Masochistic Sheiam

[jimi12]

the whole purpose of the sheiam is to bring about the apocolypse. however, the only advantage that they get in the game is that their planar gates work a little better with the AC high. other than that, they still get slammed by the 4 horseman, still get hit with blight, and hell terrain still hurts their economy. all this would really discourage a player to bring about armageddon when you are going to go down in flames with the rest of the world.

the sheiam should really have some sort of mechanic that makes it so that they are more prosperous with the AC at 100 then at 0. increasing the number of chaos marauders and minotaurs isnt that big of an incentive for me as of yet.

 

[Ekolite]

Well to be honest, they're destroying the world to... destroy the world. That includes themselves. I think its Os-Gabella who's immortal and is bringing the appocalypse because its the only way she can bring her life to an end.

It would be cool if there was a sheaim player in the game the horsemen belong to them when they appear. Could be unblanced though.

 

[jimi12]

i dont even think that they need to gain control of the horseman, but even if the horseman would just not attack them or at the very least not spawn in their borders. or blight wouldnt effect them if they contributed 50% of the counter. just an idea.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still think that what is really needed is an AV-only ritual that grants peace with the barbarian state. The Sheaim are the best Ritualists (and should already rush for the Celestial Compass because of their Elegy Ritual, which would complement this very well), so they would be at an advantage in this and should probably be weighted to pursue this.

I think it should be a repeatable ritual that perhaps also makes the barbarians a little stronger, and that the benefit should not be permanent. The barbs should either declare war when the 10 turn treaty is up, or (to make it more competitive) make it so that the current peace treaties are canceled whenever another civ completes the ritual.


It might also be interesting if there were another ritual that could only be cast when at peace with the barbs, which would create a permanent alliance between your civ and the barbarian state and maybe alo make you immune to the effects of Armageddon events. This would mean that the horsemen, avatar, etc, are on your side, and that you win the game whan they wipe out the rest of the world. It also means that you declare war on everyone, and must be really committed to destroying the world. It might also mean that you could conduct diplomacy on the barbarian's behalf, and steer them to destroy those you hate most.


Something like the ritual-triggered event I proposed in the last design thread would probably be a good implementation.

 

[3141592]

It's not that the Shiem become better when the world ends, it's that they are batter then everyone else. Due to there high amount of demonic and undead units they can get through the apocalypse okay. Also, as all the other civs are desperately rebuilding their army, yours are spawning like mad. Just survive the initial rush and you should be able to smother your enemies.

 

[loki1232]

how about when the arm counter reaches 100 the AV civ which has contributed the most to it gains a free "peace with barbs"?

 

[xienwolf]

The only problem I see with that right off the bat is that one would quickly become first place by a large margin if not being harassed by Wrath & Co. And the small problem of probably already being far in the lead if you contributed a lot to the AC.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still think it it something that should not happen automatically, but through a ritual. If the ritual triggers an event though, then AC contribution could be taken into account in allowing better options.

 

[daladinn]

the ritual to make peace with the barbs was removed several versions ago.

 

[merciary]

I still get a laugh that the ones trying to cause the apocalypse are not the ones that can ride it out this best but instead the Luchuirp are since most of their units aren't living.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

the ritual to make peace with the barbs was removed several versions ago.

Yeah, I know--and I've been begging to have it readded ever since. (Well, not exactly the same ritual, as Wrath is now now one of the Armageddon events)

 

[Shatner]

I don't think the Sheaim need any more special, apocalypse survival bonuses and here's why: Planar Gates, Sacrifice the Weak.

The Sheaim have such synergy with AV it seems silly to go with anything else in the long run. So, you are plugging along, worshiping the Veil and doing you're darnedest to raise the AC. It hits 40 and suddenly everyone is going hungry and suffering from poor health. But, you're running Sacrifice the Weak so while it is screwing over your size 30 cities, you only have to downgrade to size 15 or 20 while everyone, even the Kuriotates, are starving down around 10. It's not that the Blight doesn't hurt you, it's that it hurts you less.

