adverse effect related to the spell used. With the magic resistance, however, you could implement it two ways:
    -The miscast chance would be 25%, with 4/5ths of the time having nothing happen and 1/5th chance of your standard miscast effects triggering.
    -The miscast chance would be 22.5%, as after the roll for the spell to not fail passes (and lets the spell fire), you have 95% chance of the spell working as intended and 5% chance of it failing and causing adverse effects.

    If this feels like a gimmick, however, feel free to ignore the concept and focus on the standard miscast mechanic.

    Sounds like you, Kael, and me seem to be interpreting the spheres ever so slightly different, with only the more obvious and straightforward cases having a consensus. I personally align more with your interpretation of how the spheres work, as it's all built up in an independent manner and focuses on how they'd behave naturally in a universe rather than having to fit in a DnD setting. I'm sure it's just Kael's DnD bias talking, as he did spend years refining the concepts in the (rather strict) framework DnD provided through all his campaigns.

    FYI, I did not intentionally equate Metamagic to magic, as I was kinda piggybacking on Kael's interpretation he shared us. Regardless, that answers my questions on a lot of things. I'll definitely have to release a post about my interpretation of the 21 spheres in the Lore section, I feel there's still ground to be broken about the aspects and I can't help but itch on the prospect of it. I already made a document about those for personal use, so it shouldn't take too long to refine and port to a forum post.

    Also, +1 for the high priest affinity spell idea.
     
  9. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I am thinking of not giving the Divine 2 + Affinity spells any religion prerequisites, even though they are basically High Priest Spells.

    Currently Profanes have Channeling 3 so they may access Archmage spells, but I'm thinking of removing that as their Divine 2 promotion would be enough to let them use a variety of Divine Affinity spells enabled through Demonic Pacts.

    I guess this means I ought to make Divine Affinity spells for every sphere that Demonic Pacts can grant Ritualists and Profanes. If I still let the Pact with Hyborem grant Channeling 2 + a random affinity, that may mean every sphere period.


    The first few ideas I have are:

    Air Affinity + Divine 2: Levitate? (Give a temporary Flying promotion to your units?)

    Body Affinity + Divine 2: Summon Succubus, summoning a Succubus with Body 3 (but not Channeling 3) so it can use Provoke but not craft any Body Elementals.

    Chaos Affinity + Divine 2: Summon Irae

    Creation Affinity + Divine 2: ??? Start Golden Age?

    Death (Arawn) Affinity + Divine 2: Remove Immortality? (Currently Unholy Taint blocks access to Arawn Death, so this may not matter)

    Undeath Affinity + Divine 2: ??? Maybe Contagion? Maybe move Dominate Undead here? (If I do that I'd consider granting Liches Divine 2, which would basically be giving them a 4th tier of magic for all of its affinities)

    Dimensional Affinity + Divine 2: ??? Summon Mobius Witch? Summon Colubra? Summon any random extra-planar unit? I could switch one of the Dimensional 3 spells to divine. I could bring back Open Portal, linking the unit's plot to some random tile. I just noticed that I never deleted the python part of that spell.

    Earth Affinity + Divine 2: Earthquake - destroys improvements and buildings, deals some physical damage and causes unit not to be fortified. Flying units are immune.

    Enchantment Affinity + Divine 2: Herald's Blessing (I already gave Heralds Enchantment Affinity and could easily give them Divine2. The Bestiary does say that Ceridwen is known to steal and use the blessings from Heralds to her own ends)

    Entropy Affinity + Divine 2: Summon Balor. (This would no longer be available with Unholy Taint + Channeling 3.) I cannot seem to check for the unit's caster or duration without adding a new passive spell, so I'm thinking Balors just won't have Bound By Compact unless they are Barbarian or Infernal.

    Fire Affinity + Divine 2: Pillar of Fire? (It would make sense for Brigit to have Divine 2. I might need to make a new Order High Priest spell so I can remove the duplicates)

    Force Affinity + Divine 2: Purge Magic? (Paimon can start with Divine 2 as well as Force Affinity to let him still use that.)

