Main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure

[aelf]

Does he really think that Taliban is a nationality?

 

[berkut]

Transculturation is by far more productive

 

[ParadigmShifter]

This guy doesn't seem to like multiculturalism (I think there might be a swearword in there, but it's hard to tell)


Link to video.

EDIT: Watch out for those Muslamic Rake Gangs though.

 

[Tee Kay]

Ah, good old IRIB

Reminds me a little of this


Link to video.

 

[BuckeyeJim]

Multiculturalism apparently means you have to allow terrorists and armed militias a free pass?

It would seem to be that I'm in agreement with anti-Western extremists here. So I should consider some kind of an alliance with the likes of the Taliban? "Keep the darkies where they can put their backward illiberal values into practice."

If Australia's system is so efficient, an example of the liberalizing powers of the proper policy, then why discriminate against the Taliban, infibulators, and armed militias? Unless, of course, you're admitting that certain groups of people are incompatible with western culture, unreformable, and will come here with the expressed desire to never matriculate into the heterogeneous multi-culture.

Who are we to criticize an entire group of people in a political organization? How are we supposed to differentiate between people who are genuinely trying to defend their land and preserve their culture as opposed to those who just want to kill westerners. I bet a good majority of the Taliban could adjust to western society. Shame on you for discriminating against people based on nebulous pronouns.

 

[Tee Kay]

If Australia's system is so efficient, and example of the liberalizing powers of the proper policy, then why discriminate against the Taliban, infibulators, and armed militias? Unless, of course, you're admitting that certain groups of people are incompatible with western culture, unreformable, and will come here with the expressed desire to never matriculate into heterogeneous multi-culture.

Who are we to criticize an entire group of people in a political organization? How are we supposed to differentiate between people who are genuinely trying to defend their land and preserve their culture as opposed to those who just want to kill westerners. I bet a good majority of the Taliban could adjust to western society. Shame on you for discriminating against people based on nebulous pronouns.

Firstly, Taliban is not a culture.
Secondly, Taliban is also not a nationality.
Thirdly, We "discriminate" against Taliban members as one would "discriminate" against racists or criminals, that is, it's not really discrimination in the sense of racial or cultural discrimination, but rather because these are violent and hateful individuals.
Finally, we as civilized people have something called the rule of law, which includes something called presumption of innocence, meaning we don't punish someone until they're proven guilty of a crime. Discriminating against people of certain nationality just because some of them are criminals goes against this principle. Even in the case of people who belonged to unsavoury organizations, background checks and other checks should be implemented, but a simple blanket ban on everyone who's ever had the slightest involvement with that organization can be unfair. Oskar Schindler was after all a member of the NSDAP.

 

[Arwon]

It would seem to be that I'm in agreement with anti-Western extremists here. So I should consider some kind of an alliance with the likes of the Taliban? "Keep the darkies where they can put their backward illiberal values into practice."

If Australia's system is so efficient, an example of the liberalizing powers of the proper policy, then why discriminate against the Taliban, infibulators, and armed militias? Unless, of course, you're admitting that certain groups of people are incompatible with western culture, unreformable, and will come here with the expressed desire to never matriculate into the heterogeneous multi-culture.

Who are we to criticize an entire group of people in a political organization? How are we supposed to differentiate between people who are genuinely trying to defend their land and preserve their culture as opposed to those who just want to kill westerners. I bet a good majority of the Taliban could adjust to western society. Shame on you for discriminating against people based on nebulous pronouns.

Well that was rather desperate and flailing.

Smooches, yo.

 

[BuckeyeJim]

Firstly, Taliban is not a culture.
Secondly, Taliban is also not a nationality.
Thirdly, We "discriminate" against Taliban members as one would "discriminate" against racists or criminals, that is, it's not really discrimination in the sense of racial or cultural discrimination, but rather because these are violent and hateful individuals.
Finally, we as civilized people have something called the rule of law, which includes something called presumption of innocence, meaning we don't punish someone until they're proven guilty of a crime. Discriminating against people of certain nationality just because some of them are criminals goes against this principle. Even in the case of people who belonged to unsavoury organizations, background checks and other checks should be implemented, but a simple blanket ban on everyone who's ever had the slightest involvement with that organization can be unfair. Oskar Schindler was after all a member of the NSDAP.

1. Never suggested it.
2. Never suggested it.
3. Good, then we have found some common ground.
F. Good, ante up and start letting the Taliban folks prove they're either or good or bad. Otherwise you might as well just be the Taliban and sign an alliance with them. I'm not suggesting we do anything other than do rigid, thorough, aggressive background checks before we allow them to immigrate. Get a sense on where their allegiances lie.

@ Arwon: I wasn't the one who began prattling in absurdities. That would have been aelf. And you to a certain extent. You made mention earlier of biker gangs who commit crime. We don't discriminate against whites because of biker gangs. Yet, you and others have always been ever so quick to pull the trigger on the X-word simply because I want to keep terrorists and people who can't adjust to western liberalism out of our country to preserve security for the citizens. See where this is going?