Alright, everyone has farmed up and adopted Agriculture to stabilize their populations. That means their production is suffering because of it. Except for you. Your mined hills don't have to be ignored while your people are clinging to their remaining farms and you still have specialists. Plus, your army keeps spawning regardless of what you are building or how high or low your production is.

It's like Pi said, you get hurt but LESS than everyone else including Luchurip since many of your units (pyre zombies, diseased corpses, tar demons, chaos marauders) aren't alive either and you are still working half as hard to feed your population as they are. Only as the Sheaim can you run a builder strategy WHILE conquering as fast as your army can march. Having armies composed of summoned units and gated units makes dedicating cities to military production optional. So, bring on the Armageddon because war isn't about who is right but about who is left. And a war of attrition is one the Sheaim can win, just ask your Eaters of Dreams.

 

[Willgar]

I don't think the Sheaim need any more special, apocalypse survival bonuses and here's why: Planar Gates, Sacrifice the Weak.

The Sheaim have such synergy with AV it seems silly to go with anything else in the long run. So, you are plugging along, worshiping the Veil and doing you're darnedest to raise the AC. It hits 40 and suddenly everyone is going hungry and suffering from poor health. But, you're running Sacrifice the Weak so while it is screwing over your size 30 cities, you only have to downgrade to size 15 or 20 while everyone, even the Kuriotates, are starving down around 10. It's not that the Blight doesn't hurt you, it's that it hurts you less.

Alright, everyone has farmed up and adopted Agriculture to stabilize their populations. That means their production is suffering because of it. Except for you. Your mined hills don't have to be ignored while your people are clinging to their remaining farms and you still have specialists. Plus, your army keeps spawning regardless of what you are building or how high or low your production is.

It's like Pi said, you get hurt but LESS than everyone else including Luchurip since many of your units (pyre zombies, diseased corpses, tar demons, chaos marauders) aren't alive either and you are still working half as hard to feed your population as they are. Only as the Sheaim can you run a builder strategy WHILE conquering as fast as your army can march. Having armies composed of summoned units and gated units makes dedicating cities to military production optional. So, bring on the Armageddon because war isn't about who is right but about who is left. And a war of attrition is one the Sheaim can win, just ask your Eaters of Dreams.

Thank you for the above post Shatner - have avoided playing Sheaim as i could not really see a viable strategy with them - the above has prompted me to ditch my current long running (..and pretty dull turtle) Elohim game and start a new Sheaim "reign of fire" game instead

Many thanks

 

[GePap]

Also, thanks to a surplus of Mobious Witches, The Sheiam can easily have lots of fireball weilding arcae units, and also easily have three liches and three archmages with plenty of units high enough to replace any losses. And then you can devote your adepts to summoners, and then you get eaters of dreams...

 

[daladinn]

Also, thanks to a surplus of Mobious Witches, The Sheiam can easily have lots of fireball weilding arcae units, and also easily have three liches and three archmages with plenty of units high enough to replace any losses. And then you can devote your adepts to summoners, and then you get eaters of dreams...

OMG , ROFL , this was funny as all hell

you do realize that you can get to eaters of dreams LONG before archmages?

this should read....

you can easily have 3 eaters of dreams and then you can devote your mobius witches to making archamges and liches.

 

[Calbrenar]

OMG , ROFL , this was funny as all hell

you do realize that you can get to eaters of dreams LONG before archmages?

this should read....

you can easily have 3 eaters of dreams and then you can devote your mobius witches to making archamges and liches.

Isn't Ethereal Call and Strength of Will at approximately the same place on the tech tree?

