TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Well caught Space 
Ted
Ted
mb2-a space oddity
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
I've just had a look at this save. There is a good gpt deal available with the Greeks for steam, but maybe we should just give it to them.
Also there are a number of cities on library builds. I would think it was probably a good idea just to switch these to riflemen.
Although we have 100 native workers it wouldn't hurt to get a few more just to slap the rails down very quickly, and get rid of the last of the jungle.
Egypt has a monopoly on Communism, but I don't think it's worth stealing as we don't need it yet and we don't really want to bankrupt the other civs as it will hut their research.
I wonder if we will ever go to war again in this game?
Also there are a number of cities on library builds. I would think it was probably a good idea just to switch these to riflemen.
Although we have 100 native workers it wouldn't hurt to get a few more just to slap the rails down very quickly, and get rid of the last of the jungle.
Egypt has a monopoly on Communism, but I don't think it's worth stealing as we don't need it yet and we don't really want to bankrupt the other civs as it will hut their research.
I wonder if we will ever go to war again in this game?
I'm already playing and halfway through the turns, but you won't be disappointed.. a lot of what you say here, you will see back in my report... amazing! 
@Ted: Yeah, I was kinda proud of the quick reaction, but then Mad's move wasn't totally unexpected. 
Here's the log:
Goals for this set of turns:
Try to pump up the Ai a bit, otherwise this game will take forever. We are at a point where we have nothing to fear from the AI, and can handle any threat.
Rail everything in sight.
Pre-turn:
Switch some Library builds to other stuff. We need to watch out and not trigger an 100k culture before we can build a space ship.
Sell Steam Power to Greece for WM, 41gpt and 57gold.
Physics to Babylon for WM and 11g (I wanna know where they are, but I still can't find them
.)
Steam Power to the Aztec for WM and 5gold (all they can afford).
Gift Persia Coal (wow, that was counter-intuitive...)
Sell our WM for Egypts' WM and 7gold (the only ones who don't need our help).
I won't gift Coal to the Viks, they will make it on their own and the Mongols are just hopeless.
IT:
Cleo wants to buy 3 luxes, we settle on just Wines for 24gpt.
X-man wants Wines too, I didn't know he had any money..., when I click negotiate, it appears that he hasn't. Sell him saltpeter for 4gpt.
Istanbul Market -> Aqueduct
Ur Courthouse -> Settler
Damascus Court -> Worker
Kufah worker -> Wealth
Anjar Lib -> Ironclad
Aden Worker -> Cathedral
Mansura Worker -> Worker
Pithom 'duct -> Market
1355AD - turn 1:
Hurry Temples in the North of the Bab island.
Gift coal to the Aztecs
Gift Steam Power to the Iroquois
'Sell' Steam Power to the Mongols for WM and 12g
Gift Coal to the Greek.
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
The Aztec complain about our troops, we comply.
Damascus Worker -> Rifle
Khurasan Rifle -> Wealth
Mansura Worker -> Worker
Lagash Temple -> Worker
Nippur Temple -> Harbor
sariqum Temple -> Harbor
New Baghdad Temple -> Harbor
1360AD - turn 2:
Sell WM to viks for WM+8g (all they have)
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
Persia and Egypt declare peace.
Mecca Lib -> Worker
Delhi Court -> Market
Edrin Market -> Bank
Fustat Court -> Rifle
Mansura Worker -> Wealth
Hyderabat Market -> 'duct
1365AD - turn 3:
Wines to Greece for 9gpt.
Dyes to Egypt for 23gpt.
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
We lose our supply of Silks, The Iroq want to extend the Iron for Silk deal, I renegotiate but they only want a straight deal.
Mecca Worker -> Rifle
Aleppo Market -> Bank
Indus Harbor -> Rifle
Sippar 'duct -> Market
1370AD - turn 4:
Gems to Greece for 10gpt.
Wines to Persia for 13gpt.
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
Egypt wants to renew the Saltpeter deal, mmm, I think I won't, she should use her dough for science not units... Trade WM for WM+1g instead.