    Ice Affinity + Divine 2: Summon Aquilan

    Law Affinity + Divine 2: Summon Ophanim

    Life Affinity + Divine 2: Grant Immortality? (Currently Unholy Taint blocks access to Life, so this may not matter)

    Mind Affinity + Divine 2: Hastur's Razor? (I am thinking of removing Hemah's Channeling 3, as archmage spells before Strength of Will are easily overpowered, but giving him Divine 2 so he can use this ability plus Drown Armies.)

    Metamagic Affinity + Divine 2: ??? Awaken Magic? (I could give Paimon Metamagic too to reuse his ability to give units Mastery of Magic)

    Nature Affinity + Divine 2: Summon Treants (Greater), with Druidic instead of Nature 2

    Shadow Affinity Divine 2: Summon Changeling - produces a limited duration Agent of Esus with the Changeling promotion so that it may Shapeshift like Gibbon Goetia.

    Spirit Affinity + Divine 2: ??? (If this is mostly for Lethe's Profanes, I could make Despair stronger and put it here)

    Sun Affinity + Divine 2: Summon Seraph

    Water Affinity + Divine 2: Drown Armies - A spell much like Tsunami, but which transforms enemy units that are damaged more than 70% into Drowns under your control.



    If I do add all of these it may be a shame to limit them to Profanes and certain heroes. Maybe there should be a smaller chance of priests getting magic is spheres tangential to their god's main sphere, so Confessors/Profanes could get Fire affinity or Force affinity or
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
  10. thegreekweegee

    thegreekweegee DEMON, ATHETOS SAY, KILL

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    Or sth like Thunderstorm, which damages units in a 2 movement radius + extinguishes smoke/flames with a MUCH bigger effect on naval units, like a much more punchy mix of Spring and Maelstrom.

    As long as the unit is sacrificed for this, it'll be fine. For a non-sacrificial spell, you could try having a spell that makes units receive 3 free promotions, but can't be applied more than once (called "awaken talents" or sth like that), and if in a city, it can do not just that, but give them free xp, alongside buffing specialists. Muse gives free specialist slots, so it'd synergize pretty good, as long as you have citizens to turn into specialists.

    That's one way to go about it; I'm all for it.

    You're onto something here. I absolutely dig the idea of liches having a 4th tier of undeath to exploit to their benefit. Dominate undead as a 4th tier spell of sorts is something I like.

    If you want a summon, go for a Colubra, but creating portals at will is also a good idea for this.

    Or you could have a spell that "discovers" mineral veins, as an effect of being connected with Kilmorph.

    Absolutely go for it. Brigit and the Order high priest could share, if it's possible.

    I feel like it could do more than just strip magical ability. I can see Elementals, Golems, and especially Djinn receive potentially fatal damage from this as the magical forces that allow them to exist just go poof. Angels and Demons whose rank isn't high enough could also be severely affected by it. It really depends on how far you're willing to go with this.

    Same case with Death + Divine 2, go for it. This would also make the units possessing this combo very valuable, and a prime target for Shadows/Marksmen if the defending party doesn't have a Death Affinity + Divine 2 unit.

    I don't know about Hastur's Razor as a spell tbh. Personally, I'd try utilize the foresight aspect of mind for a new type of spell, but nothing comes to me atm.

    As its opposite of Purge Magic, it could also act like a turbocharger for elementals/golems/djinn, though adding metamagic affinity on Paimon could be used to reveal another side to the humble, plain-looking Luonnotar.

    Personally, I'd go for something more universal. The only thing that comes to mind though is something about exploiting souls as a resource a la fullmetal alchemist, but it's something only an evil person would do like Laroth.

    That'd be great, though I can't help but imagine Speakers of the Tide summoning Irae en masse while they Drown every poor sap around them and dominate any barbarian stray undead in a giant wave of death and destruction. Scary stuff.

    But it would allow for creative little concepts like Shadows summoning Succubi and Changelings to do the dirty work for them and Luminaries getting people to discover their greatest talents and single-handedly ushering an empire into a golden age, though I'm pretty sure High priests of Kilmorph shouldn't be able to summon Aquilans. It'll definitely need some work.
     
    plasmacannon likes this.
  11. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I'm thinking I may swap Druids' Channeling 2 promotion to Divine 2. I would not want them using spells like Summon Balor though, so I'd have to stop mages from upgrading to them. Adepts becoming Druids is still fine. I might also have to stop Priests (except maybe Priests of the Leaves) from upgrading to Druids, as I would not want Druids using all sorts of High Priest magic.

