[R&F] Mapuche First Look

[bite]

Well the next day and it looks like pretty much everyone has found the civ to be captivating

 

[bite]

Moderator Action: This is not a thread for The Ottomans, any more post will be considered off-topic

 

[Zaarin]

Looks like they could've gone with the Olmecs or Toltecs or something more recognizable.

The day Civilization starts including archaeological cultures is a dark day for the franchise. "[Made up name] leads the Corded Ware Culture in Sid Meier's Archaeological Civilizations!" There is a huge, enormous gap between "dark horse civilizations" and "civilizations attested only in the archaeological record with no language or leaders." Archaeologists don't even universally agree the Toltecs existed; some argue they were just an Aztec ideal, like Atlantis.

 

[King William I]

And the only thing we know about the Olmec language is that they spoke one..... which even at this point is a guess

 

[God of Kings]

The day Civilization starts including archaeological cultures is a dark day for the franchise. "[Made up name] leads the Corded Ware Culture in Sid Meier's Archaeological Civilizations!" There is a huge, enormous gap between "dark horse civilizations" and "civilizations attested only in the archaeological record with no language or leaders." Archaeologists don't even universally agree the Toltecs existed; some argue they were just an Aztec ideal, like Atlantis.

What's next? The Proto-Indo-European civ?

 

[Zaarin]

And the only thing we know about the Olmec language is that they spoke one..... which even at this point is a guess

Yep, the idea that it was Proto-Mixe-Zoque is based purely on geography, and that they were actually relatives of the Maya is another popular theory. Plus the idea that they were the Mesoamerican mother culture has passed out of fashion now that we know the early Maya were already contemporary with the Olmec.

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

The day Civilization starts including archaeological cultures is a dark day for the franchise. "[Made up name] leads the Corded Ware Culture in Sid Meier's Archaeological Civilizations!" There is a huge, enormous gap between "dark horse civilizations" and "civilizations attested only in the archaeological record with no language or leaders." Archaeologists don't even universally agree the Toltecs existed; some argue they were just an Aztec ideal, like Atlantis.

I was tempted to create a mod based on this idea once. Did some research and decided this was going a bit too far.

 

[GoatsHeadSoup]

The day Civilization starts including archaeological cultures is a dark day for the franchise. "[Made up name] leads the Corded Ware Culture in Sid Meier's Archaeological Civilizations!" There is a huge, enormous gap between "dark horse civilizations" and "civilizations attested only in the archaeological record with no language or leaders." Archaeologists don't even universally agree the Toltecs existed; some argue they were just an Aztec ideal, like Atlantis.

I wouldn't mind seeing a pre-civilization stone age scenario. Firaxis always includes at least one scenario that is completely different from the historical theme ( like the steampunk scenario in Civ 5), so I don't see why this couldn't happen.

 

[Thormodr]

Some devs at firaxis headquarters must love manly muscles. Alexander looks like a wimp compared to India, Gilgamesh and this guy.

Alexander looks like a wimp compared to Gandhi?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I wouldn't mind seeing a pre-civilization stone age scenario. Firaxis always includes at least one scenario that is completely different from the historical theme ( like the steampunk scenario in Civ 5), so I don't see why this couldn't happen.

Then we can finally get a Gobekli Tepe Wonder.

 

[DeutschDachs]

My assumption is this: most of us who are okay with the Mapuche have been in anyone of those sneak peek speculation threads. Those who are not have not been in those thread or weren't as engaging with the discussion as us did not like the Mapuche. It's just a matter of who's caught up in the discussion.



Come to think of it I wouldn't have thought there wouldn't be any opposition to the inclusion of the Mapuche from the Mapuche themselves had I knew more about them. They violently resisted colonial forces as compared to the Cree who adapted to their situation with the colonials as best they can through diplomacy and trade.

The Mapuche and the Cree are complementary opposites of each other. Meanwhile the Aztecs are just... Aztecs.

Well for the Mapuche they don't mind war or being portrayed as such. They also live in a country politically unsympathetic to their dilemmas compared to Canada. They would probably enjoy the exposure to more Western media sources and audiences.

For the Cree it probably hits closer to home since it's a North American company making a game about them too. I'm not sure they would lodge a complaint (or it would get much attention) if a Chilean company made a game with them in it

 

[stealth_nsk]

Taking a closer look at the video, Lautaro's loyalty effect seems to only be 5 points per unit. This seems very low, given that loyalty loss/gain per turn can easily reach the double digits. Even a city that was exactly breaking even on loyalty would require you to kill 20 units to flip it to a free city. The ability seems very interesting conceptually, but unless the numbers are increased, I have a hard time seeing it do anything but slightly accelerate the fall of already doomed cities.