I do renew the Wines deal with Ragnar, Wines for 23gpt.
Baghdad Rifle -> Cav
Bukhara Lib -> Worker
Mosul Rifle -> Worker
Izibia Harbor -> 'duct
1375AD - turn 5:
Wines to the Aztec for 25gpt.
Sell WM for WM+2g to Korea.
Sell WM to Persia for WM+29g!
We can buy Communism straight now, will wait just a little while longer.
IT:
Ur Settler -> Bank
Ashur Rifle -> Worker
Basra Cathedral -> Rifle
Yamama Cathedral -> Rifle
Mosul Worker -> Worker
Punjab Market -> Court
1380AD - turn 6:
Hurry a couple of buildings in the South.
Think about buying or stealing Communism from Egypt and selling/gifting it around to force the AI to research something else. Stealing is cheaper but we want the world at peace for a while... so I buy Communism from Egypt for WM+7685g.
Sell it to Persia for WM + 1gpt + 33g
Gift it to the other AI who already have Nationalism.
IT:
Persia an Iroquois make peace.
Egypt and Aztec MPP.
Damascus Rifle -> Wealth
Bursa Cathedral -> Worker
Lahore Court -> 'duct
Muscat Cathedral -> Worker
Bukhara Worker -> Wealth
Mosul Worker -> Rifle
1385AD - turn 7:
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
Egypt declares the Viks!
Viks want to renew the Spices deal. I refuse hoping to force them to stop the war soon.
Mecca Rifle -> Worker
Najran Court -> Worker
Bengal Harbor -> Aqueduct
Pune Market -> Bank
1390AD - turn 8
Sell Furs to Korea for 16gpt.
IT:
The Aztecs declare the Viks.
Mecca Worker -> Wealth
Najran Worker -> Wealth
Bursa Worker -> Wealth
Anjar Ironclad -> Worker
Fustat Rifle -> Wealth
Aden Cathedral -> Wealth
Muscat Worker -> Ironclad
Anatalya (our capital!) builds the Iron Works -> Bank
Ganges Harbor -> Market
Aydab riots, it gets a taxman
New Delhi 'duct -> Market
Egypt start Universal Suffrage...
1495AD - turn 9
Try to steal Industry (carefully), fail without getting caught.
Found New Najran to close the coast line on the Bab island -> Harbor
IT:
Greece and Egypt ally against Vikings
Ashur Worker -> Court
Anjar Worker -> Worker
Pollution near Anatalya
Konya Market -> 'duct
Adana Market -> 'duct
New Mecca Market -> 'duct
1400AD - turn 10
We lack the funds to try stealing carefully again, we should try next turn.
Damascus Wealth -> Worker
Mecca Wealth -> Worker
Najran Wealth -> Worker
Mansura Wealth -> Worker
Aden Wealth -> Worker
Hawk WM around.
Persia and Egypt are the only once building railroads. Looking back I probably should've tried to steal rather than buy Communism. The good thing about it is that Egypt will use the money for research. It would be better if one of the others would do some research too.
-----> the waiting game
Here's the log:
Goals for this set of turns:
Try to pump up the Ai a bit, otherwise this game will take forever. We are at a point where we have nothing to fear from the AI, and can handle any threat.
Rail everything in sight.
Pre-turn:
Switch some Library builds to other stuff. We need to watch out and not trigger an 100k culture before we can build a space ship.
Sell Steam Power to Greece for WM, 41gpt and 57gold.
Physics to Babylon for WM and 11g (I wanna know where they are, but I still can't find them
.)Steam Power to the Aztec for WM and 5gold (all they can afford).
Gift Persia Coal (wow, that was counter-intuitive...)
Sell our WM for Egypts' WM and 7gold (the only ones who don't need our help).
I won't gift Coal to the Viks, they will make it on their own and the Mongols are just hopeless.
IT:
Cleo wants to buy 3 luxes, we settle on just Wines for 24gpt.
X-man wants Wines too, I didn't know he had any money..., when I click negotiate, it appears that he hasn't. Sell him saltpeter for 4gpt.
