Manufactories

[ElliotS]

Hm... What if we give the Manufactories some extra if you put them on top of resources? I mean... I know recently some improvements (such as pastures or quarries) were buffed to avoid putting GP improvements on top of them.

But with Manufactories... I don't know. It seems right to do so, to increase the "production", the same way you get more and from Towns, if you put them on top of Roads and Trade Routes.

What about +2 from Bonus Resources, +2 from Strategic Resources, and +3 from Luxury Resources? That way, you have some flexibility, depending on what you might need. And it shouldn't be too difficult for the AI to understand it, would it?

Again, just an idea.

Good idea, but probably needs new code and AI logic.

 

[RAuer2]

The wiki has it at +5 of the appropriate yield; the wiki can fall out of date but I don't recall that tenet being changed anytime recent.

My memory was out of date. I wrote that reply while I was away from home and my copy of Civ. Now that I am back home, I loaded my last game to check and sure enough, New Deal is +5 and not +4.

I reloaded that game with IGE and popped a GE. On a desert hill, road and no resources, Renaissance Era (so I have Metal Casting already), The tooltip shows the tile at a base 2, the manufactory at +7, Combined Arms and Fertilizer both at +2, and New Deal at +5. So, total would be 18. Add the factory modifier and it gets to 20. Add the WC resolution Historical Landmarks and now 21. It could be even more, if the city has a hydro plant or wind plant and the manufactory is on a tile that qualifies for the boost.

I know these tiles take a while to scale up, but they can get quite nice. On the other hand, removing New Deal lops off quite a bit, so it makes sense that Order and Autocracy civs would value this improvement less than Freedom civs would.

 

[infidel88]

Even AI knows manufacturies are useless


hosting zdjęć na forum

 

[RAuer2]

In my games, I have never seen what is in that screenshot (a GP tile improvement on an owned tile that is unworkable due to distance). My best guess is that there used to be a city on the nearby silk, but maybe Atilla basically exiled that poor engineer to an island prison?

Let's sum up the complaints about the manufactory and see if we can agree on something to propose to G. From the posts in the thread, it seems like the manufactory is generally used to:

• Create a high production tile in a production deficient city
• Qualify for a later event (windmills)

It seems that the manufactory is either viewed as:

• Okay as is, perhaps underrated, or
• Not much better than a mine, and therefore lackluster since a manufactory costs a great person

Suggestions I saw in this thread included:

• A small production buff
• Adding the same bonus that towns receive regarding roads and trade routes
• Adding a small bonus if the manufactory is on top of a resource

The mine comparison
I loaded the last game I played. I am the Zulu and it is late Renaissance (Navigation and Metallurgy are not yet researched). Ulundi has a manufactory (plains, hill, 9 hammers) and a mine (plains, hill, 6 hammers). Neither the manufactory or mine is on a resource. So far, manufactory vs mine is 9 to 6, so a 50% jump.

The terrain tooltip shows that the mine has two +2 boosts coming at (Combined Arms and Fertilizer), so it will end up at 13. The mine has two +1 boosts coming at Steam Power and Combustion, so it will end up at 8. So 13 to 8 and still about a 50% jump.

This... doesn't look bad, at least so far. 50% is a nice boost, even if the raw numbers of 9 vs 6 are a small "real" difference. The New Deal tenet, Historical Landmarks resolution, and the boost from a factory in the city are not factored in yet.

Next I compared the manufactories in Ulundi to nearby cities have a few other GP tile improvements.

Towns
A nearby city has two Towns. Both tiles are flat plains, have a city connection road, and a trade route passes over them. Those tiles each produce 5 food, 3 hammers, and 8 gold. The terrain tooltip shows boosts of +2 gold (Refrigeration), +2 food (Railroad), and +2 hammers and +2 gold (railroad improvement added to the tile), so in the end 7 food, 5 hammers, 12 gold.

Holy Site
A nearby city has five Holy Sites. All five tiles are flat desert. All five produce 5 hammers, 5 culture, 8 faith, and 3 tourism. The 5 hammers are from Hero Worship (the Great Altar has been built). The terrain tooltip shows boosts of +4 culture (Archaeology) and +4 tourism (Flight), so it will end up as 5 hammers, 9 culture, 8 faith, and 7 tourism.

Conclusion
When I compare a manufactory to a town or holy site, I think I see the lackluster that others are mentioning. Hammers are a powerful yield though, especially when multiple manufactories are placed in the same city and I don't want to underestimate that effect. For that reason, I would suggest a small adjustment or no adjustment.

