Mana definitions

[Darksaber1]

While I know full well what the different Mana Spheres do for game play, I was just wondering what they actually do in Erebus/The Real World, where there are doubtlessly a lot more spells and powers. My understanding of them is a thus:
Metamagic: ?
Fire: power to create/manipulate fire and heat.
Nature: The power to affect/accelerate the growth of plants/animals?; ability to affect forest growth and the likes.
Creation: A tricky one, since it isn't in the game yet, so there's no spell to help guess, but probably the ability to be able to assemble an item from raw materials just by thinking about it
Entropy: Wasting, dieses, withering
Life: Healing, creating/transferring life energies
Earth: the Earth, metal; Alchemy?
Air: air itself; storms; lightning
Death: Necromancy
Ice: Ice, cold, blizzards, winter
Shadow: Deception, Illusions
Spirit: Souls; healing spirits(as in, making someone realize the wrong they have been doing, allowing them to change their ways); curing madness
Water: Moisture; rain; water
Force: Telekinesis?
Enchantment: Enchanting Objects; people
Mind: Mind Effects
Body: Effecting the bodies of living things, but not for healing
Sun: The sun(Is there a Sun in Erebus?), Sunfire
Dimensional: Creating portals
Chaos: Chaos
Law: Law
Please provide any more information you have, or uses you can think of.

 

[jimi12]

shadow is also for invisibility and darkness. keeping things hidden

 

[Darksaber1]

shadow is also for invisibility and darkness. keeping things hidden

Very True. Don't know why I didn't think of that.

 

[Kael]

21 dominions were created and a god was appointed over each. These two are so intertwined that it is hard to distinguish one from the other. In fact its difficult to say if fire is the power of bhall, or if bhall is the avatar of the fire power.

The names for the spheres are symbols. Fire, Water, Creation, Entropy. They are symbols selected to represent their dominion. What the dominion is much deeper than that. For example, winter is the dominion of stasis, rest and hibernation. It is that part of creation that advocates slowing and fights against change. That power is manifested by the season of winter, cold, ice and all the things we are used to. But it is more than just the way that it is manifested.

Mulcarn hates Bhall because his ideology is stasis and hers is unrestrained change. Bhall is the force of a forest fire, or the torches carried by a mob, or the explosion of a volcano. Mulcarn is a glacier, is the thick blanket of snow that keeps people huddled in caves.

Fire is the spirit of a revolutionary calling for change, a priest arguing that the church should accept radical new precepts, or a solider that leads a force to overthrow his government. Ice is the spirit that waits, that fights against all those examples because they are dangerous and unknown and destructive.

Both sides are needed in creation, the gods argue the extremes of their ideologies. One of the major themes of FfH is that these extremes often twist back into their opposition. The god of stasis changes the world, and through his actions the world is born anew. The angel of fire, the divine fury, becomes victim of her own ephemeral nature and falls to corruption.

 

[Darksaber1]

Well, I was thinking more about what sort of magic a person adept with the diffrent spheres would have, spells that are to minor to be added to the game, than what the gods they are paired with represent, but thats! Kael is the second person to respond to my first real Thread! Who-ho!

 

[Kael]

Well, I was thinking more about what sort of magic a person adept with the diffrent spheres would have, spells that are to minor to be added to the game, than what the gods they are paired with represent, but thats! Kael is the second person to respond to my first real Thread! Who-ho!

Yes. But from a design perspective thats what we go back to, the ideology behind the spheres, not their symbols. Just helps you open up and consider things that may be limiting if all you have to work with is the symbol. Each of the civs is patterned after one of these spheres, and we did the same headscratching when we thought about "What does a creation civ mean?" (that ended up being the kuriotates and we decided that creation meant super cities and the cooperation of unusual sub-species).

Think of it this way. You have 21 guys sitting on a city council. Each man represents a sphere and pushes for the extreme of its ideology. Now say there are rumors of an invading army coming toward the town. What do each of the council members want to do?