 

[aelf]

It would seem to be that I'm in agreement with anti-Western extremists here. So I should consider some kind of an alliance with the likes of the Taliban? "Keep the darkies where they can put their backward illiberal values into practice."

Aww, did I hurt your feelings? Do you feel victimised, unfairly characterised and unjustifiably blamed for having sentiments that you might not actually have?

I still have to point out, though, that you totally missed the point there.

 

[innonimatu]

Hey, can we have some real examples of what multiculturalism is supposed to be and then discuss those?

Just explain the situation in any one country of your choice which you believe represents "multiculturalism", how that situation came to be, and its positive/negative aspects to make an argument for or against it. It would be nice to have some real, detailed examples for a change, instead of more vague theoretical discussion.

 

[BuckeyeJim]

Aww, did I hurt your feelings? Do you feel victimised, unfairly characterised and unjustifiably blamed for having sentiments that you might not actually have?

I still have to point out, though, that you totally missed the point there.

No. Not at all. Why would my feelings be hurt? Your point, as poorly constructed as it is, is noted. It's called playing the switcheroo on your ill-placed hyperbole. But apparently that point was missed on your behalf.

 

[Arwon]

Hey, can we have some real examples of what multiculturalism is supposed to be and then discuss those?

Just explain the situation in any one country of your choice which you believe represents "multiculturalism", how that situation came to be, and its positive/negative aspects to make an argument for or against it. It would be nice to have some real, detailed examples for a change, instead of more vague theoretical discussion.

I think you'll find several Australians and a few Canadians have done exactly that, repeatedly, in this thread.

 

[aelf]

Hey, can we have some real examples of what multiculturalism is supposed to be and then discuss those?

Just explain the situation in any one country of your choice which you believe represents "multiculturalism", how that situation came to be, and its positive/negative aspects to make an argument for or against it. It would be nice to have some real, detailed examples for a change, instead of more vague theoretical discussion.

The concept of multiculturalism originates in theory, as I see it. Its praxis is to be found in dialogical interaction between different groups and the appreciation but non-essentialisation of difference. I suppose concrete examples of such could be found in many initiatives designed to support minority and disadvantaged groups in developed and even developing countries. On the other hand, concrete examples of how people do not engage in the multicultural praxis can be found both in some of the same countries and here - the stigmatisation of difference that conforms to traditional stereotypical, totalising and essentialising lines.

No. Not at all. Why would my feelings be hurt? Your point, as poorly constructed as it is, is noted. It's called playing the switcheroo on your ill-placed hyperbole. But apparently that point was missed on your behalf.

I get your intention. The point is it kinda falls flat since you don't seem to understand the use of my hyperbole.

 

[BuckeyeJim]

Some Muslims in Canada aren't exactly the most culturally adaptive sort of people on the planet either. Death threats to secular Muslims who denounce attempts to introduce Shariah Law into the Ontario Justice system, attempts to introduce Shariah Law period, honor killings, plenty of radical clerics, plenty of recruits heading to Somalia to wage Jihad, child brides, infibulation, government reports identifying exponentially disturbing trends of home grown extremism, immigrants refusing to let their kids participate in music and phys-ed classes. Yeah, it's going swimmingly well in Canada.

 

[Arwon]

The plural of anecdote is not data. Got any?

 

[Camikaze]

Hey, can we have some real examples of what multiculturalism is supposed to be and then discuss those?

Just explain the situation in any one country of your choice which you believe represents "multiculturalism", how that situation came to be, and its positive/negative aspects to make an argument for or against it. It would be nice to have some real, detailed examples for a change, instead of more vague theoretical discussion.

In some ways examples of multiculturalism have been given and explained. But it's hard to give a response to what is essentially, 'describe your country' or to give an entirely logical answer to 'does your city work?'.

 

[Yared]

Spoiler :

Uppväxten avgörande för brottslighet

Publicerad 2011-03-19 13:15

Skillnader i brottsstatistiken mellan invandrare och svenskar kan till stor del förklaras av skillnader i uppväxtmiljö.

Det visar en ny svensk studie [1] som slår hål på främlingsfientliga argument.

Tidigare undersökningar kring invandrare och brottslighet har fokuserat på att invandrare är överrepresenterade i brottsstatistiken men har inte förklarat varför, menar Jerzy Sarnecki, professor i kriminologi.
Annons:

Han är en av tre forskare bakom en ny undersökning från Stockholms universitet som visar att den skillnad som finns i mycket stor utsträckning försvinner när man jämför svenskar och invandrare som lever under likartade socioekonomiska förhållanden.

– Skillnaderna beror inte på att "invandrarkulturer" är mer brottsbenägna eller liknande. Utan det här beror i övervägande del på under vilka förhållande invandrare lever i Sverige och om de kan skaffa sig de resurser som är nödvändiga för att leva ett anständigt liv, säger Sarnecki.

