Manhattan Project

[CocoMunkee]

I always felt that MP wonder should be a small wonder that every nation must build to make nukes. I always hated it when it was built and then everyone had the weapons. What u think?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I agree, but I think espionage should be able to get the benefits of the Manhattan Project without having to build it (steal nuclear secrets, or some option like that).

 

[AA-battery]

I've always wondered why the AIs always rush to build it when it benefits everyone. But then I take advantage of that by building the UN as fast as possible.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Ummm, guys, they changed this in C3:C! Now, it IS a small wonder, and only grants Nukes to the nation who builds it!
Just thought you ought to know!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[alva848]

Are you sure about that? The Apollo project is a small wonder, don't think the MP is.

 

[ybbor]

Ummm, guys, they changed this in C3:C! Now, it IS a small wonder, and only grants Nukes to the nation who builds it!
Just thought you ought to know!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

i believe you are wrong.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You believe right Ybbor! My apologies, but I was convinced that I heard this was being changed in C3:C-but I checked it this morning and found that it wasn't! It can be edited to be a small wonder, but I'm not sure if that changes who it benefits! If it still benefits everyone, then I support 100% the idea of making the Manhatten Project a small wonder (renamed 'Nuclear Bomb Test' or some such) and allowing it to benefit only one nation!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[clintonio]

Yea same here because i usually end up with 200 or so ICBMs by the end of a level and launched over 1000 and well the computers start to nuke me while thats unfair as i built the manhatten project well i always get integrated defence too , to stop them hitting some of my largers cities dsome times as the only time it worked was when they wer about to hit my capital that had over 50 ICBMs on it and 500 trooops!

 

[Theoden]

Making the manhatten project a small wonder just like apollo program? That's an idea i fully support.
Just because the US discovered nuclear weapons doesn't mean the russians immediately gets the same knowledge.

 

[Louis XXIV]

But the Russians didn't have to develop their own program, they stole the secrets from the US.

 

[CurtSibling]

They did have their own program, as did the Germans.

A series of stolen notes do not constitute an atom bomb.

A dedicated infrastructure and massed war effort does.
(EG=USA in 1944, and USSR in 1948)

Regardless what Hollywood tells you.

 

[bkwrm79]

I think it should be a Small Wonder.

Ideally, every new Manhattan Project after the first should be slightly cheaper, as the technology becomes easier to acquire with every nuclear-capable nation.

 

[Jon Shafer]

It's a great wonder so that the game isn't so imbalancing - a player far ahead who builds a MP small wonder may be the only one with nukes for a long time, giving him an opportunity to wreak havoc on the world. Making it a wonder that gives EVERYONE nukes means that it's more risky and balances out the choice of building it - because you give nukes to your enemies as well as to yourself.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

That is the dumbest reason to make it a Great Wonder Trip! As has been stated in regards to micromanagement, this deals with the symptoms of the snowball effect, without curing the underlying disease. Fact is, if they can reduce or virtually eliminate the snowball effect, then it will simply make our argument for MP being a small wonder even MORE compelling!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Well, I'm not the one who makes the rules...

It's really not a symptom of snowballing as much as nukes themselves are something that is completely different from anything else in Civ. There is no other unit which has the potential to do sooo much damage to an enemy. Since there is no MAD in Civ it basically gives players free reign to nuke what they like, Great or Small Wonder - however, it does make the decision to go for nukes more risky. People have already stated that they often don't bother building it - mission accomplished. Sort of.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

First up, Trip, I didn't mean to make it sound like an attack on you-sorry about that! Second, though, that fact does pretty much NOTHING to balance the game, because the ability to have nukes is not just tied to the Manhatten Project. It is also tied to the possession of uranium and aluminium, and having the technology required to build nukes. So, theoretically, a player could be so far ahead that he builds the MP-thus getting the ability to make nukes-and is able to build heaps of nuclear weapons before his neighbours even have rocketry! Of course, to ensure that they never DO get rocketry, this player simply nukes his neighbours back into the Stone Age-so much for balance !
A much better system would be to make nuclear weapons far, far more deadly-for both the target and, ulimately the user too; increase, exponentially, the reputation penalty for their use (and actually make such rep losses MEAN something!!!) and, ultimately, significantly increase the chances of having more than one nation being advanced enough to be capable of building the MP Small Wonder, at around the same time, in any given game. Also, of course, give the ability to sell or trade nuclear weapons to smaller nations who have not yet built their own 'Manhatten Project' yet !
All of these things would allow MP to be turned into a small wonder, whilst actually retaining-and increasing-the danger of both having and using your nuclear arsenal!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Bast]

Well looking at the real world situation, nuclear weapons were available to all nations (as long as they had the resources) after the Manhattan Project, so the game is right in that respect. But there should be incentive for the civ who builds it to build it.

So how about that it grants 5 nuclear missiles for free or something like that?

I mean you'd only build the MP if you want to build missiles right? So why not give that as an incentive to build.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Not true, Bast! Nations with nuclear weapons today either recieved that capability from more powerful allies who did all the leg work (very rare, if ever), or they had to build and successfully test their own nuclear devices before they were 'accepted' as a true nuclear power. Just look at Britain, India, Pakistan, Russia and the USA. All of these nations possess nuclear capability of some kind only AFTER conducting their own versions of the 'Manhatten Project' as represented by exhaustive R & D and, finally, testing of the finished product-something only a Small Wonder could represent.
Also, Australia and several other nations possess, the raw resources IN SPADES, yet we do not have any nuclear weapons!!
That said, though, I think that the first nation to build the equivalent of TMP small wonder should recieve two free 'atom bomb' units (loadable onto bombers or transport planes) which are not as powerful as Tac Nukes, but sort of represent the two nuclear devices created by the US out of the Trinity Tests.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Any industrialized country has the capability to create nuclear weapons... they simply don't. Germany or Japan could have them in only a year or two if they really cared enough. Even South Africa had a few nukes a while back, but they dismantled them.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Then why did Britain invest so much time and money into testing dozens of atomic weapons in the Australian outback?