May 9th, 1945

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Kullervo

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Today is the Russian Victory day. The origins are May 9, 1945. I just found this link to a historical video about the war on the Russian front, created in honor of this holiday. It is in Russian, but I have no doubt that even if you do not understand Russian, you'd be able to get most of it. If you can understand Russian, I think you just HAVE to see this.

http://www.pobediteli.ru/flash.html?DR=0
 
Nicely done, but part about Warsaw Uprising seem to be... not entirely true :D But my Russian is not very good, so maybe it's only my mistake.
 
Oh, come on, we all know that Russians wanted uprising to fall :) The most significant is the fact that when uprising started suddenly all soviet aircraft disappeared from the sky above Warsaw. The practically non-existant Luftwaffe was totally safe and could bomb Warsaw with its remaining Ju-87. Add to this closing soviet airfields for allied planes.

In this presentation we can see a short video "Soviet Aid to Warsaw". It's pure propaganda, probably filmed as propaganda in the first place.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining or anything like this - it's history, nothing more. It passed. We live on. I just don't approve soviet propaganda, that's all ;)
 
Does anyone approve of it? It's practically impossible to read Russian literature from about 1920-1950. Most of it is actually great stuff, but just SOOO Communist/Socialist/Stalinist centered...
 
Soviet Propaganda, that was (I think) the theme of the last few posts.
 
Soviet Propaganda, that was (I think) the theme of the last few posts.

About Soviet airdrops:

From September 13 on the Soviets began their own airdrop raids with supplies, and dropped about 55 tons in total. The drops continued until September 28.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lack_of_outside_support_in_the_Warsaw_Uprising#The_airdrops

About ability of Soviets to help uprising, here is opinion of David Glantz:

The Warsaw Uprising:
No case of Red Army action or inaction on the Soviet-German front has generated more heated controversy then its operations east of Warsaw in August and September 1944 during the Polish Home Army’s Warsaw uprising against German occupation forces. While most Western historians have routinely accused Stalin of perfidy and deliberate treachery in permitting the Germans to destroy the Warsaw Poles, Russian historians counter by asserting the Red Army made every reasonable attempt to assist the beleaguered Poles. In fact, in late July 1944 the Stavka ordered its 2nd Tank Army to race northward to Warsaw with the 47th Army and a cavalry corps in its wake. After encountering two Wehrmacht divisions defending the southern approaches to Warsaw, the tank army tried to bypass the German defenses from the northeast but ran into a counterstroke by four Wehrmacht panzer divisions, which severely mauled the tank army and forced it to withdraw on 5 August. During the ensuing weeks, while the Warsaw uprising began, matured, but ultimately failed, the forces on the 1st Belorussian Front’s right wing continued their advance against Army Group Center northeast of Warsaw. For whatever motive, however, the forces on the 1st Belorussian Front’s right wing focused on defending the Magnuszew bridgehead south of Warsaw, which was being subjected to heavy German counterattacks throughout mid-August, and the forces on the front’s left wing continued their advance to the Bug River north of Warsaw and attempted to seize crossings over the river necessary to facilitate future offensive operations. Throughout the entire period up to 20 August 1944, the 1st Belorussian Front’s 47th Army remained the only major Red Army forces deployed across the Vistula River opposite Warsaw. On that date the 1st Polish Army joined it. Red Army forces north of Warsaw finally advanced across the Bug River on 3 September, closed up to the Narew River the following day, and fought their way into bridgeheads across the Narew on 6 September. Lead elements of two Polish divisions finally assaulted across the Vistula River into Warsaw on 13 September but made little progress and were evacuated back across the river ten days later. Political considerations and motivations aside, an objective consideration of combat in the Warsaw region indicates that, prior to early September, German resistance was sufficient to halt any Soviet assistance to the Poles in Warsaw, were it intended. Thereafter, it would have required a major reorientation of military efforts from Magnuszew in the south or, more realistically, from the Bug and Narew River axis in the north in order to muster sufficient force to break into Warsaw. And once broken into, Warsaw would have been a costly city to clear of Germans and an unsuitable location from which to launch a new offensive.

http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publications/sg-war41-45.pdf
 
About Warsaw Uprising - then yes, it's a propaganda. I don't know if all of it is propaganda, because I did not watch the rest. But "liberation of Europe" is a next "propaganda" thing. All who know history knows that calling it "liberation" is not a good description. It is as "liberation" as "shooting someone in the head" is curing a brain cancer. But that's the thing where Russians and non Russians have troubles to agree and everyone thinks his answer is correct, his opponent's answer is false and he is not right because of nationalistic purposes.

