making my own map
- Thread starter rponton
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funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
An AI city with 360t, wow...
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
I was basically just messing around. I had to make something so in good OCC fashion I just kept making food vans. I was looking for places to put them and was tired of the barb pirate leader pillaging a square of farmland in my city when he landed, so I just encircled the island so they couldn't get off their ship. Ironically, I did this around the time that barb pirates stop because once I did it, they never showed up again.
Kenobi
Chieftain
From TimTheEnchanter's map, which is a thing of wonder, I noticed the multiplier from 423 basic trade to 3720 beakers is a bit under nine.
In a current occ I have a multiplier of ten, 132 to 1320 beakers. Could this mean you could theoretically get more beakers?
In a current occ I have a multiplier of ten, 132 to 1320 beakers. Could this mean you could theoretically get more beakers?
funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
A lot of the beakers come from the hired scientists, so theoretically you can have an infinite ratio between basic trade and science... With no trade in a city, you can still get 288b in it.
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
With all the SSC Improvements and wonders, you get an 8x Multiplier for each beaker. With Newton doubling the effect of science improvements, Library, University, and research lab each add an extra 100% of the base beakers for a total of 4x. Copes doubles all science production for an 8x total.
The einsteins provide a base of 3 beakers, but they are also affected by the improvements/wonders, so they produce 24 beakers each when the SSC is in full swing. I had 14 einsteins for 336 extra beakers beyond the amount generated by trade arrows.
I did think of a way that could possibly generate more beakers, but it's not sustainable. If you make one of the four specials a wheat, you could boost your population to get all 16 einsteins. You could then mine the wheat into a silk, giving 3 less total trade and a food shortage. Judging by the way the trade routes went up (only when every odd numbered AI Citizen was added, I would guess the trade routes could still be worth +87.(Adding the trade from the 20th AI worker actually did not increase the trade route, so giving them 20 workers - and thus 4 extra trade, then removing 3 from our side relative to the gold should still give the +87 that I got when the AI got to size 19). Because you really only lose out on the 3 base arrows, and not on the value of the trade route, the loss would be offset by the equivalent of 6 arrows from the two extra einsteins.
Long story short, I think you could squeeze another 24 beakers out of the city by doing this.
Two big issues with doing this in a normal game: the terrain is ultra-perfect, and the AI was "goaded" to grow unusually large and build key improvements. Usually I am connecting to a size 8 AI city, rarely do they go up to size 12 - and even rarer to fund them close enough to your SSC. My last game there were only 2 size 12 AI cities in the whole game by the end, and I was playing OCC.
The biggest contributor to high trade routes is taking the chance on keeping an AI city close enough to get the RR bonus. Most players wipe their starting continent clean of AI and defend it religiously. Worth thinking about...
The biggest contributor to high trade routes is taking the chance on keeping an AI city close enough to get the RR bonus. Most players wipe their starting continent clean of AI and defend it religiously. Worth thinking about...
funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
I thought it was 18b/scientist, but after checking I realise it's 24b/scientist. I wonder what I've done wrong in the past to only get 18b?
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
Agreed. I'm doing this for my own entertainment/research/theoretical pondering.
I did learn a few things...
- There is no limit to trade route payouts other than the limits of the trade in the city. Because the value tends to jump periodically (as the trade in the AI city grows), there were times I thought there might be some sort of cap. Turns out I think you just need to increase total trade in large increments to get a bump in the value of the routes.
- The AI will eventually build Superhighways once in a while, but usually too late to matter (I was starting to wonder if they ever build it)
- The AI is incredibly stupid (even more than I thought) when it comes to engineers/settlers. On a completely improved island with no free land suitable to settle and a completed sewer system, a size 12 city will crank out 2-3 more settlers, just because it can.
This amplifies your point about the cities rarely growing past size 12. The AI had nowhere to go, had a sewer, and a food surplus, but god help them if they didn't have 4 engineers running around doing nothing.This stuff is more apt to apply in OCC games than normal games because of the need for the RR Trading partner, but the principles learned could apply to other situations as well (just at a lower bonus level on the trade routes).
In Non-OCC games I think you are better off making routes with a well placed, well developed domestic city where you can focus your efforts on growth, maximized trade and appropriate improvements in both cities. You give up the foreign doubler, but you are more likely able to get the RR bonus and can probably make up the rest with the extra trade and 2 superhighways at least late in the game.
