Mandatory Abortion

[skyskipper]

OK.... Penvzilla, are you really from the U.S.A.? Because I don't know of anyone (at least that I know that's American) has that philosophy. It's a good UTOPIAN thought, but.........NO! I believe people should be college educated, have a steady income, and married before they have children. BUT unfortunately in our world that exists people aren't mature and responsible enough to realize this and act upon it. Facts have to be looked at first and then ideas and conclusions can be made. Don't be blind. Don't say anything that you can't back up logically. And everyone's opinions should be respected as long as the opinionator (person with the opinion) respects others' opinions.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

We all know this was a bit of an experiment now, but I still have an interesting thought IMNSHO:

Maybe it is not the individual parents that are the problem but how we have parenting setup today in our society. In tribal culture (today and in our ancestral pasts), people have sex very naturally whenever they are ready (even if it's close to puberty), and if children are produced, the elders across the tribe (maybe not the extreme elders) raise them.

In our society today, you'd better have the maturity and the income and both parents, etc., etc., etc. In tribal culture, they don't have to worry about any of that. If "immature kids" have some fun and then have a baby, that's OK because the child belongs to the entire tribe, who cares for and raises and teaches it. Even if they are not "kids", if 2 people become biological father and mother, they don't need to have or generate their own resources apart from the tribe to raise the child in relative exclusion. It also doesn't impact the child SO much if a biological parent leaves or dies, etc. (of course, it does to some degree).

It also conforms with the natural human biology. What if we look at that as the guide? We're sexually aroused and interested at least by our teen years ... what point was it supposed to serve to evolve or be created that way if we're supposed to wait or "hold it" until several years later? [Hmm, that gets too close to a big discussion we already had.] And what methods do parents use today to stop the biology from becoming reality? I doubt most of them are mentally healthy. What if most sexual dysfunction and sexual crime grows out of distorted sexual ideas from this period of life?

Anyway, I digress. My point was that we don't live in tribes anymore. We live relatively isolated in little boxes, many times not even knowing the people that live in the boxes immediately around us. Maybe THAT is the biggest problem. (Not that I have a proposal for changing it.)

It literally does take a village to raise a child.
Spiff

 

[BorderPatrol]

Spiffy you raise a very good point here!

When I stop and look at this patern it really scares me. The closer we get drawn together as a world technologicallywise the more isolated we become as individuals. What scares me that it just keeps getting more and more just like that, more and more rapidly.

What will happen when it gets to a point where everyone has absolutely no emotional connection to anyone else?

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[Caligastia]

Magnus and others-

The reality is that the percentage of mentally and physically disabled is going up and our overall IQ is going down.

Instead of implementing a eugenics program of incentives and disincentives in order to rectify the problem of dysgenics, most governments are making it worse by subsidizing the reproduction of the least-productive segment of society, and taxing heavily the most productive segment.

Farmers and breeders have utilized the principle of "select the best" for their crops, livestock, and pets, and this has given us bountiful crops of every variety, high-yield milk cows, fast, beautiful, and gentle horses. Yet we take far less care when it comes to human beings, and in effect, we "select the worst." It would be unconscionable to breed stupid, sickly, and vicious dogs -- surely it's at least as cruel to do this to human beings.

The word "eugenics" conjures up draconian images of Nazis and death camps, but even a cursory examination of the issues shows that this association is unwarranted. Eugenics has been practiced since ancient times, and in the 20th century Sweden had a eugenics program that lasted for 40 years (Broberg and Roll- Hansen, 1996). In fact, a total of 28 countries practiced eugenics in the 20th century, and one country, Germany, committed genocide, so despite Marxist propaganda to the contrary, it's apparent that no causal association can be drawn between eugenics and mass murder.

You argue that we will never agree upon which traits we want, so therefore, the entire enterprise is hopeless. But this argument is utterly without merit. It's perfectly predictable that we will choose health, beauty, intelligence, talent, courage, kindness, and honesty for our children because these are universally valued traits. All over the world parents value them today, just as parents valued them a hundred years ago, and a thousand years ago.

Ask yourself this question: Would you rather be a healthy, smart, honorable person with number of problems to overcome, or chronically ill, ********, or a psychopath with no other problems? I think everyone--past, present, and future--would make the same choice. Biological integrity is the number one priority for individuals, and for our species.

Which is worse? Restricting the reproductive rights of a few people now, or allowing countless future generations to suffer physical and mental torment?

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Calig-

Just because we (as a society) do it to other species doesn't mean it's right, and certainly doesn't mean we would want it to be done to us. For your cow & wheat analogy to work, a higher species that utterly controls us would have to be selectively breeding us, and we wouldn't like that one bit. I do see the point you're trying to make, but this analogy is "close but no cigar."

And I do even see the good you are seeking to accomplish with this idea. I see you are trying to produce the best of humanity instead of reproducing the worst. A noble goal. But this may be a case where supreme logic and lack of sensitivity for the human experience are problematic.

What your suggestion does not take into consideration is "why are we here?" Is the purpose of life to breed a better race? Personally, I doubt it. I believe we have souls and I believe they come from somewhere (what some might call Heaven or the spirit world). I believe we come here to live in the physical realm for a reason & a purpose. What that reason & purpose is is naturally an unending debate.