    "Thunderstorm" is a lame name.

    If I were to add such a storm as a top tier Air spell, I'd call it either "Hurricane" or "Tempest."

    It could combine the effects of Maelstrom, Tsunami (only on water or water adjacent tiles), and maybe Create Blizzard (only in cold climates), but I think its main special effect would be to toss units around to random nearby tiles. It could even end up hurling a ship inland or stranding units on mountain tops.
    I definitely would not want a Divine Creation Affinity spell to sacrifice the caster. The main unit I am thinking would get to use the spell is Eurabatres the Golden Dragon himself, and other likely units are High Priests, Druids, or Liches, none of which you would want to sacrifice for a few turns in a golden age.

    I was thinking the spell would extend a golden age for a number of turns equal to the unit's level, but that it would have a high chance of being Miscast. (Creation is canonically the least reliable and controllable sphere.) When miscast it might give your enemies a golden age instead, or could plunge you into Anarchy.

    Your suggestions would be really hard to code, or at least very inelegant.

    I decided to call it Make Mortal, and have it remove inherent immortality as well as the Immortal promotion. It needs python but is very simple code.
    I'm thinking I may make Undeath Affinity + Divine 2 enable Dominate Undead and Raise Undead (the spell that turns all the Sluaghs in a graveyard into Undead under your control).

    I may also make Undeath Affinity + the Staff of Souls equipment allow Call of the Grave, the spell that currently only Ars Moriendi can use.
    I don't think Colubras are good enough. A general Summon Outsider that could summon that would randomly choose one of many different sort of units would be more interesting, but might be too similar to Wonder.

    Open Portal is a lot easier. I already have it fully implemented. The spell was actually entirely enact from when I used it years ago. I had just changed the prereqs to TECH_NEVER as it was only there to be a random Wonder result.

    I would not want a spell that lets units create gold or other resources wherever they want, but allowing Earthquake to occasionally reveal random veins of minerals in effected hills and peaks would makes sense.
    I previously had multiple versions of the spell, including one for Brigit/Seraphim, one for Priors, and one for Chalid, and one for the Matron Essendi. I could keep multiple versions, but don't think I really want to if I could let clerics of multiple faiths get Fire Affinity.

    I am thinking of changing Banish to be an Order High Priest spell instead of something that requires Exorcist, Demon Slaying, and Righteousness.

    That spell gives Demons the Bound by the Compact promotion and causes them to jump to the nearest Hell/AV lands. It also currently kills limited duration summons, but I may change that. I might make it so that Banish can make other evil units bound to hell terrain too.


    That spell might fit the Force sphere better than the Order though. If I made that a Force spell, it might make sense to let it banish Angels as well as Demons.
    Making it damage units of those races would be easy enough, but since Djinns gained Magic Immune to code to make it apply to them might be a bit more complicated.

    Of course, Rathus Denmora (or whoever uses his Netherblade) and Angels of Death would be the best units to target such casters. They have the abilities of Shadows/Marksmen plus they automatically remove immortality from units they defeat in combat.
    I'm not really sure about that spell either, but it has a reference to Mammon's Archangel's name and I have not thought of anything better.
    I'd rather not change such a simple xml-only spell into the complicated python code needed to make that work. Since Mastery lets mages learn new Affinities, this is already rather overpowered.
    I'm not really familiar with Fullmetal Alchemist, but it is hard to think of a good spell that does not fit Laroth better than Sirona. If I do go with Despair, I may let it deal lethal levels of Psychic damage. Lethe's specialty is driving mortals to suicide, and Laroth's accidentally drove the two people he loved most in the world (his son and his son's mother) to suicide with his affinity before he had any idea how to control his power.

    The spheres of affinity granted to priests would not necessarily be the same as those form the holy shrines.

    Ice affinity would definitely be reserved for the White Hand clerics, not Kilmorph.
     
