Map Expansion over Eras

[uppi]

When I've thought about this possibility in terms of how I would do it, the reason that came to mind was, "because that way you don't have to slow down the turns by simulating everything for the areas that aren't discoverable yet." Since, as you mention, otherwise map expansion over eras can be figuratively achieved in existing iterations - if nothing else, by preventing travel across oceans until a certain technology is discovered.

The CPU cycles saved are one thing, but there is also the outcome of those simulations. The AI running unchecked on a continent might produce silly things so that the new world is not fun to engage with. The terra maps always had the tendency to be overrun with barbarians, because noone was there to keep them in check. And you could not really change that without changing the balance on the starting continent as well. Or the minor civs could have killed each other and razed each others cities, so there is only one city state left.

By expanding the map, they can start with a blank slate and fill it with a predictable amount of stuff they want the player to encounter.

 

[Ornen]

They will expand to the full map on transition to the Exploration Era, and reveal later how the game will change (revolutions) on the transition to Modern Era

Rhye's and Fall 2 will be made complete with the first expansion, which introduces the Medieval Era in which the great ancient empires to fall to pieces

Trust

 

[DSYoungEsq]

Watching the videos put up on Youtube from the people who were invited to Firaxis to play Civ VII. According to boesthius, they did not get to play past the Age of Antiquity. So they didn't get to see the mechanics of switching to new civs, nor the concept of "literally expanding the map". I still have some doubts about how literal this expansion would be. And the whole age change thing makes me wonder what they will do with MP. After all, one of the delightful aspects to Civ VI was watching the change of eras in different civs (and listening to that change in their music!!). Figuring how to keep MP civs in earlier Ages with literal map expansions seems a bit dodgy. Not to mention the fact that, if the map literally expands, then are all civs at the start restricted to the limited map of antiquity? Does that mean a limit on starting number of civs to something like Civ and Civ II (seven)?

Seems to me that Europa Universalis IV handled this same idea of being able to "expand" the map much better through restrictions on crossing open seas until certain societal and technological advancements had been made. Always fun in that game to play as a New World country and have the Europeans suddenly arrive on your doorstep, with their fancy ships.

 

[Seek]

Potentially relevant: the economic legacy path golden age effect says "All of your cities from the previous age remain cities" (implying that city status changes somehow between eras)

 

[Takfloyd]

My interpetation is Civ never actually allowed "New World" mechanic, this is what this means to me, there will be some sort of New World mechanic now, which is kinda icky in some way, where colonization is the name of the game.

In Civ, the "other continent" wherever it was, would usually always be cramped, and actual colonization was never really possible with the exception of tiny sometimes useful island chains that were generated.

There have always been map modes that make the New World free of major civs, and as someone who always plays with those types of maps, this won't be anything new. Civ IV in particular had dedicated colonization/New World mechanics, where you could even, for example, play as Britain and create the United States as a new major civ by having your overseas colony become independent. Usually in that game the New World would have many large barbarian cities though, to be conquered for yourself of course since they're only uncivilized barbarians. That would have caused some drama if it was released today I'm sure.

 

[fraa Jad]

Potentially relevant: the economic legacy path golden age effect says "All of your cities from the previous age remain cities" (implying that city status changes somehow between eras)

I kind of expected that with the "choose the best accomplishments of you civilization from the previous era to keep" comment -- you don't lose your progress completely but in some way it's a new beginning.

 

[Seek]

In this interview with Ed Beech from Gamescom, he says "basically you jump forward a few hundred years in history" between the ages, that "a little more than half" of the map is available in the first age but they ensure that the maps have deep ocean to cut off the rest until the age of exploration and can cross those tiles. (Mostly cited from around the 11:00 mark)
So honestly seems not too dissimilar from past civs as long as you played on a continents map script.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

The CPU cycles saved are one thing, but there is also the outcome of those simulations. The AI running unchecked on a continent might produce silly things so that the new world is not fun to engage with. The terra maps always had the tendency to be overrun with barbarians, because noone was there to keep them in check. And you could not really change that without changing the balance on the starting continent as well. Or the minor civs could have killed each other and razed each others cities, so there is only one city state left.

By expanding the map, they can start with a blank slate and fill it with a predictable amount of stuff they want the player to encounter.

I'm thinking this is the route they're going down. That the AI adapts to the player and spawns in civilizations who are at least equally matched with the player. And not all civs will be loaded in at the start.

 

[TheGrayFox]

In this interview with Ed Beech from Gamescom, he says "basically you jump forward a few hundred years in history" between the ages, that "a little more than half" of the map is available in the first age but they ensure that the maps have deep ocean to cut off the rest until the age of exploration and can cross those tiles. (Mostly cited from around the 11:00 mark)
So honestly seems not too dissimilar from past civs as long as you played on a continents map script.

so the map literally expands every single era... they made every map a glorified terra script.....

 

[Navelgazer]

Honestly the way that the ages - and the shift from one to the next - is being described is just making me picture The Wire. How one season would go one, getting more and more intense with crises until it wrapped up maybe not neatly, but conclusively, fade to black. Fade up on the next season, it's the same characters, a bunch of new ones, a slightly different lens to view everything through, and a much bigger world.