Istanbul Market -> Aqueduct
Ur Courthouse -> Settler
Damascus Court -> Worker
Kufah worker -> Wealth
Anjar Lib -> Ironclad
Aden Worker -> Cathedral
Mansura Worker -> Worker
Pithom 'duct -> Market
1355AD - turn 1:
Hurry Temples in the North of the Bab island.
Gift coal to the Aztecs
Gift Steam Power to the Iroquois
'Sell' Steam Power to the Mongols for WM and 12g
Gift Coal to the Greek.
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
The Aztec complain about our troops, we comply.
Damascus Worker -> Rifle
Khurasan Rifle -> Wealth
Mansura Worker -> Worker
Lagash Temple -> Worker
Nippur Temple -> Harbor
sariqum Temple -> Harbor
New Baghdad Temple -> Harbor
1360AD - turn 2:
Sell WM to viks for WM+8g (all they have)
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
Persia and Egypt declare peace.
Mecca Lib -> Worker
Delhi Court -> Market
Edrin Market -> Bank
Fustat Court -> Rifle
Mansura Worker -> Wealth
Hyderabat Market -> 'duct
1365AD - turn 3:
Wines to Greece for 9gpt.
Dyes to Egypt for 23gpt.
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
We lose our supply of Silks, The Iroq want to extend the Iron for Silk deal, I renegotiate but they only want a straight deal.
Mecca Worker -> Rifle
Aleppo Market -> Bank
Indus Harbor -> Rifle
Sippar 'duct -> Market
1370AD - turn 4:
Gems to Greece for 10gpt.
Wines to Persia for 13gpt.
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
Egypt wants to renew the Saltpeter deal, mmm, I think I won't, she should use her dough for science not units... Trade WM for WM+1g instead.
I do renew the Wines deal with Ragnar, Wines for 23gpt.
Baghdad Rifle -> Cav
Bukhara Lib -> Worker
Mosul Rifle -> Worker
Izibia Harbor -> 'duct
1375AD - turn 5:
Wines to the Aztec for 25gpt.
Sell WM for WM+2g to Korea.
Sell WM to Persia for WM+29g!
We can buy Communism straight now, will wait just a little while longer.
IT:
Ur Settler -> Bank
Ashur Rifle -> Worker
Basra Cathedral -> Rifle
Yamama Cathedral -> Rifle
Mosul Worker -> Worker
Punjab Market -> Court
1380AD - turn 6:
Hurry a couple of buildings in the South.
Think about buying or stealing Communism from Egypt and selling/gifting it around to force the AI to research something else. Stealing is cheaper but we want the world at peace for a while... so I buy Communism from Egypt for WM+7685g.
Sell it to Persia for WM + 1gpt + 33g
Gift it to the other AI who already have Nationalism.
IT:
Persia an Iroquois make peace.
Egypt and Aztec MPP.
Damascus Rifle -> Wealth
Bursa Cathedral -> Worker
Lahore Court -> 'duct
Muscat Cathedral -> Worker
Bukhara Worker -> Wealth
Mosul Worker -> Rifle
1385AD - turn 7:
Lots of Worker moves.
IT:
Egypt declares the Viks!
Viks want to renew the Spices deal. I refuse hoping to force them to stop the war soon.
Mecca Rifle -> Worker
Najran Court -> Worker
Bengal Harbor -> Aqueduct
Pune Market -> Bank
1390AD - turn 8
Sell Furs to Korea for 16gpt.
IT:
The Aztecs declare the Viks.
Mecca Worker -> Wealth
Najran Worker -> Wealth
Bursa Worker -> Wealth
Anjar Ironclad -> Worker
Fustat Rifle -> Wealth
Aden Cathedral -> Wealth
Muscat Worker -> Ironclad
Anatalya (our capital!) builds the Iron Works -> Bank
Ganges Harbor -> Market
Aydab riots, it gets a taxman
New Delhi 'duct -> Market
Egypt start Universal Suffrage...
1495AD - turn 9
Try to steal Industry (carefully), fail without getting caught.