  12. thegreekweegee

    thegreekweegee DEMON, ATHETOS SAY, KILL

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    Yeah, those sounds much better. Miscasting and random effects aren't something I normally play with, but with that, both would be pretty balanced.

    That's fair, I see your point in it becoming quite ridiculous when you add summon powerups into the mix.

    In Fullmetal Alchemist, there was a substance called a Philosopher's Stone which allowed alchemists to seemingly cheat the law of equivalent exchange (basically you only took what you gave, nothing more, nothing less). However, it wasn't truly cheating, as a philosopher's stone was actually a mass of extracted human souls in crystal or liquid form, and when you used it, you "burned" souls to do your thing. This is absolutely something someone like Laroth or Alexis would do, as he already uses the souls of the dead to forge unique equipment, and her being the creator of Vampirism would realistically have her know of the utilities of souls as energy, not to mention the Soul Forge using fallen units to bestow production to a city (even though it works more on Death mana, but you know).

    Makes sense, I always saw shrine mana the same way I saw civ mana: less obvious manifestations of a religion's "personality". I'm curious on which affinities you would open up for each religion.
     
  13. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I am not settled on the exact affinities I might allow religious disciples, but maybe something like these?

    The Order affinities: Law, Fire, Force, Life, Enchantment?
    The Empyrean affinities: Sun, Fire, Spirit, Creation? Metamagic?
    The Runes of Kilmorph affinities: Earth, Enchantment, Creation? Law? Death?
    The Fellowship of Leaves affinities: Nature, Life, Death, Creation, Air?
    The Octopus Overlords affinities: Water, Mind, Undeath, Chaos, Metamagic
    The Council of Esus affinities: Shadow, Mind, Body, Spirit
    The Ashen Veil affinities: Entropy, Fire, Mind, Undeath, Metamagic, (plus Earth, Body, Spirit, Chaos, Dimensional, and Air are allowed from Infernal Pacts)
    The White Hand affinities: Ice, Air, Water (Auric grew up in an Illian village where the only temple as to Danalin), Metamagic (this is Auric's own innate affinity)
    The Children of the One affinities: Force, Life, Death, Creation, Metamagic, Enchantment?


    I am open to the idea of adding Divine 1 + Affinity spells if we can come up with enough good options, but for now I am thinking disciples with affinity but without Divine 2 can only use the greater version of Adept spells. It wouldn't make thematic sense for disciples, who believe their gifts are miracles that the gods work through then rather than talents they can study to improve, to have the knowledge of Sorcery needed to make full use of their affinities. However, I'd really like Priests of the Leaves to be able to use their affinity to cast Bloom without needing channeling. Maybe for that sphere I should instead make Poison Blade (Greater) require Channeling 1? I might want to do likewise in the Sun sphere, as Blinding Light is more thematic than the Empyrean priests than is Scorch.



    I'm thinking I might also let Earthquake randomly raise flat lands into hills and lower hills into flat lands. I believe there were some serious problems caused by changing water to land or vice versa, and maybe something similar for peaks. The AI could not understand what was going on, and if units were present there while the domain needed to be there changed it could cause a crash. However, I cannot think of any such problems that might arise from swapping flat lands and hills, and that should not change anything related to impassibility, areas, chokepoints, etc. The only problem I foresee is graphical, as the game engine does not properly adjust the height of improvements to match the elevation of the terrain until the game is reloaded. Showing improvements buried underground after an earthquake might be seen as a feature rater than a bug.
     