The loyalty penalty is truly -5 per unit and yes, it's surely not designed to flip full 100-loyalty city with positive balance. However, newly captured cities (50 loyalty and dropping) are much easier target - whether they were captured from Mapuche or some third civ. I'd say, the most effective this ability is to recapture your own cities (just captured and under loyalty pressure from you), which looks intentional.

However, it could be used for offensive wars quite well, you'll just not be able to convert all and every city - just some of them.

 

[PhilBowles]

Well for the Mapuche they don't mind war or being portrayed as such.

The impression I got from the Cree thread was there was a misunderstanding of the Cree leader's objection. It wasn't to being portrayed as 'warlike' - Native American groups like most tribal societies honour their warrior traditions - it was to their perception that the game was about conquest specifically. This is a much more sensitive issue among groups subject to historical denial of their land or to Europeans questioning their rights to their territory. The message 'you're conquerors just like us' sends in their eyes is 'you aren't any more entitled to this land than we are'.

That's a very legitimate fear - I don't think it's one that Civ is genuinely likely to exacerbate, but it's an understandable concern. Since it has to do with territorial rights rather than whether or not the group has a history of aggressive conflict, the Mapuche may well be as sensitive to it as a putatively more 'peaceful' group like the Cree.

 

[sonicmyst]

There was a comment in YouTube about the Chilean-Mapuche conflict. Hopefully, the inclusion of Mapuche in R&F will make us recognize these civilizations and be more respectable to them.

 

[earlc]

Really cool civ and leader. The uniques are interesting, kind of a rare civ to have mostly military bonuses with some culture. Kind of sets them up to lapse behind in science a little, with combat bonuses that could prime them for a come from behind victory.

Even though combat bonuses are almost strategically useless against the AI, it still could be a lot of fun to snipe and pillage your neighbors and make em lose cities to lack of loyalty. Altogether, seems like a fun civ to play on Deity!

 

[Zaarin]

I wouldn't mind seeing a pre-civilization stone age scenario. Firaxis always includes at least one scenario that is completely different from the historical theme ( like the steampunk scenario in Civ 5), so I don't see why this couldn't happen.

Scenario, sure. But I really don't need the Corded War, Beaker, Yamna, Ubaid, and La Tène cultures added as playable civs in the main game.

 

[Pietato]

The loyalty penalty is truly -5 per unit and yes, it's surely not designed to flip full 100-loyalty city with positive balance. However, newly captured cities (50 loyalty and dropping) are much easier target - whether they were captured from Mapuche or some third civ. I'd say, the most effective this ability is to recapture your own cities (just captured and under loyalty pressure from you), which looks intentional.

However, it could be used for offensive wars quite well, you'll just not be able to convert all and every city - just some of them.

Seems like it will be more powerful the higher the difficulty, due to more AI units to kill.

 

[Pietato]

Where can I read the actual values?

 

[Cagarustus]

UA: Devshirme: Gain +1 envoy upon capturing an enemy city for the first time. Gain +5% production towards military units for every City State you're the Suzerain of.
LUA: Fall of Constantinople: Support Units are half price. All Siege Units can attack after moving and gain +5 Combat Strength against Cities. Gain the Sipahi UU after discovering Ballistics.

UU: Jannissary: replaces the Musketman, gains +1 movement if it starts its turn in enemy lands and does +10 flat damage extra to any Gunpowder Infantry, Light Cavalry and Heavy Cavalry they attack or are attacked by.
UU: Sipahi: Unique Unit for the Ottomans if Mehmet is the leader. replaces Cavalry. Available earlier, gains +4 combat strength vs Gunpowder Infantry. This bonus is doubled if they started their turn next to a Jannissary.
UD: Harem: Replaces Government District. Provides +1 Amenity and half of the population lost by Enemy cities upon conquest is added to this city's population.


Feel free to copy this upon reading, Firaxis. The community will thank you.

Firaxis does not take unsolicited suggestions from the public due to legal considerations.

 

[steveg700]

The day Civilization starts including archaeological cultures is a dark day for the franchise. "[Made up name] leads the Corded Ware Culture in Sid Meier's Archaeological Civilizations!" There is a huge, enormous gap between "dark horse civilizations" and "civilizations attested only in the archaeological record with no language or leaders." Archaeologists don't even universally agree the Toltecs existed; some argue they were just an Aztec ideal, like Atlantis.

"Tis a dark day that would only bother history hipsters. And I think we've had plenty of those to date already. Looks like we're all still here.