My very personal thought is that there is nothing but perfection in the spirit world (which is nice but gets boring after an eternity), and that we come here to experience imperfection ... to challenge ourselves with situations we would never encounter in a perfect non-physical realm. To grow from these experiences. To learn from them. To experience physically in the body, the exhilaration of something close to the perfection we can't help but experience without the body. But that's just me.

Regardless of what I think, it is generally accepted that every person/soul is sacred. Our freedom to live as we choose, while doing to others what we would have them do to us, is paramount and makes the purported perfection of our species irrelevant. If we're all average, that's good enough to experience life's gifts. I don't see the human experience spiraling down into the toilet. And none of us should be treated like cattle.

Spiff <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/scan.gif" border=0>

[This message has been edited by SpacemanSpiff (edited June 08, 2001).]

 

[stellar converter]

abortion is stupid, murder, and immoral. penv, i still like you

. i know you are half joking

. go play some chess. that might relieve some of your stress...

 

[FearlessLeader2]

I have stayed out of this debate because I simply do not discuss abortion. HOWEVER, this is really not about abortion, it is about fascism, so...

Originally posted by Caligastia:
Penzvilla raises a good point, but I think his rules are not really workable.
I think this would be a better policy:

penzvila raises a horrid scene of fascist brutality, the likes of which sickens me to the very core. He proposes a genocide by eugenics against the poor and 'undesirable' elements of society.

Originally posted by Caligastia:
-Government gives a $2000 bonus to anyone 18-25 that gets sterilized.
-Government gives a $200 bonus to the top 1% of Intelligent, Healthy people to give sperm or eggs.
-Government gives a $2000 bonus to any woman who gets In Vetro Fertilization from the top 1%

Your 'kinder, gentler' proposal replaces the guns with dollar bills, but is the same in principle.

Originally posted by Caligastia:
Results:
-Government saves money on Welfare
-Government saves money on Health care
-Government saves money on Criminal justice system
-Lower taxes for everyone
-More intelligent and healthy workforce
-Economy booms
-Nobody gets hurt, everyone that participates is a volunteer
-Future generations have better genetics
-Everyone wins

Actual results:
Rapid, short-term economic boom, along with several medical advances stemming from fetal tissue research(which we all know will get wedged into this horrific proposal somehow).

Long-term effect? 40-60 years down the road we have a nation of geriatrics, with a small population of your genetic 'uber-kinder' that is far too small to support our vast infrastructure. As a result, mass immigration will have to occur, turning your economic boom into a sweet memory, as inflation runs away like a greenhouse effect. A divide between the rich and poor develops that will make the current one look like equality.

Human life, devalued into nothingness by the sterilization/abortion program of two generations ago, becomes worthless, and murder, suicide, and all manner of crimes become pandemic, and either a police state ensues, or total anarchy as basic human services break down. Millions starve, burn, or die in rioting, and plagues sweep through the survivors.

Originally posted by Caligastia:
Explanation:
*SNIP* The only SHORT-TERM effect this Humane and Compassionate Eugenics Program will have on the average person is lower taxes and a booming economy. The greatest impact of this program will be on future generations.

Well, you got one thing right. It would either turn the world into a post-apocalyptic nightmare, or a fascist's wet dream.

Either way, count me out. Waging a eugenics war on the disenfranchised is not my way of solving poverty and world hunger. Find the Democrats/Republicans debate for that. My way will work, given time. Your way will look like it is working right away, then show its true colors around the time my plan was bearing permanent fruit for all to enjoy.

[This message has been edited by FearlessLeader2 (edited June 10, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by FearlessLeader2 (edited June 10, 2001).]

 

[penvzila]

Originally posted by stellar converter:
abortion is stupid, murder, and immoral. penv, i still like you<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>. i know you are half joking<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/wink.gif" border=0>. go play some chess. that might relieve some of your stress...<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/eek.gif" border=0>

Abortion is as much murder as the death penalty is. Abortion should always be available to women/men/couples as a viable alternative to creating another human being. (no pun intended.)

PS: I like chess. Guess Ill have to start playing in the chess forum.

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[Dark X 101]

Abortion is murder. although I am a Pro-Choicer, I think abortion is murder and should only be used when neccesary (I.e., penvzila having a kid.).

You used five twice! WWSPS? (WHAT WOULD SOUTH PARK SAY?)

Kyle: OH MY GOD! YOU USED 5 TWICE!
Stan: YOU BASTURD!
Cartman: OH GOD GUYS! I THINK I GOTTA FART!
Kenny: Asdgshbgbg! AHHHHH!
Timmy: TIMMMA!

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"Evil. That which one believes of others. It is a sin to believe evil of others, but it is seldom a mistake."
~H.L. Mencken

 

[penvzila]

Seriously, there shouldnt really be mandatory abortions, but we do need a lot more of them. Maybe there could be tax breaks for people who choose not to concieve, or get temporarily sterilized. More on this tommorow, it's 0241 here in Beaverton.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by penvzila:
Abortion is as much murder as the death penalty is.

I cannot strongly enough agree. Oh dear, I've gone and embroiled myself in an abortion debate.

Yes, abortion is murder. The only case in which I can openly condone it is when the LIFE of the mother is at stake.

In the so-rare-as-to-be-not-worth-addressing-but-nonetheless-always-brought-up-by-pro-abortionists cases of rape and incest, I feel that the woman should be allowed to choose whether or not to abort. I would heartily recommend counselling first.