  14. thegreekweegee

    thegreekweegee DEMON, ATHETOS SAY, KILL

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    Enchantment for the Order sounds kinda iffy, but I can see why you'd want it due to Herald's Blessing. As I think about it more, however, it does fit in a funny way (be virtuous, or else).
    Same goes for the Empyrean, no complaints on Creation and Metamagic being included. They'd be well suited to uncovering people blessed by Amathaon, and their methodical, analytical pursuit of the truth makes them very well suited to the Metamagic sphere on top of the Sun sphere.
    When it comes to Runes of Kilmorph, Law definitely would fit them in aiding men who work for their wealth keep their fair share from unjust forces. Moral Death would keep the Earth conservatism from grinding into a deadlock by putting old ideas to rest to make room for newer and better ones, though Creation is a tough pill to swallow. On one hand, it could be tempered through discipline and hard work, on the other, Earth doesn't do the bombastically radical Creation tends to usher forth, preferring tried and true/slow and steady. Law and Death are good, see if Creation could work in a definitive manner and what would make it so.
    Definitely keep Air for Fellowship. It denotes that no matter what, nature will do its own thing, whether kind or cruel; it is what it is, and nothing else.
    No complaints on the 3 evil religions. They are good as they are, no additions or subtractions needed.
    Why air affinity in the White Hand? Are you going for the "the winter will never end, why care" angle? Personally I'd put Law in too, as Law represents order on top of justice, though that'd probably mean Priests of Winter would summon hosts of the Einherjar. I'd mostly have it for them to instill unbreakable loyalty to the God of Winter.
    Keep Enchantment for the Children of the One. They're all for striving to be better than the petty gods they're victims of, and it should show.

    Go for it. See what makes sense for each sphere and selectively block/allow spells by adding prerequisites in the right places for now. The rest will come on its own eventually.

    Don't see a problem with hills turning to flatlands and vice versa, even with the graphical issues. I'd absolutely see the buried improvements as a feature, a la Bethesda games. It also makes for an easy way to always have the High Ground against any Skywalkers ;)

    "It's over Anakin! I have the High Ground."
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I would not have associated Enchantment with the Order either, until Kael's reddit post about the heavens detailed the nature of The Peligard, Nantsuelta's vault. Nantosuelta is the most military oriented of all the gods, focused on training angels to be a perfectly disciplined army prepared to fight against evil.

    I did not intended to let Priests with Law Affinity summon Einherjar. That spell would require Channeling 2. For Priests it would only allow Loyalty.

    High Priests with Law Affinity under my last proposal would have Summon Ophanim, which seems very inappropriate for the White Hand or the Runes of Kilmorph for that matter. To be honest, a summon with Blitz and 7 base movement points is probably too much. Kael said "Law frequently gives power equal to any just challenge, but no more," which makes be think empowering mortals to fight for themselves makes more sense that having angelic chariots slay whole armies.

    I am now leaning towards making Valor require Divine 2 + Law Affinity instead of Law 3. Since the Bannor start with Valor as a race in my modmod though, the spell would need to do more than add that promotion in order for them to get any benefit from it (beyond counteracting the Entropy 3 spell). Maybe it could add not only Valor but also Courage and Morale, Remove Fatigued and Rebellious, and effect units within a range of 2. That might be rather too similar to Herald's Call though, especially if both spheres would be available with the same religions.



    When giving Air to the White Hand, I was mostly just trying to bring their number of affinities up as the other religions had so many more options.

    Giving the White Hand Air affinity was more for mechanics than lore. Tempests that can trigger blizzards seem to fit wit their other winter storms. The Age of Ice was a very stormy time, with cold winds helping deliver all that snow.

    At one point has the Illian Palace granted Air affinity, but I convinced Kael based on the psychological meanings of spheres to change it to Law and Enchantment.

    The Ashes of Brigdarrow revealed a bit of lore that I did not know back then though, which I could use to argue the opposite side.

    The first magic that we see a young Auric Ulvin use was Air magic. He grew up near Tarch's Tower, which was protected by a ward that would electrocute trespassers. After escaping the destruction of their homes, he casually mentioned to his friends that he has always been able to perfectly sense the exact direction of Tarch's Tower. Its crackling energy grew weaker as they got further away, but was still strong enough to help him orient himself with Lyr's map to pass through the Whispering Wood despite the Widdershins Curse. The first time in his life when he did not sense Tarch's Tower was when the group of kids actually left the plane of Erebus, passing through the Well of Shadows into a liminal realm between Erebus and the Netherworld. Earlier in the story we see him kill a hostile goblin using a bolt of lightning, after reaching out to Tarch's Tower and filling himself with enough of that erratic energy to make all of his hair stand on end. He told his friends that he had experimented with channeling such lightning before, but never used it against anyone. (The next time he channeled magic was when he was under attack by spirits commanded by the Necromancer Waldrun. He instinctively transformed the perverse undeath magic into moral death magic to free the sluaghs from Waldrun's control and send them to find peace in the next world. Later, when they were imprisoned along with Talia, the Elven Druidess gave him his first formal magic lesson. He found it almost impossible to guide the growth of a seed, but when she got the process started he could help it along. It took him hours to do anything with it, but Talia said the same would have taken her months when she was just learning the craft and that she was considered a great prodigy among Ljosalfar adepts. His next use of magic was to reach out just beyond the vale that separated their realm from Erebus and channel the power of the Sun itself through the shadows, breaking down the barrier and causing Barathrum to become part of Erebus. That is what blinded most of the Once Elves and gave Varn Gossam his first vision of Lugus. The Empyrean religion would not exist without Auric Ulvin.)


