mb2-a space oddity

[vbraun]

Just how much sheilds is our capital producing?

Sorry for wasting 3 days. I just coudn't find time for civ...

Mad could you pm me when its my turn. Thx

 

[Brewster]

Sorry about holding up the proceedings but my home pc was neutered by my girlfriend on the weekend and I haven't had time to reformat/reinstall everything. I will let you know when I am able to continue but skip me in the meantime.

 

[a space oddity]

Sorry to hear that Brewster. Hope it'll work out soon.

Girls , never let them touch your toys.

 

[mad-bax]

This is quite difficult.

1400AD: Pre-turn.
Spent all our gold short rushing markets, banks and aqueducts. I am not in the mood for a war ATM, so I am just concerned to get as many cities as possible making money. Probably unpopular.

IBT:
Babylon and Egypt sing MA against Vikings.
Greece and Babylon sign MA against Persia.

1405AD:
Railed stuff.

1410AD:
Railed stuff.

1415AD:
Gave medicine and Communism to the Mongols
Gave communism to the Iroquois
Give Gems and Dyes to the Aztecs
Give incese to Persia.
This might be a but I traded spices with vikings for furs, WM + 1600g

1420AD:
Still railing
Dunno what the vikings used all their gold for. But it's all gone.
Give wines, furs, incense and 150gpt to the iroquois as they are at peace with everyone.

IBT:
Korea and vikings sign a peace deal
Persia want an embargo against Babylon - the settler on a boat state. OK, just for the hell of it.

1425AD:
Sorry this is so boring. Still Railing.

1430AD:
Railing.
About 6 civs learn sanitation. I checked every round, so it must have been turn order that screwed us up.

1435AD:
Stole industrialisation from the Egyptians carefully for 2418g
Sold industrialisation to Aztecs for Sanitation + 41gpt + 110g +WM
Gift Aztecs 100gpt
Switch a gazillion cities to factories and hospitals, depending on food surplus.

IBT:
Scandinavia and Babylon sign peace treaty. The vikings can't find their boat either.
Aztechs start Suffrage
Vikings start Suffrage

1440AD:
Sell Industrialisation to Greeks. They aren't going to help us. But I don't barter the deal.
Gift all other civs to tech parity.

IBT:
Korea and Egypt sign MPP
Persians start Suffrage
Koreans start Suffrage
Iroquois start Suffrage
Greeks start Suffrage
Korea declare on Vikings

1445AD:
Railed stuff
No new techs learned. But some civs are starting to show a gold surplus.

IBT:
Egypt and Vikings sign a peace treaty.
Then Egypt declare war on the vikings

I haven't posted a screenshot as absolutely nothing changed.

We are building hospitals, factories and ducts mainly. We may need to watch our military soon.

We have turn based deals with nearly everyone. The iroquois are getting 150gpt from us and the Aztechs are getting 100gpt from us. Various other civs are getting luxes to keep their sliders down.

I deliberately didn't implement Teds idea because he is up after me, so he can do it far more competently.

The tech pace is worryingly slow though.

The save is

<<here>>.

 

[a space oddity]

Well played again, Mad.

Yes, this is turning out to be a difficult game, in a totally different way then usual. I was told by someone (Ted?) that straight sums mostly gets used for military means (rushings and upgrades), so those will not help us, gpt deals should... we'll see if the Iroquos and Aztec will research something for us.

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by mad-bax
Spent all our gold short rushing markets, banks and aqueducts. I am not in the mood for a war ATM, so I am just concerned to get as many cities as possible making money. Probably unpopular.

Good move MB

Originally posted by mad-bax
This might be a but I traded spices with vikings for furs, WM + 1600g

Yep, definite

Originally posted by mad-bax
Dunno what the vikings used all their gold for. But it's all gone.

Miltary upgrades

Originally posted by mad-bax
Give wines, furs, incense and 150gpt to the iroquois as they are at peace with everyone.

Originally posted by mad-bax
Stole industrialisation from the Egyptians carefully for 2418g
Sold industrialisation to Aztecs for Sanitation + 41gpt + 110g +WM
Gift Aztecs 100gpt
Switch a gazillion cities to factories and hospitals, depending on food surplus.

Yippeee!