I also think the value of rivers has been underestimated in the placement of an SSC. They provide the equivalent of roads immediately, they provide a bonus arrow for the road once bridge building is discovered, and because river squares have 4 trade instead of 3, the 50% superhighway bonus gives 2 extra instead of 1. Add to this the ability to get trade from high-sheild squares. I honestly think I'd rather have a 0-special, 10 river city site, than say, 2-3 wine and no rivers.
funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
Isn't it hard to get a railroad on the optimal path through the poles?
Any kind of a spaceship/research game needs to optimize the SSC; the other way around is multiplying cities like rabbits and going all out delivering dozens of caravans and freights every turn.
Good point, especially with the NoWonders game starting up. With non-OCC, if there is no AI on your home island you should go find them, butter them up, and then set up an SSC on their island in a good spot for RR bonus later.
EL#7 at Apolyton, where Solo and Zenon both broke 500AD, is a good example of that. Early game, the rivers help move settlers and caravans faster, but they impede the "optimal road" connections until Bridges, which requires an adjustment in tech path. Finding a good river network is rare, too. BTW, 4 trade requires Colossus, which only lasts till Flight, and the big bonuses only kick in with RR and SH, so the "window" of max beakers is much narrower than an SSC using mostly Ocean, which also has 4 but no late-game SH bonus.
I'm not sold on converting rivered grass to Forests. I like to keep the Grass for extra Specialists. The other benefit is the defense bonus for the city site.
Yes, and it takes time. It's probably easier to use airports and shipping chains, but it's something else I do from timr to time. The plus, no shelid cost per turn (shipping chain) and no gold maintenence cost (airport) of course, you need to be on a pole, and another AI must have a connection to a pole. I first did this before finding this site, and never thought about shipping chains, which is now my preffered method.
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
Too true
Good point. Perhaps this is overstated. Even still, it's a nice push over the top between Auto and flight.
Here I'm mostly talking about OCC games where you need a city to provide both trade and shields. For a normal SSC sheilds should not be a focus. The trick in OCC is bribing enough None Settlers/Engineers, precharging them and then timing a swift shift to sheild production (then letting the scientists live off accrued food surplus until the SS techs have been acquired). I've tended to go to shields too early in the past, but I'm learning
la fayette
King
You have made your calculations without Research Lab, ... which is much more useful IMHO, since your SSC travels full speed through many turns without Research Lab, and only very few with RL.
(but we are talking about record SSC now, and the Research Lab must of course be included in that case )
funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
Speaking non-SSC: Is RL (through SETI) added to all cities, or just the ones with library or/and university? Like HD is not added until a factory is built in the city.
Funxus: Interesting "technical" question. Nethog's Reference list usually mentions those kind of dependencies, if they have been discovered, but is silent on that.
Tim: Agreed on the two NONE Engineers. Lately, though, I've been focusing on getting to either 30 or 50 production right after Indust/Factory and staying there through the end of the game. I avoid the carrying cost of MobWar and Robotics and can usually keep my max trade arrows pumping out beakers or gold while I stockpile freights. It costs 200g to precharge the production box with 30 shields for finishing a Structure, and usually I am making something like 300-350 with the research turned down between SpaceFlight and Fusion. The Components and Modules are started with stored freights, pumped up a bit with gold, and finished with the regular production. If I'm short, a few obsolete ex-Barb units get disbanded. If you can finish Apollo with 4-5000g and 9 freights extra, or more freights and less gold, you've got it made.
Tim: Agreed on the two NONE Engineers. Lately, though, I've been focusing on getting to either 30 or 50 production right after Indust/Factory and staying there through the end of the game. I avoid the carrying cost of MobWar and Robotics and can usually keep my max trade arrows pumping out beakers or gold while I stockpile freights. It costs 200g to precharge the production box with 30 shields for finishing a Structure, and usually I am making something like 300-350 with the research turned down between SpaceFlight and Fusion. The Components and Modules are started with stored freights, pumped up a bit with gold, and finished with the regular production. If I'm short, a few obsolete ex-Barb units get disbanded. If you can finish Apollo with 4-5000g and 9 freights extra, or more freights and less gold, you've got it made.
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