Math03: OCCC

[TheBB]

Didn't read your advice till after my turns, mathias. But I rushed the rider anyway. We entered our GA immediately so no need for the low-shield unit.

Pre-turn: Looks good I guess. We're average in military strength compared to Monty.

(1) - There's a lot of roman archers around, so I decide to take the peace deal that Disenfranchised suggested. Korea offers 8 gold for Lit. No way. Have to up luxes due to loss of war happiness. We're making 47 gpt...

Vet MDI kills JW, -2 HP and promotes.
Elite archer kills archer, -3 HP.

IT - Korea is building Sun Tzu.

(2) - Move our glorious armies ever closer to Tula. Rush rider.

IT - Aztecs land a reg archer next to Beijing.

(3) - I attack the intruding archer with the rushed rider. It dies flawlessly (for us) and we enter the GA. Indeed, 2 turn riders it is. We need 560 gold to rush riders now, so our +62 gpt won't do much good. I thus crank up science. Engineering in 10 with -4 gpt. I disperse a barb camp with an MDI.

(4) - The attack on Tula begins:

Vet MDI kills elite warrior, -1 HP and promotes.
Vet MDI kills reg archer flawlessly and promotes.

We raze Tula. Start moving against Texcoco. Kill a JW with our Rider, -1 HP.

IT - Korea is building GLib, and Monty sends two JWs our way.

(5) - Beijing builds Rider. Use it to kill one of the approaching JWs, -1 HP. Will take the other next turn.

IT - Lose an MDI vs. an aztec archer, but redlines it in the process.

(6) -

Elite MDI kills redlined archer.
Vet rider kills reg JW, promotes.

(7) - Beijing builds another Rider. Will attack Texcoco next turn. Kill a barb horse in the east.

IT - Korea's building HG.

(8) - Attack on Texcoco:

Elite MDI kills reg archer, -1 HP.
Elite MDI kills reg spear, -1 HP.

We raze Texcoco and get three slaves. Use riders to pick off three stray JWs, and lose no HPs in the process.

Kill barb warrior in the west, but expose our horse to a barb horse while doing so...

IT - The barbs don't attack, nor does the aztecs.

(9) - A new rider . Military advisor says we're strong compared to Monty now. Slay the barb horse with our horse. The army takes a healing turn.

IT - Romans are building GLib, and Monty doesn't attack. He's just maneuvering.

(10) -

Elite MDI kills reg archer, -3 HP.
Veteran rider kills reg JW, -1 HP and promotes.

Summary:

Killed about 20 units, among which are 3 barb ones and some 16-17 aztec ones. Lost one. Promoted lots. I guess that's a fair kill ratio .

The state of our campaign:



SAVE

 

[Mathias]

You paid 104 gold to get the Rider done a turn early. Short-rushing as I suggested would have done the same for only 32 gold. I understand that you played before you saw my post, but the short-rush is a tactic that you need to know. Normal rushing will waste all shields that would be produced that turn. Short-rushing allows you to buy just the shields you need.

 

[Mach]

Yes, let me just support Mathias here. I never, ever completely rush anything that takes less than about 5 turns to build. I always look for a way to short-rush them. The things I usually fully rush are builds that would take awhile, courts in corrupt cities being a prototypical example...

Edit: Woah, I'm up again already? I can play this afternoon, unless there's something we want to debate. But I think it's pretty clear, push research, build riders, burn cities. Do we want to make any alliances?

 

[Mathias]

Why is our worker just hanging out at the horse colony? I saw him there at the end of the last turnset, and assumed he was building a fortress. Party's over, man: GET BACK TO WORK!!

Why are we at zero growth? I'll assume that an enemy unit forced our citizen off of the game.

Those slaves should be connecting the roads between Beijing and the former site of Texcoco. Outposts on a couple of hills in the near east (it is east, not west - I see I'm not the only one to mixed that up) would give us line-of-site on all territory between our capital and our colonies.

I don't think an alliance would be a good idea at this time, but not totally against it. We'll need embassy first anyway.

 

[TheBB]

Well, if this is so important, are any of you two going to explain to me what shortrushing is then...?

 

[Mathias]

Short-rushing is hurrying a less expensive unit/improvement, then switching back to what you intend to build. In the example of rushing that first rider:

Normal rush: 22 shields + 22 shields + 36 shields rushed for 104 gold + 22 shields overrun.
Short rush: 22 shields + 8 shields rushed for 32 gold + 22 shields + 22 shields (4 shields overrun)

 

[Mach]

Exactly. Completely rushing something fills the shield box, so all the spt the city makes is lost for that turn. But if you can rush something smaller...

My favorite example is cavs and granaries. Cavs are worth 80s, granaries are worth 60s. So if you get a city at a beautiful 20spt...it can then build cavs in 2 turns given 160gp. First turn gives 20s, rush the granary then switch to cav, and the second turn gives the final 20s.

