Make scouts useful

jasper

Warlord
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Messages
212
Location
USA
1. Get rid of light cavalry
2. That it

Now scouts can be the mobile skirmisher raider scout unit. Scouts can be the guy. Adjust their talent tree.

Tldr: now scouts just scout which is too specific and doesnt remain useful that long. Scouts and l cav are very similar so comvine their roles and weed out the bs. U
 
Scout's would be more useful if you didn't have kwisatz haderach vision that could see through solid matter, and discover minerals you didn't know existed 2000 years ago when you scouted the area, or you didn't get permanent vision of what people are doing across the continent without needing a scout to actually see it.

Scouts suck because there's no scouting. After you glance at an area you don't need to see it again EVER. Your one scout in 3000 BC will let you know that China build an aqueduct in 2500 years, and that it has oil in almost 5000 years.
 
They should make survey also give +50% production to recon units; I bet most people don't even know what that card even does.

Scouts are still useful for cheap garrisons in captured cities, and of course for scouting. Skirmishers and beyond are awful though and need better stats or more abilities. Maybe they could make skirmishers and beyond ignore terrain and receive double rewards from huts.
 
They should make survey also give +50% production to recon units; I bet most people don't even know what that card even does.

Scouts are still useful for cheap garrisons in captured cities, and of course for scouting. Skirmishers and beyond are awful though and need better stats or more abilities. Maybe they could make skirmishers and beyond ignore terrain and receive double rewards from huts.
Eh, I use Survey quite a lot, if I don't have any barbs around.

I think Scouts are ok as they are, although I wouldn't mind them starting with a free promotion so you could pick either the forest or the hills movement bonus from the get-go. I also think the promotion tree could use some tweaking, for instance the move-after-attacking promotion is not exactly great on your scouts (but does become useful once they get ranged attacks), yet you end up picking it anyway if you want to aim for the +20 combat strength promotion.
 
I think one of the bigger problems with the recon unit line after scouts is that they're so expensive to build relative to what they can actually do. There's just no reason to build skirmishers or rangers over any other unit.

For example, let's compare the crossbowman with the skirmisher, which shouldn't be too difficult given they are unlocked at the same tech.
The crossbowman's base stats are as follows:
Spoiler Image of crossbow stats :
upload_2020-11-15_8-43-39.png


And here are the skirmisher's base stats:
Spoiler Image of skirmisher stats :
upload_2020-11-15_8-43-56.png


The skirmisher is indeed cheaper, requiring 17% less production to build, 17% less gold to purchase, and 1 less gold per turn to maintain. It also has +1 movement relative to the crossbowman.

But, the skirmisher also has -10 (-33%) melee strength, -10 (-25%) ranged strength, and only 1 range. This reduction in power is far greater than the reduction in cost. The extra movement is not valuable even for pillaging given how weak it is at defending if it were to enter enemy territory, and it is outclassed by cavalry units which have even more Movement to be able to move through enemy territory and still pillage and are also much stronger. Indeed, as the OP said, light cav can outclass these recon units for whatever you'd be using them for, combat-wise. You'd be forgiven, then, for thinking that the skirmisher must have a role outside of combat that it can fulfill. But, at this point in the game, you've probably already done a lot of exploring, and if any land remains unexplored, you should have no problem using a regular ol' scout to explore it, which is far cheaper both in production cost and maintenance... and exploration is the only other thing that the skirmisher could feasibly be used for. You don't even need to use a recon unit for this purpose. Incidentally, I also sometimes just use an old heavy chariot (yes, cavalry units outclassing recon once again) to explore if it's a location rife with barbarians.

As others in this thread have already shown, there are a few things that can be done to make them more useful, and it doesn't have to be limited to a combat buff, which could make them possibly viable in warfare but wouldn't really serve to differentiate them from units focused on combat rather than exploration. I think I would like to be able to use them for warfare as a raiding & pillaging unit, but I would never choose a skirmisher for that role given how expensive they are - I'd get far more value out of my production by just building a cavalry unit. Again, though, it would be nice if they were more influential in exploration as well, whether that means making later-game exploration more valuable or simply giving them extra abilities.
 