 

[AriochIV]

It seems incredibly artificial and places considerable restriction on what kind of maps you can have. Another volley in the side of modding.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

I would hope it's not just invisible walls.

I would prefer a system where maybe your units can't traverse ocean in Antiquity and you can only travel so far from borders you control, simulating some sort of limited lines of communication/supply chains/etc. If you're conquering/expanding you could still make it pretty far in Antiquity (like Alexander the Great making it to India).

Once Age of Exploration hits, oceans open and how far you can travel from friendly borders (not just your own, but allies count as well) greatly expands, but it's still not infinite and can be expanded with outposts/ports of call.

Once the Modern Age hits it's movement without limits.

 

[dagriggstar]

I wonder if it's possible that you start a game, play through and like near the end of antiquity suddenly bang turns out you're a "new world" faction and a bunch of technologically advanced units are on your shores.
Or say, there's other continents but they are on the same level as you technologically

For multiplayer, can you start in different areas then when one human player reaches exploration, the game weaves all the continents together into a single map ?

Actually would the game "generate" the entire map, block out certain areas for certain factions, then run the game up to exploration, then do a second pass to fill the map in ?

What happens with wonders ? Can the errr "Unseen" players in antiquity build wonders, thus preventing you from building them yourself ?

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

I'm obviously open to having my mind changed, but I dislike the idea.

I like having the map be what it is from the start, and your unlocked technologies being a natural barrier to exploration and accessing the whole map, which already functioned fine. The idea that the world itself isn't set in stone and can just change isn't appealing and I have no idea how that will work with custom maps.

I also dislike it forcing certain landmasses to be uninhabited or only having independent states. Just because in real life the colonization of the Americas was a thing doesn't mean every potential planet has to have the same dynamic, and in real life, the Americas *did* have complex urban civilizations who are quite literally playable civilizations in game which were doing their own thing and competing against each other.

 

[BackseatTyrant]

I'm sorry, but I can't stop thinking of that Eddie Izzard bit about European colonizers acting like the Americas were this completely virgin continent.

 

[Seek]

I also dislike it forcing certain landmasses to be uninhabited or only having independent states. Just because in real life the colonization of the Americas was a thing doesn't mean every potential planet has to have the same dynamic, and in real life, the Americas *did* have complex urban civilizations who are quite literally playable civilizations in game which were doing their own thing and competing against each other.

I don't think that it's been said that the unexplored areas of the expanded map are uninhabited. I totally agree with this sentiment if that's the case though.

 

[RandV]

What I want to know is how this effects map scrips. Personally I've come to find you could 'explore' too much in early games of Civ, like on a Pangaea map you can have your scout across the continent and meet every Civ by maybe the classical era.

But with what they're talking about here does that mean they're going to shrink map scripts even more? I was majorly disappointed from Civ V -> Civ VI we lost a bunch of non-globe scripts like Great Plains, Highlands, etc etc. They're not necessarily first choice but when you're playing the game for hundreds of hours they can be fun to go to. Part of the appeal/longevity of the Civ series is the breadth of map options every time you want to start a new game. To sacrifice that just for a single new game mechanic would be disastrous in my opinion.

 

[Krikkit1]

What I would like to see

Default maps have terrain that limits era 1 expansion with a few options for what is in the unreachable areas

1-independent peoples only
2-new AI players that start in era 2
3- Era 1 player civs are split among the unreachable areas

Regardless of maps, any era1 unit /settlement will get penalties based on distance from the capital. So that scout TSL Rome sent out will die well before reaching TSL China…they May contact a Chinese scout for diplomacy…but no map sharing.
(And TSL Roman settlements in TSL India / Eastern Persia will invariably revolt)

 

[Gori the Grey]

If you combine this

Was it not said somewhere that in the ancient era you can only have 5 civs, and in the exploration era 8 or so?

with this

In this interview with Ed Beech from Gamescom, he says "basically you jump forward a few hundred years in history" between the ages, that "a little more than half" of the map is available in the first age but they ensure that the maps have deep ocean to cut off the rest until the age of exploration and can cross those tiles. (Mostly cited from around the 11:00 mark)
So honestly seems not too dissimilar from past civs as long as you played on a continents map script.

it seems as though maybe, during antiquity, you play against four other civs on one landmass, then Age of Exploration lets you cross the ocean and there you meet three other civs. If so, then presumably the game was playing them all along, and updates them to AoE-era civs at the civ-shifting moment. Historically, that parallels the discovery of "New World" (from the point of view of Western colonizers).

But how would that be managed for multiplayer?

Doesn't that massively limit map types?

Doesn't that limit you indicating how many civs you want to play against?

What's the equivalent historical grounds for the map expansion for Exploration into Modern?

 

[pokiehl]

In this interview with Ed Beech from Gamescom, he says "basically you jump forward a few hundred years in history" between the ages, that "a little more than half" of the map is available in the first age but they ensure that the maps have deep ocean to cut off the rest until the age of exploration and can cross those tiles. (Mostly cited from around the 11:00 mark)
So honestly seems not too dissimilar from past civs as long as you played on a continents map script.

Thanks for this. That's the clearest explanation so far.