    I don't really remember how or why I convinced Kael to go with Enchantment. It may have had to do Mulcarn empowering Barnaxus to make him Ice Golems. I'm not sure that is good enough for the Age of Rebirth Illians though, as Barnaxus left them for the Luchuirp. Having Enchanted Blades is fine, but giving Illian mages the power to cast Flaming Arrows seems wrong. (The same could be said for the Meteor event letting them turn a fragment of Bhall's old heaven into the Scorched Staff thanks to their Enchantment mana.) I've basically now convinced myself that the Illians should not have Enchantment anymore.


    Metamagic is canonically Auric's own only innate affinity, although he uses it only to manipulate other spheres. It, like Ice, is largely focused on preserving the past, but also using the knowledge of the past to inspire a future. (This could also fit well with my pet tinfoil hat theory that Joshua and Harna Ulvin were guises of Kylorin and Epona, who may have been reborn among the Illians while he was still fighting their god. Living among the enemy would be a good reason to keep his identity hidden and not interfere with the next age. After Epona/Eve/Harna was slain by Gosea's forces Joshua/Kylorin might have assumed his last son died too and so focused on finding his wife's next incarnation. Once it is too late and he thinks his son is irredeemable he might resign to the fact that he needs to give the Godslayer to someone to take him down, but he cannot bring himself to wield the weapon as he did against the last God of Winter.)

    Air is the sphere of adventurers, and Auric was quite the adventurer in his youth. It is an unstable sphere, which could fit with his bipolar disorder. It does not fit so well with Mulcarn or the Illians as they were before Auric took over, but the more I think of it the more I am liking Air for the Illians of the Age of Rebirth.

    Auric's mental health problems could also point towards Water. Auric grew up among Illians who worshiped Danalin rather than Mulcarn, so it seems Danalin was the god Mulcarn hated least. The local priest often drew lessons from the life of Trenton Majosi. It is Majosi's ritual that powers The Draw and Ascension. Water does do Cold damage. I'm not really thinking that this is enough though. I really don't want High Priests of Winter drowning armies and producing an OO UU. Lets forget about Water.


    I guess we are left with the question of whether the Illian palace should be Ice/Air/Law, Ice/Air/Metamagic, or Ice/Metamagic/Law.



    Tali was said to be a close friend of Danalin, so I guess Air could fit with the Overlords too, although they may have enough.


    ---

    I have decided to give Spirit Affinity + Divine 2 two separate spells, dependent on alignment.

    Despair would be much like it is now, but potentially lethal. Good players and good units would be forbidden from using it.

    Peace would be reassigned to Spirit Affinity + Divine 2 instead of Spirit 3. (Assuage is good enough on its own for Spirit archmages.) Evil players and evil units would be forbidden from using it, as it is very much not in their nature to sacrifice themselves in order to end wards and reduce the Armageddon Counter.

    Profanes (with Pact with Lethe) and Whisperers would never be able to use Peace, but Despair makes a lot of sense for them. Luminaries would never use Despair, but Peace makes lots of sense for them.

    I am thinking the Elohim Counselors will gain Divine 2, so they can use either spell depending on alignment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  16. Hightower

    Hightower Prince

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    These are not necessarily lore-based, but I put in some thoughts above. I think you'd probably want the same number of spheres for each religion (except of course that the Veil unlocks Infernal Pacts).
     