Could turn scouts into support units instead of combat units, so at least they don't take up your tiles and can participate in combat. Give them 3 sight, ignore terrain and see through woods shenanigans, make them upgrade to air balloons. Inca skirmisher replacement now a non-replacing unique that upgrade to field guns. Scottish highlander the same, upgrade to infantry. Spec ops can be the only unit in the spec ops line.
 
I'd like Scouts to primarily be for exploration and reconnaisance, but be better at it. Look at Vox Populi, recon units there specialize in moving quickly across terrain, and can be promoted to see further. Also, they gain experience for uncovering tiles, which means you get to explore their promotion tree. Another game in which I enjoy recon units is Beyond Earth, due to them being the only units able to launch expeditions, which can give you some really nice benefits.
 
The Scout unit is fairly useful, IMO - it is fragile, but at the start of the game it shines in scouting the unknown and carefully used, it can at least help with fighting barbs. The problems starts in later eras - even if you immediately upgrade them, you often face deadly threats which one-shot them simply, XP for promoting is too hard to get and one the whole the recon unit class it then just too expensive for what it can do for you.
 
Yea, scouts are good at scouting. The problem is they hardly do it better than a lite cav. Cost aside, Everything that distinguishes them as scouts is locked behind promotions and you need to fight for promotions. You train a scout and it hardly functions better as a scout than any lit cav unit. Should the main scouting unit's scouting perk be cheaper cost? Sounds boring.

Scout have a "spec ops" theme in later era upgrades. This fits perfectly with what lite cav specilize in, raiding and pillaging. Spec ops/scout line should be the units that venture behind lines and pillage and c4 improvements. At least give them this speciality over l cav.
 
Eh, I use Survey quite a lot, if I don't have any barbs around

No barbs? I'd like to see some of your maps then.

Yea, scouts are good at scouting. The problem is they hardly do it better than a lite cav.

I'm not even sure why you're making this comparison. Light cav costs twice as much, requires horses, requires maintenance, isn't available at the start, and you have better stuff to do with light cav like attacking.. If you're using horsemen to scout before skirmishers (because that IS useless), then I have no idea what's happening.

One's an ancient era unit, the other is a classical unit. It would make no sense if they were comparable.
 
The biggest issue I have with scouts is that it's too difficult to gain experience. They are generally not able to hang with comparable era units in a fight - which makes sense, since they are scouts - but fighting is the primary way of gaining experience once most goody huts are gone (since there's a finite number of natural wonders to discover). If scouts gained exp for doing more scout-like things, then they would be fine, since if you can get up a few promotions they're really not bad. It's just too hard to get those promotions unless you're going out of your way to try and do it.
 
The Recon are incredibly frail, and the main reason are:
  • Barbarians use the Recon-line. Since the barbarians units are the same than the civilizations have access and not tweaked* one, they made the whole unit weaker so you can have a chance to fight it. This is why they do not ignore Zone of Control, or cannot ignore Terrain from the start: the units will be impossible to catch and defeat otherwise.
  • To compensate, they created the "Ambush" promotion for +20 Combat Strength (basicly: ×5 power) since Barbarians Scouts cannot get promotion.
* : The Barbarians used to have the not tweaked Horseman. Can you imagine to deal at turn 10 a horde of 36 CS Horseman? Furthermore, there is a huge XP problem and some more:
  • The Recon-line enjoy a +100% card, which is incredible. Except the card is made obsolete with Exploration. You have to ignore the "best" tier2 government if you want to rely on a Recon-line strategy.
  • They cannot enjoy the +25% from Barracks / Stables, Armory or Military Academy, making them harder to train once there is nothing left to discover.
  • There is no Production card. Why should I train a Skirmisher (150 P, 30/20 CS, 1 Range, 3 movement) when I can train Crossbowman with the card for 120 Production (-20% cost), has +10 CS (basicly: ×2 power), 2 Range for just 1 less Movement, no Zone of Control and the ability to see Privateers? Sure, the Recon-line can hit-and-run, but you need a tier2 promotion for it.