Just accept that there are two completely different views on that period, learn both and decide which one you like more.
 
About Soviet airdrops:

From September 13 on the Soviets began their own airdrop raids with supplies, and dropped about 55 tons in total. The drops continued until September 28.

September 13. That's a month and 13 days after it started. And that's the period when almost all knew the uprising will fall. Why western Allies managed to conduct airdrops few days after it started and they were stationing in Italy or Britain while Soviets were merely 10-20 km from Warsaw? ;) Why they also denied access to their airfields? Allied airdrops would be much valuable and helpful (bigger payload) then. Moreover - if I am not mistaken Russiand were dropping amunition to russian weapons while AK soldiers had mostly german weapons. Soviet airdrops were also more "primitive" - they did not use parachutes (though it was normal for them as far as I know, so it was not a "vile action").

And the next thing - on 29 and 30 of July (two and one day before uprising) Moscow radio broadcasted "messages" to Poles. It was something like "Poles! Attack Germans, we will advance and help you!" ;)

Next thing - Russians had then an incredible advantage in soldiers, tanks and artillery (at least 7:1 in soldiers).

And some interesting links:


http://www.warsawuprising.com/doc/Roosevelt_Churchill_Stalin.htm

9. Aug. 24, 1944 message from F. D. Roosevelt to Winston Churchill:

"... I do not consider it advantageous to the long range general war prospect for me to join with you in the proposed message to U.J. [Uncle Joe]."

Unlce Joe! :lol: (you should read all, it's just the funniest quote :D)

"Permission was sought from the Russians to run a form of aerial shuttle service," said Fairly. "That is, our aircraft could fly to Warsaw, drop their supplies and carry on the short distance to a Russian airfield. Had this permission been granted, the assistance to Warsaw would have been much easier and greater. Some allied pilots with damaged planes and malfunctioning instruments strayed over Russian-held territory and were fired on by our so-called allies, the Soviets."

William Fairly, a South African pilot.

http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/warsaw/c1.html

And:

Operation Ostra Brama (lit. Operation Sharp Gate) was an armed conflict during World War II between the Polish Home Army and the Nazi German occupiers of Wilno. It began on July 7, 1944, as part of a Polish national uprising, Operation Tempest, and lasted until July 14, 1944. Though the Germans were defeated, the following day the Soviet Red Army entered the city and the Soviet NKVD proceeded to intern Polish soldiers and to arrest their officers. Several days later, the remains of the Polish Home Army retreated into the forests, and the Soviets were in control of the city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ostra_Brama

The Lwów Uprising was the armed struggle started by the Polish resistance movement organization Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa) against the Nazi occupiers in Lwów, during World War II. It started on July 23, 1944 as a part of a plan of all-national uprising codenamed Operation Tempest. The fights lasted until July 27 and resulted in liberation of the city. However, shortly afterwards the Polish soldiers were arrested by the invading Soviets and either forced to join the Red Army or sent to the Gulags. The city itself was occupied by the Soviet Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lwów_Uprising



It is entirely clear - Soviets wanted uprising to fall. Everything else (like battle of Radzymin etc.) is just an excuse. Still popular though as I see.
 
September 13. That's a month and 13 days after it started. And that's the period when almost all knew the uprising will fall. Why western Allies managed to conduct airdrops few days after it started and they were stationing in Italy or Britain while Soviets were merely 10-20 km from Warsaw? ;) Why they also denied access to their airfields? Allied airdrops would be much valuable and helpful (bigger payload) then. Moreover - if I am not mistaken Russiand were dropping amunition to russian weapons while AK soldiers had mostly german weapons. Soviet airdrops were also more "primitive" - they did not use parachutes (though it was normal for them as far as I know, so it was not a "vile action").
So, airdrops actually happened, and "propaganda movies" of evil Soviets described things which took place in reality?

