Marathon too easy?

[gettingfat]

Marathon gave unfair advantage to most early UU, especially prat & CKN. And it penalize the fast worker too much.

I still prefer normal speed.

Actually immortals and war chariots are even more insane. It's not difficult to purely rely on them to take out all opponents on my continent way before AD.

I find Epic is most reasonable. Marathon is really boring IMHO (and those silly "random" events that destroy buildings and improvements drive more even more crazy). With standard speed units obsolete way too fast.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Do you guys think I'd fare considerably better on epic, given my strong, strong affinity towards warmongering? Right now things obsoleting in the middle of the first war I use them in is a problem (normal speed), but one with workarounds on maps like...well pangaea and terra. Would playing on epic allow me to way on my continent without being 20+ back by the time the other civs get to me (and no, I don't found religions usually. If I found a religion, it's by accident, and then I know I'm doing really, REALLY well techwise and will probably win, because I give them low priority generally).

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I think so Mr. Team. Slower speeds favour war alot I find. Quick speed war is the hardest I think, it makes cultural a bit easier though.

I mainly play normal and playing epic makes things seem easier to me with my domination style play (space as a back up if opponents become too strong late game).

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Finished my game, domination in 1793. That's my earliest domination win on map with multiple continents, and ended up being my best score ever, 117,000. If I need to conquer another continent it usually takes me until the early to mid 1900s to win.

On a pangaea map i could see myself winning centuries earlier. Marathon definitely makes winning a military game earlier possible.

 

[mike p]

Yes, the percents are the same.

Then what accounts for the difference in tech pace? Is it just a snowballing effect from the fact that you can REX more rapidly because effectively your soldiers, settlers, and workers all move faster?

 

[DaveMcW]

Workers build 50% faster, so all civs are super-expansive.

The faster relative movement helps a bit too.

 

[madscientist]

Workers build 50% faster, so all civs are super-expansive.

The faster relative movement helps a bit too.

I am a little lost here.

Comparing marathon to standard

Tech: beakers cost 3 times
Building: hammers cost 3 times
Units: hammer cost 2 times
Worker improvement: 3 times. A marathon mine costs 12 turns, a standard speed mine costs 4 turns. right?
Golden Ages: 2 times length

I do not understand the 50% reference.

 

[danieldaniel]

maybe he means you need less hammers+food to build workers since their cost is x2 instead of x3 ??

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Workers build 50% faster, so all civs are super-expansive.

The faster relative movement helps a bit too.

Settlers also build 50% faster (every unit does, relatively speaking). I often wondered how people got 4 cities up so fast, but on epic not only can I easily have 4 out by 1AD, they have more improvements than they have tiles they can work! I'd make more cities then if it weren't too costly...usually wait for economic techs.

Faster relative movement = a couple techs at war. That's more than a bit.

How does healing work in slower speeds? Do the units still heal at the same rate? It seems like it. I tried an epic game yesterday, and it was pretty amazing how different it was. The other continent was barely ahead of me, and with the land I had I caught up quickly. 12 galleons full of cavalry and infantry dropped right in (admittedly aided by US buying buildup...those galleons all came from 1 city, and took less than 20 turns), took a city, and it was on. Justinian and Toku over there don't have steam power yet, so I have some time before trying to smack my way into infantry.

That game is really funny to me, because monty is my friend. I like warmonger friends. They actually attack when you want, and you generally don't have to worry about them sneaking out space or culture wins on you .

 

[madscientist]

Here are some questions about marathon compared with standard. Just questions, I am not saying one is better than another.

1) faster build of workers/settlers> OK marathon has an edge here. However, given teh AI has more of an advantage over the human player early on (don't they get so many free hammers in the city? or a production discount) as they can (and do) city spam more than the human.

2) US: Is the gold cost for a building/unit the same ration as building them with hammers? Seams to me I never fully utilize US in my games because the costs are so damned high.

3) Upgrade: What are the costs for upgrading units and how is that factored in. Example, I can upgrade a musket to a rifle for 200 gold on marathon, what's the standard equivalnet?

