Man-O-War

[stormbind]

I always thought the Man-O-War was a pointless troop type.

1. Your empire might be land-locked (rarely built)
2. Age of sail is too short in Civ3 (short life expectency)
3. Takes too long to build (rarely built)

Anyway, I though... meh, I'm just being biased. I'll give it a fair chance in my next game.

I put emphasis on it on this weapon to ensure it would get the best possible chance to show itself. My empire was split across two islands, with a fleet of 10+ Man-O-War. Stats: 3(3),2,3.

These have big cannons so the plan was to use them as highly-mobile cannons and bombard enemy land-based units.

First encounter was 1x Veteran Man-O-War vs 1x Regular Frigate + 1x Tyreme.

This is an encounter the Man-O-War should win. I didn't want to lose the Man-O-War straight away, so I bombarded the targets instead. Frigate takes 2 points of damage. There is no reply.

Next turn: Man-O-War destroys the Tyreme, taking 1 point of damage. The badly damaged Frigate then responds, sinking my Man-O-War! Damn, but it's a fluke - surely?

So anyway, the loss of but one I can anihilate any fleet... or, not? Over the next 3 turns I lost every single Man-O-War to a Frigate and didn't sink a single one of them!

Is this a unit worth building? What is the strategy to using them well?

 

[Tomoyo]

Stack them in BOSOMOWs (Big Ole Stacks O' Men of Wars) and have the extra ships bombard your target before you attack.

BTW, a regular Frigate attacking a (in essence) regular Man-o-War has a close to 50-50 chance of winning. The Man-O-War isn't some sort of supership that never loses.

Man-O-Wars against Frigates is like Swords against Bowmen.

 

[stormbind]

Swords (3,2,1) against Bowmen (2,1,1)
Man-O-War (3,2,2) against Frigate (2,2,2)

I'd say you underestimate the Swordsman

If you need bigger stacks than the enemy to make the Man-O-War effective, then I think that underlines the fact that this unit is near useless.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Originally posted by stormbind
Swords (3,2,1) against Bowmen (2,1,1)
Man-O-War (3,2,2) against Frigate (2,2,2)

I'd say you underestimate the Swordsman

If you need bigger stacks than the enemy to make the Man-O-War effective, then I think that underlines the fact that this unit is near useless.

I think Tomoyo means the Babylonian Bowman - it has 2-2-1 as stats.

 

[stormbind]

Even so, it's apples and oranges. The swordsman and bowman aren't intended as rivals

Babylonian Bowman (2,2,1) vs Common Archer (2,1,1) is clearly the Babylonian's advantage.

And, I do not need a bigger stack of swordsmen to take out bowmen: such a stategy would be an oxymoron. England's unique unit stinks, and for multiple reasons:

1. Not historically accurate
2. Not complementary to culture
3. Not ballanced
4. Not playable

(imho)

 

[stormbind]

Also, with compared troop types, a player can take advantage of terrain to exagerate the units traits: There are no such possibilities at sea.

 

[Mojotronica]

They're perhaps the least useful UU in the game. Maybe the Conquests tech tree and Seafaring Civ trait has improved them somewhat -- and at least they are OFFENSIVE in nature to more easily trigger a GA.

IMHO, the English should have had a Longbowman unit with a bonus. I would have made the regular unit a Crossbowman, and given the English the Longbowman unit (comparable to the Viking's Berserker.)

 

[Tomoyo]

I think the English LBM should have extra defensive bombard because that is more historically accurate.

 

[stormbind]

Unlike with land units you cannot see far away so it's like stabbing in the dark. This makes finding a vulnerable target difficult - especially if they are trying to avoid you. Infact, your more likely to reach the end of turn next to a Frigate than a actually bumping into one.

Imo, this makes it less easy to trigger a GA

In my poor attempt to use MOW, I did sink a Galley and get the GA - but that's all I sunk and the odds of finding it in the first place were slim!

Lost the war, aswell: Destruction of my MOW fleet wrecked the strategy and there's no backup unit to take over when the primary objective fails.

Perhaps these are more examples for why the MOW is a poor unit?

 

[stormbind]

Originally posted by Tomoyo
I think the English LBM should have extra defensive bombard because that is more historically accurate.

The British maintained a navy to defend shipping lanes and the MOW isn't good in defense?!

So I would agree with the statement that emphasis should be put on defensive abilities, or perhaps they should not have a UU ship of any kind?

Etiquette also discouraged warships from attacking those of lower class, this makes a MOW attacking a Frigate out of character.