And the next thing - on 29 and 30 of July (two and one day before uprising) Moscow radio broadcasted "messages" to Poles. It was something like "Poles! Attack Germans, we will advance and help you!" ;)
Nonsense. Read the text of radio broadcast.

Next thing - Russians had then an incredible advantage in soldiers, tanks and artillery (at least 7:1 in soldiers).
Where? Under Warsaw? :)
Glantz doesn't think so.

It is entirely clear - Soviets wanted uprising to fall. Everything else (like battle of Radzymin etc.) is just an excuse.
Soviets didn't want uprising to fall. They didn't have enough forces to start major offensive under Warsaw in August 1944.
And they didn't want to start misplaced offensive with forces that they had - which would mean wasting thousands of soldiers' lives. Just to help uprising which was not coordinated with them, started at a wrong time and organized by Polish government in exile which had always been hostile towards USSR. Can't blame Soviets for such decision.
 
So, airdrops actually happened, and "propaganda movies" of evil Soviets described things which took place in reality?

I did not say they did not happen. I'm only trying to explain why it happened. Soviets provided "help" (airdrops) when it was clear the uprising will fall. So they dropped some supplies only to look better in the eyes of western Allies. It was like calling 911 two hours after someone died in a crash. It is totally ridiculous, but after all you may tell your friends, who have no idea what happened "hey, but I called 911, so I helped him greatly, nearly saved his life" ;)

And that's probably the main purpose of that video. "We really did our best to help them, look". But in reality - they not only didn't help, but hindered others from helping.

Nonsense. Read the text of radio broadcast.

[Moscow, in Polish, July 29, 1944. 8:15 p.m.]

Appeal to Warsaw: Fight The Germans!

No doubt Warsaw already hears the guns of the battle which is soon to bring her liberation. Those who have never bowed their heads to the Hitlerite power will again, as in 1939, join battle with the Germans, this time for decisive action. The Polish Army now entering Polish territory, trained in the Soviet Union, is now joined to the People's Army to form the Corps of the Polish Armed Forces, the armed arm of our nation in its struggle for independence.

Its ranks will be joined tomorrow by the sons of Warsaw. They will all together, with the Allied Army pursue the enemy westwards, wipe out the Hitlerite vermin from Polish land and strike a mortal blow at the beast of Prussian Imperialism. For Warsaw, which did not yield but fought on, the hour of action has already arrived. The Germans will no doubt try to defend themselves in Warsaw and add new destruction and thousands of victims. Our houses and our parks, our bridges and our railway stations, our factories and public buildings will be turned into defence positions.
They will expose the city to ruin and its inhabitants to death. They will try to take away all the most precious possessions and turn into dust all that they have to leave behind. It is, therefore, a hundred times more necessary than ever to remember that in the flood of Hitlerite destruction all is lost that is not saved by active effort; that by direct, active struggle in the streets of Warsaw, in its houses, factories and stores, we not only hasten the moment of final liberation, but also save a Nation's property and the lives of our brothers.

http://www.warsawuprising.com/doc/kosciuszko.htm

For me it sounds like encouraging people to start fighting. I know that AK's decicions were not based on such broadcasts, but still such words were aired.

Where? Under Warsaw?

I would have to search for proper numbers, but significant Russian advantage is unquestionable.

Soviets didn't want uprising to fall.

Oh, really?:

On August 14, General Bor ordered the Home Army units outside of Warsaw to come to the rescue of the fighting capital; these units were intercepted by the Soviets on their way to Warsaw, disarmed and interned (e.g., detachments of the 3rd, the 9th, the 10th, and the 30th infantry divisions). The High Command of the Home Army was informed of these developments through dispatches and by the commander of the Lublin district on August 26, September 3 and September 21, 1944.

;)

and organized by Polish government in exile which had always been hostile towards USSR.

Can't say it was a great hostility, they still were keeping diplomatic relations. Relations were very cold, but I believe they had a reason. But cold relations between both governments are not an excuse for Soviet hostility towards AK soldiers. You have info about previous "cooperation" between AK and RKKA - in Wilno and Lwów. And you still believe in "Soviet help"?