If there is an adjustment, and keeping in mind no new code, then I am in favor of asking G what he thinks of adding to the manufactory the same bonus that villages and towns receive regarding roads and trade routes. I like the idea of thinking about where to place a manufactory in the same way I think of where to place a town.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

There is one more thing that strongly affects the viability of Manufactories: Opportunity cost.
The alternative mode of the Engeneer ist just much stronger than those of the other site generators.

Great Merchants provide money. Meh. Early game it is nice, but you might get more if you plant a well placed town (plus it might help the happiess of that city. And late game, money doesn't matter much anyway. I see no reason not to go for the improvement.

Great Scientist: You will use them for techs eventually, but the way it works ist such that you want to have decent number of Academies first, and only spend the last ones to skip a couple of turns to victories. There is also less competion, because you can get much more free scientists than you can get engeneers.

Great prophet: Of course you spend the first two on founding and enhancing, but then? Unless the opposing religion is already deeply enfranchised, in which case you are probably best served in letting it be altogether, you can get the effect much cheaper by using missionaries.

Engeneers however - getting a crucial wonder gives you a permanet bonus, that cannot be substuted by any ather effect (the production boost). It is just a much stronger incentive to use the instant compared to the other improvement generators.

 

[Moi Magnus]

There is one more thing that strongly affects the viability of Manufactories: Opportunity cost.
The alternative mode of the Engeneer ist just much stronger than those of the other site generators.

Great Merchants provide money. Meh. Early game it is nice, but you might get more if you plant a well placed town (plus it might help the happiess of that city. And late game, money doesn't matter much anyway. I see no reason not to go for the improvement.

Great Scientist: You will use them for techs eventually, but the way it works ist such that you want to have decent number of Academies first, and only spend the last ones to skip a couple of turns to victories. There is also less competion, because you can get much more free scientists than you can get engeneers.

Great prophet: Of course you spend the first two on founding and enhancing, but then? Unless the opposing religion is already deeply enfranchised, in which case you are probably best served in letting it be altogether, you can get the effect much cheaper by using missionaries.

Engeneers however - getting a crucial wonder gives you a permanet bonus, that cannot be substuted by any ather effect (the production boost). It is just a much stronger incentive to use the instant compared to the other improvement generators.

First, Engeneers bonus to prod has been significantly nerfed, so it is no longer "that stronger" than other instand bonuses.
Second, Great Merchant provide WLTKD in all cities, which is far from irrelevant because it can "unlock" cities that were fixed on unobtainable luxuries.

 

[infidel88]

The mine comparison
I loaded the last game I played. I am the Zulu and it is late Renaissance (Navigation and Metallurgy are not yet researched). Ulundi has a manufactory (plains, hill, 9 hammers) and a mine (plains, hill, 6 hammers). Neither the manufactory or mine is on a resource. So far, manufactory vs mine is 9 to 6, so a 50% jump.

Early on you can get 250+ from an Engineer. If difference vs mine would be 3 you gain about 100 turns of production difference from insta using engineer. Plus bonuses from wonder you're insta-building. Even if it would be +1 or whatever. In a snowbally game, much like in real life, there is no discussion that yields now are worth more than potential yields in 100 turns.

 

[RAuer2]

Early on you can get 250+ from an Engineer. If difference vs mine would be 3 you gain about 100 turns of production difference from insta using engineer. Plus bonuses from wonder you're insta-building. Even if it would be +1 or whatever. In a snowbally game, much like in real life, there is no discussion that yields now are worth more than potential yields in 100 turns.

Long term benefit vs short term benefit, pretty much. Both have value.
​

Engeneers however - getting a crucial wonder gives you a permanet bonus, that cannot be substuted by any ather effect (the production boost). It is just a much stronger incentive to use the instant compared to the other improvement generators.

I love wonders. A lot. I get it. That said, it depends on the wonder, the civ, and the game situation. I mean, if I am positive that I am going to lose a wonder race and I think the wonder is critical to winning the game, then sure, in that situation popping the engineer is better.

 

[Bromar1]

What if manufactories gave production to all factories instead of the other way around?

 

[chicorbeef]

I honestly think the best solution is to cut the potency of the rush ability in half and increase the effect of each manufactory to make it 50% more effective (multiplicatively). Or something along those lines.

 

[tu_79]

You are comparing manufactories to mines? Why don't you compare them to engineer specialists?
The usual problem is not mines being worked before manufactories. It's manufactories not being worked because the city prefers to work food for specialists.

 

[Workerspam]

You are comparing manufactories to mines? Why don't you compare them to engineer specialists?
The usual problem is not mines being worked before manufactories. It's manufactories not being worked because the city prefers to work food for specialists.