The other thing to know about rushing is that the rate is 8gp/shield if no shields have been invested. But if there are shields in the box, then the rate drops to 4gp/shield. So it's always cheaper to wait a turn before rushing anything.

 

[Mathias]

The rate is 4gp/shield normally, or 8gp/shield if no shields have been invested.

 

[P32zz]

Lurker's comment:

One trick to get around that is to first rush the cheapest thing you can - a warrior or a worker. 10 shields = 80 gold. Then switch to something else and it's only 4 gold for the rest of the shields. Another trick is to disband some old junk units you might have lying around. A conscript warrior is 2 shields.

 

[Mach]

@Mathias, yeah sorry, braincramp there. I'll amend my post for clarity.

 

[Mach]

Hey, I looked at the save. Should I research education? A university might get us to mil trad faster, especially if someone else gets invention and we can trade for it. Also, it'll kill the Great Lib faster. Just a thought...

I'll play tomorrow. I'll get our workers moving. I'll make a furs colony with our last worker. We should be getting new slaves very soon; I'll use some to build roads, and move others to be barb-supressing scouts in the east. Any other suggestions welcome.

 

[MeteorPunch]

lurker's comment: I never knew about short-rushing either. That's a great strategy.

 

[Mathias]

Education does sound like a good idea. We might as well go for Cop's while were at it. By the time we get Astronomy, we should definitely be able to trade for Invention. I think it would be a good idea to sell Engineering cheap. The AI has a tendency to avoid Engineering, but when they get it, they'll usually pick up Invention and Gunpowder before continuing along the north branch. Also, send one of our riders north to meet the Babylonians. Germany is out there somewhere, too.

 

[Mach]

Preturn (250AD)
Get that worker moving, get our city growing. Also move our city garrison east for barb supression.
(I) zzz

T1 (260AD)
Whack-a-barb.
Move riders off towars Calix, whack a jag on the way.
(I) German walks out of the fog, up by the furs.
Eng --> Theo in 11

T2 (270AD)
Sell Eng to the Germans and Romans for barely anything. The Koreans already had it...
Burn Calix, take 5 slaves.
(I) For reference, I count 4 barb-hunting Roman archers around our city.

T3 (280AD)
Burn Tlat, take 2 slaves.
(I) Reg archer comes out of the fog and kills a rider.

T4 (290AD)
Kill the archer with an elite, and get a leader!
(I) zzz

T5 (300AD)
Whack-a-barb, find the camp east of Xochi. That'll delay my burning the city...
(I) zzz

T6 (310AD)
Whack the camp.
Burn Xochi, take 1 slave.
Burn Tlaco, take 2 slaves.
Whack an Aztec spear/settler pair.
(I) MDI holds off an archer, a horsebarb appears in the east.

T7 (320AD)
Found the furs colony, lux to 0%.
Kill a jag, promote to elite.
Burn Tzint, take 4 workers.
(I) zzz

T8 (330AD)
Setting up for Tenoch
(I) Bab sword shows up.

T9 (340AD)
Sell Eng to the Babs.
Kill a jag with a rider, promote to elite.
(I) Jag takes back one of the slaves, oops, my bad.

T10 (350AD)
Burn Tenoch, lose 1 MDI! Take 6 more slaves.


Ok, that's it for me. Aztecs are as good as gone, I think. I built 5 new riders, losing a rider and an MDI. Mathias, I've left you some movement on a few riders. The two sitting on the hill next to the Aztec worker can still attack this turn.

I have a few slaves on barb supression -- one near the iron colony (that archer can go hunt things now), one east of there (about to take the place of that archer), and three roading a hill between Bejing and the horse colony (one of those slaves should stay on that hill).

There are three main roading parties guarded by riders. One of them, just north of Bejing, should be done in 3 turns, so that rider can go back on the attack (once he's healed, he just killed a barbhorse), and I guess the slaves can go on barb supression, or maybe they can road east. The other two parties are roading north towards the Romans. Plus a mini party on the coast guarded by a wounded MDI. All this plus the 6 we just took at Tenoch...we really have more slaves than I know what to do with.

I noticed the Romans don't have iron or horses, so we may want to just turn on them once the Aztecs are done, they should be easy pickings. Just be careful and keep losses low. And we'll need to take care of those barb hunting archers they have scattered around... In fact, we're the only civ in the world with both horses and iron, which is nice.

I guess our leader can go to our university, I can't think of anything better.

Good luck, Mathias!

save
the big picture

 

[Disenfrancised]

20 Slaves?
This may end up not being particularly difficult

 

[Mach]

This may end up not being particularly difficult

Let's not count our chickens! It's not over yet, by a long shot -- by giving away eng like we did, we speeded the ai's to gunpowder, and our riders will stall against muskets. And someday when we have mil trad, I think we'll only get a new cav every 3 turns if we use short-rushing, which really isn't a lot -- we'll have to restrict ourselves from losing more than that, or our forces will dwindle.