Fire: Raise a force and march out to battle
Sun: Send scouts to see if the rumor is true
Ice: Fortify here and see what happens
Law: We don't have to make any decision, their are already rules that govern what we do
Chaos: (who knows what in the world chaos will suggest?!?)
Mind: Send messengers ahead to bribe the men into turning on their commanders
Shadow: Send messengers to request the terms of a surrender, then capture the enmy diplomats that come to the meeting

etc, etc, etc. Some spheres may agree in this example. Oghma (metamagic, which represents knowledge) and Lugus (Sun, which represents truth and revelation) get along very well even though they are gods of different alignment.

So when you are thinking about Fire spells you can go for the obvious, ability to shoot fire, protection from fire, and all that. But you may also want to consider a spell that ignites the passions of those around you. Maybe granting them temporary attack bonuses.

Shadow does deal a lot with the darkness and invisibility, but it could also include spells that allow you to obscure others magic, confuse someone or cause them to forget they ever talked to you.

Some of these spells would be shared by multiple spheres. In the actual D&D game I ran a lot of the spells required 2 spheres to cast. So a Mind/Shadow caster was able to really mess with your memories and thoughts, while a Body/Mind caster could control your body like a puppet while your mind watched helplessly, or move your mind off into other forms.

Boy, I hope there was a point in there somewhere. I started rambling. Welcome to the FfH forums!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In the actual D&D game I ran a lot of the spells required 2 spheres to cast. So a Mind/Shadow caster was able to really mess with your memories and thoughts, while a Body/Mind caster could control your body like a puppet while your mind watched helplessly, or move your mind off into other forms.

If that's true, why are you so resistant to the idea of Cross-Sphere Spells in FfH?

Regardless, I'm adding them in my modmod. Not for every sphere promotion combination of course, but for several of the more thematic ones. Some sphere promotions might have more cross sphere spells than other, but only cross sphere spells.

 

[jimi12]

i have always been confused about the Force-Balance sphere. Force and balance dont seem very related and while i understand how Balance works out in an ideological way, force isnt so easy to distinguish from the force of other things, like the force of wind or an earthquake. These two examples would clearly be in the domains of air and earth and not force. So what would be force? and how would these be represented from a spell or design perspective?

 

[Kael]

If that's true, why are you so resistant to the idea of Cross-Sphere Spells in FfH?

Regardless, I'm adding them in my modmod. Not for every sphere promotion combination of course, but for several of the more thematic ones. Some sphere promotions might have more cross sphere spells than other, but only cross sphere spells.

Because we arent trying to recreate the D&D game and I think its overly complex idea for Civ4.

@Jimi12- yeah force is a hard one. I always viewed it more as the the power of mandates. A wall of force isnt anything expect the universes consencus that nothing should pass through this space. As such Dagda is similiar to Junil. Except where Junil is intolerant of anything outside of his strict interpetation, Dagda is willing to gather consensus. But once that consencus is gained Dagda decrees are immutable. That is force.

 

[smjjames]

Force: Telekinesis?

This sphere badly needs a solid defintion. Right now it's open to interpretation, take for example my interpretation and Magisters over on that thread discussing about the creation, force, and dimension spheres. I did say in there to not confuse it with 'The Force' of Jedi fame.

While Dagda is probably has Force as his main sphere (even though he is the god of balance) and I'm sure some explaination can be given to fit my idea of messing with physics.

While telekinesis could be a part of mind magic, but the way mind magic works is closer to psychology. Basically mind magic is about influencing or controlling one's actions. Don't get the idea that psychology is about controlling peoples minds, I meant that it's closer to it in knowledge of the way the mind works.

Metamagic is sort of like the core of all the spheres I guess and is the basis of mana since you can change mana nodes with it.

@Kael: so force is basically like wielding power or taking command? I know it's not a real clear definition though.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Some spheres may agree in this example. Oghma (metamagic, which represents knowledge) and Lugus (Sun, which represents truth and revelation) get along very well even though they are gods of different alignment.

So, what others spheres agree/gods are friendly to each other and which ones don't get along? (Especially despite differing alignments)


It seems like Kilmorph (neutral, but awfully close to good) and Mulcarn (evil, but close to neutral) are both very traditional, and would generally get along. (Although not so much during the Age of Ice, when he put her Dwarves in danger.)