4) draft/slavery: This is 3X cost in unhappiness in marathon compared with 2X build. For this reason I rarely draft/whip units in my marathon games.

5) Golden Ages: are really inefficient in marathon as they are comparable for unit production (both 2X) but inefficient for buildings. However, I think the BTS changes have made GAs very attractive for marathon now.

6) GP is also 3X. othing earth shattering here but mentioned for completion sake.

7) Movement: Yes marathon speed let's units move the same turns as standard. This is a big advantage for the human in war.

Just more fodder for discussion.

 

[madscientist]

The healing rate in marathon is 10% per turn in nuetral land (I think) which I believe is the standard rate

 

[oyzar]

Marathon is indeed a lot easier for the human compared to the AI and hence easier than other speeds...

 

[SnowlyWhite]

us works the same, same for upgrade costs

2x speed for settler/worker is hot and not so hot; on deity I find it completely very not so hot from the human pov. Same goes for cultural borders; many many turns to last in there. Actually I find culture a royal pain on marathon.

Nationalism without spiritual is perfectly way worse on marathon imho; that's why I tend to give spiritual #1 in a traits chart, while people playing on normal seem way less impressed with it. The idea is that your globe city which is able to grow from pop 5 to 6 in 1 turn, here grows in 3 turns. Whipping units also loses some value, though I find whipping units still king.

barbarians; at least on deity... better have some good spots for fog busting. First times I was playing on deity I was wondering if the computer makes fun of me. Also pray that your neighbour doesn't build gw, or you'll look like grand central

diplomacy - I'd say it's sensibly harder; with 3x more turns, you'll have 3x more opportunities for someone coming to ask things; while the settings for turns inbetween asking are the same. So a long war between 2 ais will surely give you the opportunity to decline joining the war 2-3 times. This together with culture I find the biggest problem on marathon; though deity barbarians are nothing to shun at either.
Also, you'll be checked for war declaration x3 times

golden age - worse; 2x length for 2x unit production cost is par with normal; same for civic swapping. Buildings - worse then normal. Gold/research - worse then normal, since techs/upgrades costs 3x and your ga lasts x2

but thank God, all this is compensated by the fact that units actually move at a decent speed compared to the time needed to build them.

other marathon bonuses:

1. mines; given so many turns, and since it's a random chance/turn to pop. a resource from a mine, it's wise to build forges. The mine resources will most probably pop sooner or later
2. wfyabta - there's a 5% chance of forgetting a trade each turn. With 3x more turns... I seldom find myself bothered by wfyabta.
3. random events. Start game, they can screw you up much easier on marathon; on long term, I'd say it's a bonus, since overall, if we're to be honest, they're more on the positive side.
4. spikes/rushes - obviously it's easier to spike your power and declare. Same probably for axe rush, though it was a while since I did my last one. Though ok, the rush is abit limited by the fact you can whip units sensibly less efficient.
5. healing - what's a mash? Though you'd still better get a mash out.

hope it helps

 

[CivCorpse]

@ those saying marathon is more forgiving. I say otherwise. Yes a one turn mistake is easily overcome. But what happens when you pick the wrong tech path? On normal you can switch to a new tech and have it in like 10-15 turns. AI dow's and you see him with knights when you decided to tech something besides engineering? No problem at normal speed. You can tech it in 10-15 turns and crack the whip for some pikes before the Ai does too much damage. On marathon speed? oh boy big fun waiting 30-45 turns researching pikes as the knights chew you to pieces. I have found that the people that are most firmly against marathon are the early rushers and warmongers. And those that play standard or smaller maps. I firmly believe that Marathon is best used on large or huge maps. It enables you to actually get to your own borders without your troops being yesterday's news. I mean it sucks when you march your SOD of maces/trebs/knights to the enemy...only to have them hits with a tactical nuke.
Now the reasons Marathon can make the game easier.
If you are unlike myself(who sucks at war in Civ) then warmongering is a walk in the park.
If you pop BW from a hut in the first few turns PWN
You don't have to check every single city every single turn to stop the computer from assigning yet another spy specialist.
and the very best reasons to play marathon beelining PRIVATEERS

 

[Calouste]

@ those saying marathon is more forgiving. I say otherwise. Yes a one turn mistake is easily overcome. But what happens when you pick the wrong tech path? On normal you can switch to a new tech and have it in like 10-15 turns. AI dow's and you see him with knights when you decided to tech something besides engineering? No problem at normal speed. You can tech it in 10-15 turns and crack the whip for some pikes before the Ai does too much damage. On marathon speed? oh boy big fun waiting 30-45 turns researching pikes as the knights chew you to pieces.