Maybe it is time for a change? I guess those changes could be interesting:
  • The "Ambush" promotion is deleted, and is replaced with March: Unit will Heal Every Turn, even if it performs an action. Instead, the Recon-line starts with better Combat Strength.
  • A Barbarian Outpost appears with no Recon unit. A Recon unit appears 5 turns after the Barbarian Outpost appeared, and every 20 turns afterward. This allow the player to react to a Barbarian Outpost that is spawing nearby, because the Scout are now harder to deal with.
  • When the Recon unit goes back to the Barbarian Outpost to call for help, it transform into a Ranged unit. This prevent some bugs that allow the Recon unit to call for help multiple time when it can have sight on a city while be next to a Barbarian Outpost.
  • All policy cards that are increasing the Ranged unit promotion class production now also are increasing the Recon unit promotion class production.
  • The Barrack, Armory and Military Academy allow Recon class units to enjoy the +25% Experience.
  • Survey policy card is retweaked: the +100% XP only work for exploration purpose, no combat purpose. A new effect is added: +1 XP for every 10 hexes of the map revealed.
 
Scouts are very useful. They are cheap and can be built on turn 1 - in stark contrast to light cavalry. Despite being weak, they are helpful in dealing with barbarians be it clearing weakened camps, sponging a couple hits (especially with discipline), or blocking/killing barbarian scouts. They are invaluable to generating era score in the ancient era. I agree that skirmishers suck, but scouts are pretty great units in the early game.
 
I loved Civ5’s “Evade/Dodge” (or whatever it was called) ability which allowed a unit to retreat from a fight it would lose.
Sure, it was a PITA to come to grips with these units and kill them - but this was exactly the point!

I do not remember the exact rules in Civ 5, but in Civ6 the evasion ability could be denied, if there is no free land tile behind the unit or if all possible tiles are covered by a ZoC. A scout losing a battle could need a successful RNG roll and still suffer a (reduced) HP loss.



Another possibility might be to making them cheaper and to integrate the ‘Survey’ card into the unit. As Vargas1 and others mentioned, the slow experience gain is an issue with such breakable units.
So, why not increase it? Add additional sources for XP, increase the XP gain for existing sources. Let the scout’s motto be “Burn bright! Live fast, die fast”.
 
Agreeing here with the recon line being at the VERY least cheaper and having some sort of buffs RE: strength or movement related.

as others have said, the Scout is great. It doesn’t need adjustments really and fulfills exactly it’s role at the right time.

I like that we have Skirmishers so that Scouts can potentially survive longer if you get some upgrades on them, but it is way too hard to promote your recon units. Skirmishers really are cost inefficient for what you get. If I’m boxed in and have scouts stuck at home, sure I’ll upgrade them and station them in rough terrain as a defensive unit, but I’m not about to build anymore.

rangers are ok, but suffer from a lot of the same problems that skirmishers have.

SpecOps are mostly cool with limited usefulness, but if you can get an upgraded spec ops army they are really freaking awesome. It can be worth trying to upgrade a couple recon units but you won’t get more than that unless you’re Inca or Cree due to their unique recon units that are far better than the original they replace (to a lesser extent Scotland - the Highlander is enough of a buff to the ranger that I’ve built multiple for rough terrain wars, but still not amazing enough like the DOUBLE SHOT RETREAT MASTER Warak’aq for the Inca, or the free promotion double strength Okihctitaw for the Cree).
 
I agree that later upgrades of the scout is useless but I always build the scout first if I start on large landmass. Goody hut and meeting CS as quickly as possible to get the free envoy. Promotion tree seems fine to me. Usely my scout gets to level two, where I Usely promote them with hill and forest movement. I never expected my scout to do battles.. It's also fine enough to support early barbarians..
Yoy guys just want it a bit too OP IMO.
 
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