Studien visar att när hänsyn tas till faktorer som var vi vuxit upp, våra föräldrars utbildning, sysselsättning och inkomst så försvinner till större delen de skillnader som finns mellan första och andra generationens invandrare och svenskar. Enligt Sarnecki är det mest avgörande om föräldrarna arbetar eller inte.

– Att folk får jobb när de kommer till Sverige så fort som det bara går är det mest centrala. Då kommer deras ungar att klara sig mycket bättre.

Forskarna har följt 66.330 personer som under åren 1990–1993 gick ut grundskolan i Stockholmsområdet fram till 2005. Personernas brottslighet har analyserats med hänsyn till socioekonomiska förhållanden under deras uppväxt.

De skillnader som ändå kvarstår när dessa förhållanden har vägts in kan enligt Sarnecki bero på mätfel i undersökningen men skulle också kunna bero på att invandrare i viss mån diskrimineras i rättsväsendet. Det finns inget stöd för att skillnaderna kan kopplas till vilka länder personerna kommer från.

– Det finns inga likheter i brottsmönstren mellan människor som kommer från samma länder eller som tillhör samma invandringsvågor. Att brottslighet hos olika invandrargrupper skulle kunna förklaras med kulturskillnader kan vi i princip avskriva.

Elina Lundberg/TT

Länkar i artikeln:

1. http://www.samfak.su.se/content/1/c6/01/18/63/SULCISWP_2011_1.pdf

Google translated version (with me doing a quick fix of some stuff):

Spoiler :

Differences in crime rates among immigrants and Swedes can be largely explained by differences in growing environment.

This shows a new Swedish study [1], which punches holes in xenophobic arguments.

Previous studies on immigrants and crime have focused only on immigrants being overrepresented in crime statistics without really explaining why, says Jerzy Sarnecki, professor in criminology.

He is one of three researchers behind a new study from Stockholm University which shows that the difference that exist in great extents ceases to exist when a comparison between Swedes and immigrants who are living in similar socioeconomic conditions ["Low-Status Concrete Suburbs, Apartment Blocks"] is made.

- The differences that exist [between Swedes and immigrants in the Crime Statistics] can not be explained away with 'cultural differences'. Rather, this largely depends on the actual conditions of immigrants living in Sweden and if they can acquire the resources necessary to live a decent life, "said Sarnecki.

The study shows that when taking into account factors such as where we grew up, our parents' education, employment and income, the differences between the first and second generation immigrants and Swedes mostly disappear. According Sarnecki, the most crucial factor is whether the parents are working or not.

- People being put into work ASAP when they arrive in Sweden is most central, because then their children will do much better.

The researchers followed 66 330 persons who had completed Primary Education [Compulsory School?] during the period 1990-1993 in the Stockholm area, up until 2005. Their crime has been analyzed with regard to the socio-economic conditions of their childhood.

The differences that still persist when these conditions have been factored in can be, according Sarnecki, a result of measurement errors in the investigation but could also be due to immigrants, to some extent, being discriminated against in the judicial system. There is no evidence that the differences can be linked to which countries these people come from.

- There are no similarities in crime patterns between people coming from the same countries or people belonging to the same immigration waves. We can simply put dismiss the argument that crimes of various immigrant groups can be attributed to cultural differences.

Links in article:

1. http://www.samfak.su.se/content/1/c6/01/18/63/SULCISWP_2011_1.pdf

BTW, the article in question is written in English... So go check it out.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

No numbers are given but perhaps a better ratio between labor immigration and asylum seekers, from the same culture, would be something to aim for. It would of course mean that nations like Australia would have to take a larger responsibility...

Couldn't find the original article..

Sweden is the country within the Economic Cooperation Organization OECD with the greatest difference in employment between native and foreign-born. This according to a report from the Ministry of Enterprise. Sweden has, by international standards, a large proportion of refugee immigration, which may explain the low employment rate among foreign-born. At the same time is labour migration lower than in other countries, according to the report.

I don't mean to brag about being right, but..

 

[Arwon]

About what? All that demonstrates is refugees have a lower unemployment rate than skilled migrants entering under work or family visas. Which is, y'know, kinda obvious?

Do tell us what you think you've proven!

 

[JollyRoger]

Free market is deciding on multiculturalism:

Spanish-language media giant Univision Communications Inc. plans to launch three new cable television channels next year in a bid to tighten its grip on the growing Latino market and diversify its revenues.

Univision is expected to announce Thursday that one of the channels will offer soccer and other sports, one will be devoted to news and information, and a third will showcase the spicy Spanish-language soap operas, or telenovelas, that fuel Univision Network's prime-time ratings.

The new channels are part of an increasing trend by media companies to increase their investment in Spanish-language TV.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-univision-20110519,0,1331378.story