Can't blame Soviets for such decision

I too. It was good for them, so why they shouldn't do it? In Wilno and Lwów (and other places) they had to arrest and disarm AK soldiers themselves, here they simple let Germans do it. They had less "enemies" to fight later (remaining AK soldiers kept figthing with Soviets and Polish traitors even few years after the war ended). I am only against spreading propaganda about "good" Red Army which "liberated" Europe. It's history - we can't change it.
 
I think that it is impossible to say that the Red Army was a glorious force of liberation in Europe... what the Soviet army did to Berlin was perhaps more extreme than the rape of Nanking several years previously. At the same time, though, it cannot be denied that the Soviet Army did release people imprisoned in concentration camps, and there were programs to help them recover. Now obviously, this was by far not the case for all prisoners. Russian POW's were actually put into Russian jails for allowing themselves to be captured. Just imagine, spending three years being tortured and starved in a concentration camp, and then liberated for a day, only to be put into jail for a further twenty years for something that you had no reasonable control over.

As for the Warsaw uprising, I think (and this is only what I gleaned from about 10 different sources, both Russian and Western) that initially, the Soviet Union wanted the uprising to succeed, because it would be a blow to the German occupation of the city, and the Red Army would find it easier to capture it. However, material support was too difficult to provide, as the Germans had plenty of army divisions between the front and Warsaw. Eventually, when it became clear that the uprising was doomed to failure, the Soviet Union decided to reinforce their actual army instead. Possibly, the Soviet Union could have succeeded in helping the Warsaw Uprising, but it would have come at a tremendous cost in equipment destroyed. I doubt that it was possible to do an airlift or bombing run without half the planes being destroyed by German anti-aircraft fire.
 
I did not say they did not happen. I'm only trying to explain why it happened. Soviets provided "help" (airdrops) when it was clear the uprising will fall. So they dropped some supplies only to look better in the eyes of western Allies. It was like calling 911 two hours after someone died in a crash. It is totally ridiculous, but after all you may tell your friends, who have no idea what happened "hey, but I called 911, so I helped him greatly, nearly saved his life" ;)

And that's probably the main purpose of that video. "We really did our best to help them, look". But in reality - they not only didn't help, but hindered others from helping.
What you are explaining is Polish version of events. A brief text on the site doesn't give any versions - it gives only description of a few actual events and admits controversy about the issue. If you are unhappy that site intended to commemorate Soviet veterans, doesn't fully reflect Polish victimhood, write your own articles.

For me it sounds like encouraging people to start fighting. I know that AK's decicions were not based on such broadcasts, but still such words were aired.
It explicitly encourage Polish people to join pro-Soviet Anders army, not AK.

I would have to search for proper numbers, but significant Russian advantage is unquestionable.
You would, and it will be difficult for you to explain how Russians having 7:1 advantage, suffered defeat under Radzymin. And after that, during all August, desperately tried to secure Magnushev bridgehead (BTW, driving many German forces away from Warsaw). Something was wrong with their "advantage".

I am only against spreading propaganda about "good" Red Army which "liberated" Europe.
The site doesn't contain propaganda, it gives factual information without interpretations. It is commemoration of veterans who fought to drive Nazis off from USSR and Eastern Europe, including Poland. If you feel that people who fought Nazis on your soil don't deserve to be respected and that they are described as "too good" in this commemoration, you'd better read special Polish sites which are "free from Soviet propaganda".
 
I think that it is impossible to say that the Red Army was a glorious force of liberation in Europe... what the Soviet army did to Berlin was perhaps more extreme than the rape of Nanking several years previously.

Well, it's actually not a good example. While Russians could have behaved in a more... civilised way (English also suffered greatly, not as incredibly greatly as Russians though, but they maintained discipline. I don't count Americans, because their civilians did not suffer at all. Also Poles who fought on all fronts were not raping etc.) I actually understand them (a little). Germans were diong terrible things to the Russians, so Russians did terrible things to them.

It is also clear that noone wanted to "liberate" Germany, but to capture it. Russians though tend to name their all conquest a "liberation". It's a very tricky, but unfortunately cannot be considered "true liberation".