But things do look good, we seem to be in control of 2 horses and 2 irons right now. If we can start pushing the Romans back before they get iron, then we'll be in control of 3 irons. That would be sweet...

The Koreans didn't expand west at all during my turns, but that's bound to start soon. We can't let them get near our colonies, so we're gonna have to do something about that someday.

 

[Mathias]

Got it. Will play tonight.

Something just occurred to me...

2230 BC (3)
Worker south to road toward dyes
Hut near Rome gives barbarians

2190 BC (4)
Exploring warrior attacks and is killed
Barb camp has appeared south of our city
Kill one barbarian
Worker retreats

The worker stepped south from the cattle, revealing the hill that is one tile west of the hill that has iron. The barb camp was not there in 2230 BC. During the interturn, the map centered near the exloring warrior when the barbarians up there moved. In 2190 BC, after the warrior was killed, the map centered on an active unit near our city. The barb camp had appeared during the interturn on the hill that was in line-of-sight of our worker. Has this been studied? Do workers not suppress barbarians? I'll ask this in Quick Answers.

Edit: Workers and slaves most definitely do not suppress barbarians.

 

[Mach]

Yep, I see the answer. (Thanks there Renata!) Sorry guys, I didn't know that. I guess it's the same for outposts, too. We could do it anyway, in a few places, and have a rider in Bejing handy to pop any camps that appear, it could be a nice little source of revenue...

I'm sure you'll figure something out, Mathias.

 

[Mathias]

350 AD (0)
Capture worker with vet rider, colonize silks.

IT: Rider >> Rider
Rome begins Sun Tzu's

360 AD (1)
Maneuvering, healing.

IT: Theology >> Education

370 AD (2)
Sci 80% Edu in 13 with -1 gpt
Vet rider kills wandering Aztec spearman, -2hp
Bab sword near Roman border

IT: Korea demands Theology, then declares when I refuse.
Rider >> Rider
Aztecs building Sun Tzu's

380 AD (3)
German archer and two Bab AC near Roman borders
Sci 70% - GA ends, and we may need gold

IT: Golden Age has ended
Babylon building Sun Tzu's

390 AD (4)
Burn Malinalco, take 2 slaves (one captured worker)
Position a few slaves near Beijing to prevent Aztec landing
Short-rush 8 shields for 32 gold
Sci 60% Edu in 19 with +10 gpt

400 AD (5)
Rider sees vet Korean archer in east

IT: Korea pulls Babylon in against us! (There are now 4 Bab AC and 1 sword south of the Roman borders)
Rider >> Rider

410 AD (6)
Burn Atzcapotzalco, take 4 slaves (two captured workers)
After much thought, I decide to give the Aztecs a break. We get 3 gold and a slave for peace. Sell the slave to Germany for 26 gold, then build an embassy with Germany for 60 gold. Give Germany Theology for RoP, Ally vs Bab, ally vs Korea, 11 gold and the slave. They wouldn't take Chivalry, and the Aztecs already had Theology.
Planting two forest to bring Beijing up to 24 spt with zero growth for Riders in three turns without rushing.
Whack the Korean archer.
Sci 40% for 1 turn to get enough gold for one more short-rush.

IT: Bab units retreat, heading toward Germany
Palace rises into the clouds

420 AD (7)
Whack the Bab sword
Short-rush for 32gold
Sci 70% Edu in 14 with +2 gpt

IT: Rome begin Great Wall after completing Temple of Artemis
Germany switches to HG, also begins Sun Tzu's

430 AD (8)
Whack-a-barb
Two elite and one vet rider kill three Bab AC, vet promotes

IT: Vet Korean archer takes 2 HP off of rider
Rider >> Rider
Babylon switch to Sun Tzu's
Korea shuffles wonders: Sun Tzu's, GLib, Kt, GW
Germany completes HG

440 AD (9)
Find and disperse barb camp
Whack Korean archer

IT: Korea shuffles some more: KT, GW, GLight

450 AD (10)


I have company company just now. Quickly: Pulling all units away from Aztec/Rome area. Rome have ToA, so temple in Lutetia will take silks in a few turns. Active slaves are available to do whatever. There are no enemy units this side of the scouting rider. More comments when I have time.

 

[commodified]

Wow, this game is advancing very quickly.

Can you explain your rationale with regards to attacking Korea and the Babylonians at once with the meagre help of the Germans? From my brief glance it seems like all this will accomplish is getting the Germans killed off and bolstering the military power of both Hammurabi and... whatever the Korean guy's name is.

I would think we should attack Rome before they link up this iron.



Also, what's this guy doing? Just scouting?



I'll wait to play until I hear from you. I'd also appreciate any advice you all can muster about bringing the 12-rider pain to the Babs and Koreans.

Cheers!