I think that used to be the case. Now mines and manufacturies are worth as much or more than the engineering specialist while costing less food. About only reason to work an engineer over a production tile in the early to mid game is for the GE points. Late game the choice depends on how many bonuses to specialists you've accumulated, but at that point it's specialists vs. any non food tile.

 

[Stalker0]

I honestly think the best solution is to cut the potency of the rush ability in half and increase the effect of each manufactory to make it 50% more effective (multiplicatively). Or something along those lines.

I disagree. All that will do is make the rush ability pointless. For example, it is silly to bolt the great scientist when you first get one. The Academy is just better and leads to better scaling down the road. In terms of total science you will reap the benefits of Academy planning pretty quickly.

With the great engineer, and either rushing wonder or not. It’s not about hammers in that case it’s about acquiring it wonder benefit for the rest of the game.

I think that used to be the case. Now mines and manufacturies are worth as much or more than the engineering specialist while costing less food. About only reason to work an engineer over a production tile in the early to mid game is for the GE points. Late game the choice depends on how many bonuses to specialists you've accumulated, but at that point it's specialists vs. any non food tile.

They are still great for coastal or island locations where production is scarce. Being able to convert my abundance of food into hammers temporarily is a great use of engineers for a time

 

[Workerspam]

They are still great for coastal or island locations where production is scarce. Being able to convert my abundance of food into hammers temporarily is a great use of engineers for a time

Oh, I agree 100%. When I settle new cities with Pioneers I'll work the Engineer (and only the Engineer until my city grows enough) for the extra production since it will beat out any unimproved tiles. Engineers are still useful but more situational than they used to be thanks to the improvements to mines.

 

[Chandler]

I disagree. All that will do is make the rush ability pointless. For example, it is silly to bolt the great scientist when you first get one. The Academy is just better and leads to better scaling down the road. In terms of total science you will reap the benefits of Academy planning pretty quickly.

Ok, so here is the thing. Even though we have a happiness system that values what every city is producing of each yield, there are two yields that are, for the most part, self-city centered: and .

So...

• With Academies, you get . And that's great, because it'll help your empire to progress faster through the tech tree.
• With Towns, you get (and and to a "lesser" extent, I know), which helps you buy anything and anywhere. So, an empire-wide benefit.
• With Holy Sites, you get , , , and whatever yield you decided with your Founder Belief. Once again, empire-wide.
• Not sure if I should take into account Embassies, as the reward is less about the yields, and more about the votes in the World Congress.

You can benefit from all of these GPTI at an empire-wide level, even though they will be less impactful the more cities you have.

And then we have Manufactories, that give mainly , which is very nice, but "only" for the city where it was built. It's hard to perceive an empire-wide benefit with it. Sure, it helps you to build things faster there, which might give you or earlier. But... It's not the same. There is also an Event related to them, that will give you a production boost empire-wide with Windmills, but only if you play with events (which I do). On the other hand, you have the option of getting a Wonder instantly. And, most of them, give and empire-wide benefit. Not to mention that you are denying one Wonder to your enemies.

So I think the key would be to make the Manufactories have an empire-wide benefit, that should benefit the city where it'd be built the most, but also the other ones.

One idea: keep Manufactory's yields somewhat "low" early, but give 1 to every city connected to your Capital for each Manufactory you have, wherever they might be built. This would include the city where it was built. And I'd also include the Capital, if possible, even if the Manufactory wasn't build there. I don't know if it is codeable or not, though.

 

[ElliotS]

@Gazebo this discussion has gotten a bit scattershot. Can you give us your current opinion to help this progress?

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo this discussion has gotten a bit scattershot. Can you give us your current opinion to help this progress?

Upcoming changelog:

Improvements
        Manufactory: base: +1p, +1p on each tech upgrade
        Town: now scales WLTKD length instead of gold (+1 turn per owned Town)

 

[ElliotS]

Upcoming changelog:

Improvements
        Manufactory: base: +1p, +1p on each tech upgrade
        Town: now scales WLTKD length instead of gold (+1 turn per owned Town)

Thanks, looking forward to it! I like it as is.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

How many +1p tech upgrades are you planning for manufactories?

Loving the WLTKD length scaling!

 

[pineappledan]

Manufactory has 3 tech upgrades currently:

    ('IMPROVEMENT_MANUFACTORY', 'TECH_METAL_CASTING', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 2),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MANUFACTORY', 'TECH_FERTILIZER', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 2),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MANUFACTORY', 'TECH_COMBINED_ARMS', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 2),

All of those will be boosted to +3.