I agree with that. You have to be more careful on Marathon that you are not behind in military techs otherwise you're at risk of being overrun by the AI. Where people can skip dead-end military techs like Archery and Horseback riding on Normal, because they can research fast to better units, that is tricky at Marathon.

 

[danieldaniel]

As various posters have shown, marathon has its advantages and disadventages for the human player, the question of being easier or more difficult is at least opinable and depends largely on play style.

I have played marathon for the most part ever since they pachted it in, but the games I play on normal once in while don't look more difficult to me. Despite that I'm ready to admit that marathon is a little easier than normal, but not much, and surly not enough to make for a difficulty level. I think there are other factors such as starting position or leader traits that influence difficulty much more than speed.

Personaly I find the disdain with which a few people treat marathon in their posts a bit insulting towards marathon players. It's like it bothered them that some of us play it. I still remember an older thread where someone was suggesting to limit unit movement to once every three turns in marathon

 

[madscientist]

I think the persieved disdain (and I am not sure it is) towards marathon players comes from a desire of posters in this site to continually argue about something. SE vs. CE, marathon vs standard, HC vs. Liz, MaryAnn vs Ginger (oops sorry, wrong website!). I generally take them with a grain of salt.

Probably the biggest issue is posted games such as Sis' ALC, and my RPCs to name a few that are played segment by segement at one speed and the followers typically play at a different speed. Generally shadowing becomes difficult (although you can adjust via worldbuilder) as I found trying to shadow an epic speed ALC from Sis or hearing about a marathon speed RPC.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think the persieved disdain (and I am not sure it is) towards marathon players comes from a desire of posters in this site to continually argue about something. SE vs. CE, marathon vs standard, HC vs. Liz, MaryAnn vs Ginger (oops sorry, wrong website!). I generally take them with a grain of salt.

Probably the biggest issue is posted games such as Sis' ALC, and my RPCs to name a few that are played segment by segement at one speed and the followers typically play at a different speed. Generally shadowing becomes difficult (although you can adjust via worldbuilder) as I found trying to shadow an epic speed ALC from Sis or hearing about a marathon speed RPC.

I have no problem with marathon players. Zero. Especially since I can switch the RPC speeds . The only problem I have with marathon is that I'm impatient. For those who prefer their games that way, I have no issue. IMO, marathon suits my playstyle more than any other speed, since my strategic decision making within a game seems to come down to: war now, war later if I can't afford to war now, or try to cheese out a different victory if a war victory seems impractical.

Or, one can just put it on quick, try to found 3 religions or so, turtle up, and culture!

 

[UncleJJ]

One minor consequence of the units being cheaper on marathon relative to other speeds is that it is easier to spread religions with missionaries and corporations with executives.

Spies are also cheaper, so the 80 hammers they cost on marathon is equivalent to 27 on normal. That is a significant boost to espionage.

 

[Blackluck]

I only play marathon games (standard size to huge maps depending on my mood.)

Not a warmonger, I've never won a domination or conquest game (I've tried a few warmonger games but quit through boredom/disinterest.) I win mostly culture games which requires 150K in the top three cities. However, I tend to start new games a lot -- probably abandon 90% of my games once they are well in hand (usually by the time I build the UN and it's readily apparent diplo isn't an option and I have to go to space to win I really enjoy the game up through liberalism though; for some reason I never tire of the city settling/expansion/wonder building era

I have seen some incredible SoDs from the AI though ... I think Boudica wins for having the largest I've ever seen. She's also a terror in the modern age. Good thing I always make her a friend regardless of religion.