We already know that Sucellus and Nantusualta
get along very well. I assume Amathaon and Cernunnos fall in this same group.

Mammon and Esus always seemed very close to me, as do Aeron and Camulos and Sirona and Lugus. But these pairs are less interesting since their alignments are the same.

I imagine that Junil and Sirona don't see often eye to eye. We all know what the Order thinks of Mercy.

 

[Darksaber1]

Ya, Kael, I think I get what you mean(note THINK). Creation is a really bother some sphere, because only The One and Agares have the power of Creation, so would my guess that it would let someone assemble/craft something from raw material just by thinking about it, or am I way off.
I am always willing to learn.

 

[smjjames]

I would imagine Aeron and Kilmorph don't get along too well since his angel went rogue and decided to rampage through her territory. Even though at that time he had agreed to the compact and agreed to strip Odio of his aura, basically disowning Odio, allowing Kilmorph to imprision Odio.

 

[Kael]

So, what others spheres agree/gods are friendly to each other and which ones don't get along? (Especially despite differing alignments)

It seems like Kilmorph (neutral, but awfully close to good) and Mulcarn (evil, but close to neutral) are both very traditional, and would generally get along. (Although not so much during the Age of Ice, when he put her Dwarves in danger.)

We already know that Sucellus and Nantusualta
get along very well. I assume Amathaon and Cernunnos fall in this same group.

Mammon and Esus always seemed very close to me, as do Aeron and Camulos and Sirona and Lugus. But these pairs are less interesting since their alignments are the same.

I imagine that Junil and Sirona don't see often eye to eye. We all know what the Order thinks of Mercy.

Yeah, Sirona and Junil don't get along.

Somewhat interestingly Nantosuelta's archangel is Splendor. Here is the entry for Splendor from the Design Grid:

"Splendor is always clad in blue and yellow, and typically carries a golden lantern. He pursues his own agenda and is rarely on missions for Nantosuelta. Unlike the other Curator's who have split from their lords Nantosuelta has no problem with his independance. Splendor has no love for strict obediance and delights in messing with Junil's strict plans, but never to the point of causing damage."

So even the archangels have their own problems with the gods (and vise-versa). Mulcarn and Kilmorph are a great example of gods that share a very similiar ideology but find themselves at odds. Their concern isn't really about the Age of Ice, the dwarves survived it better than anyone (some didn't even know it happened), but that Mulcarn has decided to turn against the One and Kilmorph abides her station.

Bhall and Camulos are closely aligned. Bhall used to be closely aligned with Junil. Junil and Camulos may have dramatically different ways of reaching their goals, but the goals themselves are often more similiar than they suspect.

Sucellus is close with Nantosuelta and Cernunnos and well respected by all the gods (they all hold Nemed in reverence for his sacrifice and view Sucellus as Nemed reborn). Sucellus is one of the few gods that can meet with Agares in his hell without warfare.

Sirona was once the closest to Agares, and the most dissappointed by his fall. She sincerly believes he can be redeemed, which often puts her at odds with the more militant good/neutral gods. Many of the others view her like a sweet little sister, nice enough but her opinion doesn't really matter.

Amathaon and Tali get along well. Amathaon is the god of inspiration, birth, and anything new. Tali is a god without any consideration for the past or the future. He is a god of the moment. Some say he isnt far from the god of chaos (the Balseraphs love Tali), but Camulos is truly unpredictable and Tali is completly predictable. Tali will always be late, Tali will never think ahead, his actions are frustrating and short sighted, but they aren't chaotic. Needless to say Kilmorph hates Tali.

 

[smjjames]

What about Danalin (even though he is in a coma right now) and Tali? They are both unpredictable in thier own way and like Tali, thier worshippers probably rarely stay in one place. Danalin's would be less nomadic than Tali's, but since ships rely on the wind to travel, I'm sure they would also revere Tali to an extent.

The two probably have a good working relationship so to speak.