Found New Najran to close the coast line on the Bab island -> Harbor
IT:
Greece and Egypt ally against Vikings
Ashur Worker -> Court
Anjar Worker -> Worker
Pollution near Anatalya
Konya Market -> 'duct
Adana Market -> 'duct
New Mecca Market -> 'duct
1400AD - turn 10
We lack the funds to try stealing carefully again, we should try next turn.
Damascus Wealth -> Worker
Mecca Wealth -> Worker
Najran Wealth -> Worker
Mansura Wealth -> Worker
Aden Wealth -> Worker
Hawk WM around.
Persia and Egypt are the only once building railroads. Looking back I probably should've tried to steal rather than buy Communism. The good thing about it is that Egypt will use the money for research. It would be better if one of the others would do some research too.
-----> the waiting game
@Mad: have you seen this thread on stealing chances? It's worth taking a look at.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Nice progress Space 
I
Ironworks, especially in the Capital
Ted
I
Ironworks, especially in the Capital Ted
Thanks Ted, but actually it didn't really feel like progress. I fear we will have to be very patient to finish this game. I've tried to pamper the AI but I hope it's enough to get them researching again. It's not good that Egypt and the Vikings are at war. I am pleased with the MPP between the Aztec and Egypt. I don't want Egypt to become larger then they are now. That's also the reason why we should pamper Persia, counter intuitive as that is...
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
When we get TOE we can sell the techs to Egypt for huge amounts of money and then give them away to the others. That will slow down egypt.
I don't think we have to panic steal every tech that comes along. Just wait until two civs have it and buy it from the poorest.
The question in my mind is Do we sell luxes to Egypt? The gpt will slow their tech rate down, their extra happiness will speed it up. Which has the highest influence?
As per Spaces previous post and the thread she suggested, it's fairly obvious that waiting for espionage and stealing with a spy would be a good course of action. IMO stealing techs at the moment is just not cost effective.
Remember also the money doesn't go to a civ. If we buy from a civ then they get the money which can go to research.
I don't think we have to panic steal every tech that comes along. Just wait until two civs have it and buy it from the poorest.
The question in my mind is Do we sell luxes to Egypt? The gpt will slow their tech rate down, their extra happiness will speed it up. Which has the highest influence?
As per Spaces previous post and the thread she suggested, it's fairly obvious that waiting for espionage and stealing with a spy would be a good course of action. IMO stealing techs at the moment is just not cost effective.
Remember also the money doesn't go to a civ. If we buy from a civ then they get the money which can go to research.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
We've got the makings of an economic powerhouse Space.
Once all that jungle is cleared and railroaded we'll be able to gift the AI serious money to get them researching faster.
Ted
Once all that jungle is cleared and railroaded we'll be able to gift the AI serious money to get them researching faster.
Ted
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
I hope we're not going to have to invoke the "48 hour rule"
Ted
Thanks for the encouraging words guys.
@Mad: It's not the question how we should slow Egypt down, but how do we get the others to speed up. We can do all sorts of things when more civs are able to get a tech first.
@Ted:
This is another game where we are so strong that we should be aware not to trigger another victory then the one we want. It's true we should make the most of the money we've got, it's the only thing we have (together with the luxes) that we can use to speed up the tech pace in the game.
It's a blessing and a curse theat Egypt and Scandinavia are so far apart. It's good that they can't hurt each other too much, but it'll also probably mean they will stay at war for 20 turns.
@Mad: It's not the question how we should slow Egypt down, but how do we get the others to speed up. We can do all sorts of things when more civs are able to get a tech first.
@Ted:
This is another game where we are so strong that we should be aware not to trigger another victory then the one we want. It's true we should make the most of the money we've got, it's the only thing we have (together with the luxes) that we can use to speed up the tech pace in the game.
It's a blessing and a curse theat Egypt and Scandinavia are so far apart. It's good that they can't hurt each other too much, but it'll also probably mean they will stay at war for 20 turns.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
I don't think that triggering an "accidental" victory will be a problem in this game. Cultural victories are turned off. We don't have to expand our territory or wipe any more of the AI. The only possibility I see is if someone else builds the UN and we win the vote
We should pick one AI (probably Egypt) and fund them (in gpt) for a 6 turn research pace once our economy is capable. Then we can buy the results to fund their next round of research.