Not only that, but the English (the civ in question) did not control the waves and were not known for having big ships. Famous English ships..

1. Gloire, of tinker construction (pre-Galleon)
2. Mary Rose, sank immediately
3. Pelican, I'm not sure but maybe built in Amsterdam

HMS Victory was a British MOW. At Trafalgar, Nelson used it to absorb enemy fire without response: Not an aggressive maneuvre, imo.

So what about strategy? Is there nothing that can be done with the MOW? Is it more of a liability than a bonus?

There's another thing that feels wrong with the MOW. The English have nothing in the Ancient Era that accelerates their knowledge.

By the time they get around to building MOW, there is at least one other Civ which has already established naval supremacy.

When playing as England, I am quite often the last civ to build tallships and the MOW have only a few turns before being obsolete (how many years?)

For comparisson, HMS Victory by itself was in front line service for over 100 years! Ships like it were around a long time before.

 

[Ision]

the "Man O' War" ROCKS !!!

better re-check your strats with this UU - trust me if this unit is not impressing you - you're doing something wrong. sorry for the lack of detail in this response, but England is due up for a CIV review.

Ision

 

[gskyes]

The Man O War got a good rework with Conquests, and is actually good now. I admit that with vanilla Civ3 and PTW the MOW was weak, but it has gotten better. They added enslavement, so when you win, you have a chance of getting another MOW, which can also enslave. Moving ironclads to an optional technology extended the "age of sail" so that MOW's have a much longer lifespan than they used to. With these changes I would call them a decent UU but not a great one, but it is a definite improvement over previous versions.

 

[stormbind]

That statement doesn't help.

Can you describe how you put it to good effect?

 

[Mojotronica]

Originally posted by gskyes
The Man O War got a good rework with Conquests, and is actually good now. I admit that with vanilla Civ3 and PTW the MOW was weak, but it has gotten better. They added enslavement, so when you win, you have a chance of getting another MOW, which can also enslave. Moving ironclads to an optional technology extended the "age of sail" so that MOW's have a much longer lifespan than they used to. With these changes I would call them a decent UU but not a great one, but it is a definite improvement over previous versions.

Not to mention England's Seafaring advantage -- that enhances the unit a little bit too...

 

[stormbind]

@gskyes,

Thanks. I did not know this

 

[binyo66]

Originally posted by Pfeffersack
I think Tomoyo means the Babylonian Bowman - it has 2-2-1 as stats.

I consider you are lucky. Compare to F-16 America's UU? Its more difficult to triger the GA. (I cant say its useless, Ision will attack me somehow )

 

[yoshi74]

Well, the Man'o'War is a great unit. In my only game with the english at emporer i build only THREE of them by myself. The number growed fast as they enslaved other ships. I used them with great success till modern ships arrived. I had mostly a fleet of ~15 man'o'wars, even with constant losses. All in all its the best when you wan't a big navy without producing much.

 

[Sinapus]

*shrug*

I modded the M'O'W to be a bit better, including giving it a blitz ability and all terrain as roads movement. Base move is 2, which translates to 3 w/seafaring ability. Add Magellan's and you get 4 attacks/bombards or three squares of movement per attack. I'll have to go look at the stats when I get home to give everything.

 

[Lord Jimbob]

Originally posted by stormbind
So what about strategy? Is there nothing that can be done with the MOW? Is it more of a liability than a bonus?

Any unit in isolation is more likely to be lost in battle. Stack them like Tomoyo said and they'll be much more effective. This holds true for swordsmen, knights, and tanks (etc) as well.

There's another thing that feels wrong with the MOW. The English have nothing in the Ancient Era that accelerates their knowledge. By the time they get around to building MOW, there is at least one other Civ which has already established naval supremacy.

When playing as England, I am quite often the last civ to build tallships and the MOW have only a few turns before being obsolete (how many years?)

Commercial civs, especially the English in C3C, have a great advantage in researching through the ancient era quickly: if you build lots of cities early, your commercial 1 gold/city bonus will add up, allowing you to get more beakers for each notch on your science slider. In C3C English cities built on the coast have double this effect b/c of the extra gold/city for the seafaring trait. If you are playing England on pangea map, then yeah, they're not going to be so hot, are they?

 

[aaglo]

I think, that the C3C did a great job improving the Man-o-war. Now it surely has my respect as an UU.

And talking about famous english ships:
- Golden hind (francis Drake's ship)
- Souverirng of the seas (spelling?)
- Henry Grace a dieu (I don't know the english name of that ship)