  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I was thinking 5 affinities per religion, with the patron sphere being 3x more likely than each of the others.

    Life is a very martial sphere. Remember Basium? Life is largely about being willing to keep on fighting for a cause worth dying for rather than giving up or trying to stay safe. That is very Order oriented, even if Sabathiel does not like how far Basium goes. In early versions of FfH2 (when all priest spells used spell spheres plus divine) Confessors had Life 1 so they could cast Sanctify.


    Kilmorph is really not that nurturing. She will give people a chance to work and pay fair wages, but never grant unearned charity to the lazy or unworthy. Her faith is completely and utterly opposed to the Mammon, so mind makes no sense at all. I considered Body, but Succubi don't fit Runekeepers at all.

    A lot of Octopus Overlords stuff was borrowed from Kaels DnD campaign that was set is Oghma's vault. Hastur's forces are invading the realms of both Oghma and Danalin. Floating Eye used to be an Overlords spell. A lot of Oghma's angels have betrayed their god to follow Hastur. The Overlords are servants of Hastur, Mammon's archangel, so Mind is a must.


    I think Body fits with Esus very well. The sphere is not all brutality, but includes sophisticated psychopaths and assassins who carefully plot their murders so they can never get caught. Aeron is the patron of Vampires, who favor using Esus to counter the power of Lugus. Thematically I think Dimensional fits ok too, and I'd be fine with Agents of Esus casting escape, but letting Whisperers open up Portals seems a bit much.

    I was thinking Death for the Children of the One because Arawn does not send souls to the other gods to recruit into their armies. He leaves humanity alone as they wish all gods would.
     
  18. thegreekweegee

    thegreekweegee DEMON, ATHETOS SAY, KILL

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    I was reading that again, and I thought of a little something when it came to Enchantment spells. AFAIK Enchantment is best utilized with other spheres for the strongest results, so Flaming Arrows would make more sense if it was combined with Fire mana or something of the sort. Enchantment 2 with Ice mana would allow for Icicle Arrows for instance (+1 Cold Combat instead of +1 Fire Combat), but I feel expanding such an idea to its fullest would take a lot of work. Just something to keep in mind, really.

    Enchantment 1 could also be changed into something more generic, but I feel +25% strength for all units would be pretty OP.
     
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  19. Dominus the Mentat

    Dominus the Mentat Chieftain

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    I think that option fits more better. Ice is the element of Mulcarn and represents unchanging, tradition and resistance to the new. Metamagic represents knowledge and memory. In the case of the Illians, Metamagic means what they know and remember of the Age of Ice, the life in the winter and maybe the rituals to turn that possible. Law represents the blinded loyalty to Mulcarn and now to Auric and his mission of ascending to godhood and bring a new age of ice. It combines well with Ice because the lore says that Law is sphere of inflexibility. Atributes that fit well for the Illians.

    I think Air isn't fit as a national mana for the Illians because it's a chaotic sphere (even with their new spell about storms). The Illians are a civilization organized with a purpose. They don't do things just for the fun or because they have an ephemerous wish in the moment. They are focused in bringing their god back and with him, a new promise of glory. Air could fit very well as one of the religious affinities of the White Hand religion because is one of the elements that composes an blizzard (of course the religion is not only about blizzards, but these ice storms are the manifestation of Mulcarn's power and the messengers that bring the winter and, therefore, uncontrolable ones).
     
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  20. Dominus the Mentat

    Dominus the Mentat Chieftain

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    Some bugs I have observed when playing:
    • The Throne of Hell wonder is very large inside of a city. Is that intended?
    • Units that have immunity to cold can be allowed to pick the Cold Resistance promotion too.
    • After Gibbon Goetia dies, appears a message repeating and adding a copy of his name every turn. Another thing is somewhat he appears under barbarian control before dying again and the message bug with his name appears again.
    • The Scorpion Clan Goblin Chariot requires horse to be trained. Is that intended to make barbarians less powerful and reduce difficulty ?
    • Shouldn't deer disappears or change when hell corruption spreads in its tile ?
    • When playing with Auric, The White Hand ritual crashes the game when completed. That not happened when I played with Braeden the Laconic.
     

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