Ted
Ah, I missed the part of the cultural victories being turned off. That makes things easier. The only real barrier we'll have is 2050AD..
Of course we'll be the ones to have the UN. A capital with the Iron Works should be able to outproduce the AI on Monarch. If we will be able to throw in a timely pre-build we won't even be biting our nails.
That makes things easier. The only real barrier we'll have is 2050AD..Of course we'll be the ones to have the UN
. A capital with the Iron Works should be able to outproduce the AI on Monarch. If we will be able to throw in a timely pre-build we won't even be biting our nails.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Glad I set your mind at restOriginally posted by a space oddity
Ah, I missed the part of the cultural victories being turned off.
2050 is our hard taget. That's why i suggest concentrating on one AI. We should be able to give away half our income to Egypt and still have more than enough for our needs.
Ted
Hooray
Civ3 Cartographer
Everything looks pretty good, thankfully.
All that money going to Egypt may be detrimental, though. You see, they're going to use it for the war effort rather than research. That AI tends to get into wars when it starts getting rich. That's the bad part about trying to fund their research.
Even so, I don't think we should be stealing so much. Buying tech, even if they're expensive, gets some money into the AI's hands, which is better than sending a few thousand g's down the drain with the possibility of causing a war.
All that money going to Egypt may be detrimental, though. You see, they're going to use it for the war effort rather than research. That AI tends to get into wars when it starts getting rich. That's the bad part about trying to fund their research.
Even so, I don't think we should be stealing so much. Buying tech, even if they're expensive, gets some money into the AI's hands, which is better than sending a few thousand g's down the drain with the possibility of causing a war.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
If we stick to gpt deals then we should be OK.
Even if they wipe out the Vikings they're going to hit OCN pretty soon and I very much doubt they'll carry on warring after that.
Ted
But we can't use gpt deals anymore. 
Something happened somewhere, near this post, the paragraph just after EOT. We have to pay straight for the techs...
Something happened somewhere, near this post, the paragraph just after EOT. We have to pay straight for the techs...
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Egypt is pissed at us but both Scandinavia and Aztecs will do GPT deals. So let's help the Vikings along instead
<edit>
In fact Scandinavia have Spices so let's give them 400gpt for them and see how quickly they take off. We could also sign an MA vs Egypt and weaken them by destroying their infrastructure.
As Egypt aren't scientific it wouldn't matter too much
</edit>
Ted
<edit>
In fact Scandinavia have Spices so let's give them 400gpt for them and see how quickly they take off. We could also sign an MA vs Egypt and weaken them by destroying their infrastructure.
As Egypt aren't scientific it wouldn't matter too much
</edit>
Ted
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
I had a closer look at the save and noted that Egypt has a MPP with the Aztecs.
As an experiment I set up MA vs both Egypt & Aztecs where I could and Trade Embargos where I couldn't.
Everyone on this screen has a Trade Embargo against Egypt & Aztecs. I gave 400gpt to Scandinavia for their Spices and handed out 50gpt here or 100gpt there to get everyone else on board. We're still drawing in 110gpt (I could have much more but I wanted to kick Scandinavia into gear).
I'm not saying that this is the way forward but it does illustrate that gpt deals are still to be had.
If the Egyptians won't play ball then we could strike them (and their pals) from the team
Ted
As an experiment I set up MA vs both Egypt & Aztecs where I could and Trade Embargos where I couldn't.
Everyone on this screen has a Trade Embargo against Egypt & Aztecs. I gave 400gpt to Scandinavia for their Spices and handed out 50gpt here or 100gpt there to get everyone else on board. We're still drawing in 110gpt (I could have much more but I wanted to kick Scandinavia into gear).
I'm not saying that this is the way forward but it does illustrate that gpt deals are still to be had.
If the Egyptians won't play ball then we could strike them (and their pals) from the team
Ted