Just imagine, spending three years being tortured and starved in a concentration camp, and then liberated for a day, only to be put into jail for a further twenty years for something that you had no reasonable control over.

Imagine also this - you fought with Germans in 1939. You retreated then to the east of your country and was captured by Soviets. Then you were sent to Siberia. After German attack on Russia you suddenly became Russian "ally". They offered you to join Soviet controlled "Polish Army", but you refused. You followed one of your generals to Iran and then to Palestine. Then you fought all the way through Africa and Italy. After the war your country was encouraging you to return. You returned, and they put you into prison. Released after few years, but for many years you were oficially called "a traitor". That's also disgusting.

As for the Warsaw uprising, I think (and this is only what I gleaned from about 10 different sources, both Russian and Western) that initially, the Soviet Union wanted the uprising to succeed, because it would be a blow to the German occupation of the city, and the Red Army would find it easier to capture it.

Initially - they did completely nothing. They also were actively preventing western Allies from helping. So it is not true.

However, material support was too difficult to provide, as the Germans had plenty of army divisions between the front and Warsaw.

They were ~10 km from them. Russians had an advantage. There was no plenty divisions - moreover - it was clear the Germans will bring reinforcements and crush uprising if Russians do nothing. And that's what they did - both sides. Russians did nothing, Germans crushed the uprising.

Possibly, the Soviet Union could have succeeded in helping the Warsaw Uprising

Russians had no interest in helping the uprising. From their point of view two their enemies started to kill themselves. Would you do something different than sit, bring popcorn and watch? :D

I doubt that it was possible to do an airlift or bombing run without half the planes being destroyed by German anti-aircraft fire.

112 out of 637 Polish and 133 out of 735 British and South African airman were shot down (about 12% of the 296 planes taking part in the operations were lost). Now imagine that you don't have to fly through half of Europe to do it. You just take off from Soviet airport, fly to Warsaw, drop supplies and return to Soviet airport.

So it's not an excuse.

What you are explaining is Polish version of events.

You did not write anything about access to Soviet airdrops, arresting of the AK soldiers and disarming those who were going to Warsaw to help the fighting Poles. I am trying to present facts (arrests, lack of access to airports, disarming etc.).

It is absolutely clear that we have different versions, but someone's has to be right, and someone's has to be wrong. I believe I presented few interesting facts that shows us the Soviets wanted uprising to fall, that's it.

If you are unhappy that site intended to commemorate Soviet veterans, doesn't fully reflect Polish victimhood, write your own articles.

I am not unhappy of commemoriating Sovet veterans, I am only pointing few innacuracies in this presentation. They surely deserve memory and you should be proud of their actions for your motherland, but we should all remember the truth, not "nice and sweet articles which glorify things not actually worth gloryfying". I am sure this presentation is excellent in presenting defense of the Soviet Union, but not all things presented there have to be perfect. You are simply generalising. It is clear that this presentation was made to present Red Army and Soviet Union in the good light. Our job is to remind that in fact it was not so good light.

We write our own articles, and you are free to point inaccuracies in them. All you have to do is write them and explin why do you think so. I did it.

You would, and it will be difficult for you to explain how Russians having 7:1 advantage, suffered defeat under Radzymin. And after that, during all August, desperately tried to secure Magnushev bridgehead (BTW, driving many German forces away from Warsaw). Something was wrong with their "advantage".

I'll try to find something as soon as I can, right now I really have no access to any data. Keep in mind that I am not saying that you are surely wrong.

The site doesn't contain propaganda, it gives factual information without interpretations. It is commemoration of veterans who fought to drive Nazis off from USSR and Eastern Europe, including Poland. If you feel that people who fought Nazis on your soil don't deserve to be respected and that they are described as "too good" in this commemoration, you'd better read special Polish sites which are "free from Soviet propaganda".