Personally I went with Eaters first. Playing a 12 AI 2 human players on Creation. I'm Sheim friend is Khazad. Lanun are right next to me lead by Falamar and they are crushing the score. They are beating me to wonders left and right and just out producing like crazy. I go and attack with a huge army of chaos marauders (lots of summoners) push thru 3 cities and capture them easily with 4 mages and like 6 Conjurers and 5 ritualists. Honestly I don' tsee the big fuss about the sheim priests since they don't seem to do anything. I have a hard time getting them to kill anything to get xp even with using fireballs to weaken stuff. All they do is summon azers who suck (no desert around for miles) their only use is ring of fire which is nice admittedly. I rushed the tech to get them promoted up but I can't promote any of them. I'm assuming its because I odn't have incense since they are already level 6 which is believe is the level they need but sure since I thought sheim was all about the reagents.

Anyway Falamar is crushing and hyporborem spawned by my khazad friend. I don't even hav econtact with him. Basium is out as well. I make peace with falamar and actually liberate his 3 cities back so that they grow faster (10 turns of unrest) and start researching eaters.

With the eaters out now I am grouped outside his border. I've summoned 9 Pit Beasts and will attack this turn. INstead of taking 10 turns to convert his city I plan on using eaters to summon 50ish pit beasts and overrun him. I'm tmepted to raze his cities since AC is only around 43 thanks to my Prophecy of Ragnarok and producing an adept a turn (2/3 go summong 1/3 goes sorcery) but he has so many wonders and the area is totally farmed and mined and since eaters will kill off the citizens of his i don't like and sacrifice the weak will let them grow back almost immediately i plan on keeping them

 

[daladinn]

the key to notice is that you need knowledge of both conjurers and mages to get archmages. however, you don't need mages for summoners. It saves you 2 techs if your doing a "bee line"

ok , ritualists 101 ...

1st promo is entropy 2 ....

allows for unholy taint. not only can you claim your arse is now EVIL , but you will also gain xp ALOT faster.

also allows for casting summon imp. imps as you know will stay around for 3 turns. they come into play with the free promotion. give them fire 1 on turn 2 and start casting scorch. (desert turns into nice flaming impassible hell terrain, well unless your a demon).

next promo is typically death 2 or fire 2 , but its more a matter of choice.

death 2 allows...
- summon nightmare (these have fear and an affinity for death , plan ahead for it)
- contagion (nice for busting and weakening cities)

fire 2 allows ....
- ring of flames (just all around good)
- summon azer (totally useless summon)

now , for when your ready to make them into the high end profanes ...
- death 3 gives wraiths. these are great unless your fighting the bad guys who use demons or the good guys who are using dispel undead and angels. basically only good if you are way ahead of the others or after nuetrals.
- entopy 3 gives balors. these are awesome summons, slow but powerful. you also gain banish with this rank to remove pesky angels , demons, and elementals.
- fire 3 gives pillar of flames. self explanatory really. the fire elementals are in the same boat as the wraiths at the end game, mostly useless.


aside from what i just said here , you played them the way they should be played.

 

[Calbrenar]

Ahh I wasn't using unholy taint because the tooltip just says "gives the unholy taint promo" and i'm like ok what does that do? lol

Any idea why I can't upgrade my priests. It is level 6 right? I'm actually going to try to get Abashi out. One of the main reasons I'm trying to kill Falmar is he started building the AV wonders since I spread AV to him. Even though he's FoL he built the Infernal Grimoire which pissed me off ;x

 

[daladinn]

as for upgrading priests....
- are the ritualists in a city? if not put them in one
- do you have reagents? i dont think you need them but check the city they are in to be sure
- do you have enough gold? the option wont show up til you can afford it. set research to 0 for a few turns
- did you double check that they are level 6? i have to ask , lol

thats really the only reasons i could think of

 

[it-ogo]

Remember that Avatar of Wrath and Armageddon enrages and kills absolute majority of living units in the world. But Sheaim army consists mainly of demonic units which are inaffected, so immediately after Armageddon they can defeat regular civs easily (especially with slower game speed). Only their opponents at that time are Mercurians, Infernals and maybe Luchuirp with their golems.

So their focus shuld be demonic units (Planar Gates creatures, AV heroes and beasts of Agares) rather then priests and human arcane spellcasters. I think good modification should be that AV high priests (Prophanes?) start with demon promo. And maybe even ritualists. That is enough.