Also, what is this design grid you're talking about?

 

[Darksaber1]

This Thread's turned abit into a thread on the personal relationships between the angels, but I suppsoe it's relevent.

 

[smjjames]

lol, yea. Still, this IS the FFH lore section.

Also, the name of Bhall's angel, Brigit the Shining, might imply a relationship (or past relationship now that she fell) that was pretty good. Also, the tier one sun spell, scorch is pretty close to blaze, the only real exception is that it doesn't cause fires, but they both use heat.

So the Sun sphere and Fire sphere are closely related.

Following the traditional opposing elements (earth, air, fire, water), I'm certain Bhall and Danalin hated each other since water douses fire.

Concerning Danalin, any plans on having him wake up out of the coma? Although that would mean the complete extinguishment of OO, messing up the entire religion setup that we have.

 

[Corlis]

I'm kind of surprised to hear that Bhall and Junil would have seen eye-to-eye prior to her fall, since she embodies change, which doesn't seem terribly law-like. There's a difference between law and stasis though, I suppose. But I still wonder why Camulos was both the god of peace and of chaos, as the two don't seem to match up too much.

As for Danalin being chaotic, I think that's more an effect of Hastur screwing with his head as he dreams. If Bhall and Tali lean towards chaotic behaviour, then we might suspect that Danalin might lean towards lawful behaviour in his normal state, like Kilmorph; prior to the death of the Aifons, maybe the seas were more calm and peaceful.

 

[A_Hamster]

Concerning Danalin, any plans on having him wake up out of the coma? Although that would mean the complete extinguishment of OO, messing up the entire religion setup that we have.

Hey, religious schism would be a good source of conflict for a scenario or linked series of scenarios, but Kael and Team FFH probably already have (at the least) some skeletal ideas for the scenarios listed but presently unavailable.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, it has been stated that Danalin and Tali were close.

While Danalin and Bhall didn't necessarily get along very well, they are not archenemies. Bhall's opposite was Mulcarn, not Bhall. (It isn't really water that extinguishes fire anyway, but the fact that it blocks access to air and that its evaporation cools the temperature.) It has been stated that Danalin wasn't very involved in the godswar. I think he was the only truly neutral elemental angel (although no elemental angel had an extreme alignment). I might be inclined to make him very slightly good, if only to draw a contrast with his nightmares. (Danalin isn't in a coma, he is just asleep and doesn't want to wake up to face a world without Aifons. Bhall was in a coma, but she is wide awake now.)





I'm pretty sure that Kael had once said that most of the Angels who (like Brigit) refused to fall with Bhall defected to other gods, most of them to Lugus. The current history though seems to say they were all destroyed. I like the old way better. Having surviving fire angels of all alignments helped explain why fire was so easily controlled.


I almost said that Sirona and Agares got along (after all, the spirit 2 spell is really Agares original sphere), but figured that the huge alignment difference (in my mind, Sirona is clearly the most good) might be a problem. It does seem appropriate for her to still be trying to redeem him though.

Why is Pelian called "the Suffering"?

Why is Lugus's Archangel, Baelious, the angel of Fortune? that seems kind of unrelated to the sun sphere.

(they all hold Nemed in reverence for his sacrifice and view Sucellus as Nemed reborn)

Why do they view him as Nemed reborn? Just because he now has his sphere. Don't they know the real Nemed is still around, and remember Sucellus from before he died? Also, do all the gods revere Nemed, even the evil ones who want to destroy humanity?








I view Amathaon as basically the ultimate Genius. I mean this mostly in the ancient Roman sense, as a fertility spirit/guardian angel involved in both sexual reproduction and more metaphorical types of fertility, such as art.


Hmm...does the Mind 2 spell (Inspiration) mean that Amathon and Mammon are/were close?

For some reason your description of Tali made me think of Captain Jack Sparrow explaining why you can always trust a dishonest man, since you know he will be dishonest, but never know when an honest man will do something really stupid.


On a side note, when I looked up Shuet I noticed that the Egyptian god of Air (Shu) is about as unlike Tali as possible.