It was made by Russians and is presenting pure Russian point of view. I do not blame them for this. But after the war we had an occasion to learn "Russian view on history". How do you think World War II looked in comunistic books? ;) No word about Ribbentropp-Mołotov, 17 IX 1939, Katyń Massacre etc. Entire history was falsified only to look "better". Russians had a purpose to force others to believe in "liberation", "good Red Army" and forget about such things as cooperation with Nazis in 1939 (also military cooperation and after that - a joint Nazi-Soviet parade in Brześć) and arresting AK soldiers. World War Two (or Great Patriotic War as they call it) was an amazing struggle for them, won by them. It is natural they consider them nearly as saints and great heroes and can't understand why someone other may don't share their opinion.

Not so long ago I asked a Russian a one thing - imagine a situaton:

You see a woman being attacked by a man in a dark alley. You of course rush to help her. ou knock down a thief and grab a money he stole. What do you do after that?

If you return her money and help her reach home, then you are a hero.

But how could we call you if you punch her in the face and run away with her money? That's definatly not a heroic action.

The guy who returned her money is American, British, Pole etc. They truly liberated other nations. The guy who punched her in the face and run away with money is a Russian. That's what they did with half of Europe.

Half of Europe have no reason to consider Red Army "heroes" - Russians have and only them. The main problem is that they cannot realise this and want to convince all others to their point of view. Right now we can sit down and calmly look at the history and decide what are the facts - what all those people did and what they did not. And facts tells us that in Uprising's case they Russians did not do anything to help it and wanted it to fall.

Do not get it personal - I'm not your enemy.


But, as far as I see, you seem to run away from few things I wrote here.
 
Not so long ago I asked a Russian a one thing - imagine a situaton:

You see a woman being attacked by a man in a dark alley. You of course rush to help her. ou knock down a thief and grab a money he stole. What do you do after that?

If you return her money and help her reach home, then you are a hero.

But how could we call you if you punch her in the face and run away with her money? That's definatly not a heroic action.

The guy who returned her money is American, British, Pole etc. They truly liberated other nations. The guy who punched her in the face and run away with money is a Russian. That's what they did with half of Europe.

Yes maybe they should have left you to the designs of the Nazis. Surely a brighter future awaited.
 
You did not write anything about access to Soviet airdrops, arresting of the AK soldiers and disarming those who were going to Warsaw to help the fighting Poles. I am trying to present facts (arrests, lack of access to airports, disarming etc.).

It is absolutely clear that we have different versions, but someone's has to be right, and someone's has to be wrong. I believe I presented few interesting facts that shows us the Soviets wanted uprising to fall, that's it.
I did write about all these things in another thread. The problem is that the site has very little to do with Warsaw uprising as Soviet participation in it was very limited and mostly consisted of airdrops after 14 September. The description of uprising consists of a few paragraphs and surely it wasn't intended to describe all related issues in details - just as another materials from site doesn't say anything about El-Alamein or Midway battles.

The text contains just a few facts, correctness of which nobody including you have challenged yet. The existing controversy is mentioned particularly. The only concrete thing which you criticized so far was (factually correct) video of Soviet airdrops - which you disliked with reasoning that it looks like "Soviet propaganda".

I am not unhappy of commemoriating Sovet veterans, I am only pointing few innacuracies in this presentation.
I didn't see in your posts where you point out inaccuracies in that brief text. Please quote what is wrong there, specifically.

It was made by Russians and is presenting pure Russian point of view.
What lead you to such conclusion? As far as I understood, the only material from the site you've seen so far is very short page about Warsaw uprising, which was not indended to fully cover all aspects of it, just to show a few facts and admit controversy. The site is not about AK or Poland - it is about Soviet soldiers, who, by the way, had nothing to do with political decisions, they just fought and died fighting with Nazis in your country. But for Poles it's apparently not enough to admit their good deeds for Poland, not to mention considering them heroes.
 
Yes maybe they should have left you to the designs of the Nazis. Surely a brighter future awaited.
Considering the Reich's economy was so bad it would have collapsed in a decade - no more - most non-Jews may actually have been better off under the Germans than 50 years of Soviet rule. But this is a ridiculous strawman, Cheezy, since it was the Germans who attacked the Russians, not the other way around. The Russians invaded enemy territory when they entered German-controlled Poland - literally, as a matter of fact, since it was included in the Greater German Reich. They were no more liberating it than they liberated Prussia.
 
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