Originally posted by mad-bax
Egypt and Vikings sign a peace treaty.
Then Egypt declare war on the vikings

Dumb AI.

Originally posted by mad-bax
I deliberately didn't implement Teds idea because he is up after me, so he can do it far more competently.

Not neccesarily


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

Yes the viking deal was a bit stupid. I should have just given them furs. I'm a bit of a magpie and I wanted to collect all the luxes, but it wasn't really needed.

I think the Egyptians are beginning to feel the effects of being at war so much. They have a cash surplus, that they are not using and they may have lost a couple of cities.

Nice avatar Ted. You're a lot better looking than I imagined.

 

[TedJackson]

OK,

here's the deal. I think we're getting all these wars because the AI haven't reached OCN (Optimum City Number) yet. The only way to stop the wars is to remove a couple of AI from the game.

Egypt is fading fast and isn't scientific so seems to be the favourite. The Aztecs have A MPP with Egypt, again aren't scientific, so they could go too

Our last deal with Egypt expires in 1465 but we have ongoing deals with the Aztecs so we can't join in the attacks on Egypt until they expire (1535AD I think) because we'd trigger the MPP

Before I embark on this course I thought I'd give you all a chance to comment and perhaps come up with alternatives/improvements.

I'll carry on playing up till the crucial moment then resume tomorrow morning or earlier if eveyone make their views known this evening.


Ted

 

[a space oddity]

I like the idea, but this means we should fight but not conquer. Or if (I mean when , knowing who's playing) we do, gift the conquered city to the AI, this should help us in attitutes too.

Should we consider geography? Ie does it matter if the new cities will be far away from their respective cores? Normally I would say that its preferable but in this game I'm not so sure. Maybe it is helpful to make room for the Viks by hitting the Mongols who contributed nothing (apart from a chance to promote units for which I was very grateful).

edit: I've looked at the save but I don't see Egypt missing a city. They *do* have contributed in sciences (very much so), so maybe instead of wiping them of the map, we should help them. Just a thought.

 

[Hooray]

I'm opposed to fighting any more wars. We need to support our rivals, not kill them.

If we're going to gift cities, why not give up some of our holdings in Babylon that we don't need?

Definitely leave Egypt alone. They've been the tech leaders thus far, so we need them.

 

[mad-bax]

My thoughts are these.

I think the main two reasons the AI is not researching are:-

1. Their territory is chronically underimproved.
2. The Egyptians want to be at war ll the time.

I would do three things.
1. Give the 5 cities on the Greek island to the Greeks.
2. Organise a quick decisive war on Egypt and give the captured territory to the Aztecs.
3. Give 5 workers to each of the Greeks, Iroquois, Aztecs, Koreans and vikings every set of ten turns.

We currently have 117 native workers. It won't be long b4 we think about losing some of them anyway.

I would aim to have the Greeks, Persians, Koreans and Aztecs strong. The Mongols and the vikings should be use for leader fishing at some point.

If we are quick we can generate a leader for TOE against the Egyptians. Then we can generate a leader for the UN against the Mongols. After this we won't really need a leader but we can have some fun with the vikings and use any leaders generated for SS parts or whatever.

Anyway, thats my tuppence.

 

[TedJackson]

Hi guys & Gals,

Sorry for the terseness of this reply but I've got to dash out for an hour or so. Rather than responding to each idea individually I've tried to wrap up the most important points below. Hopefully I'll get back in time to respond to any new stuff.

1. We're playing on a large map where OCN = 24 (unless MB modified it). As I understand it AI will fight until thay have at least that number of cities.

2. There should be no need for our units to get involved in any fighting, except repelling invaders. In other words we don't set foot on foreign soil, ever.

3. Egypt is past her prime. I'm sure you've all seen this before. Egypt, with her early GA looks to be a major power, then quietly slips down the ranking.

4. Gifting away our Babylon & Greek holdings is a good idea (thanks Hooray).

5. Another good idea: Giving away some of our workers - after Railroading is complete (good one mad-bax).

6. I'm only proposing war because I think it's the only way to stop the AI bickering amongst themselves. So although I like MB's idea of leader fishing (although not against Egypt because of the MPP with the Aztecs) it isn't at the heart of why i proposed the dogpile on Egypt in the first place.

Again, apologies for being do short.


Ted

 

[vbraun]

What we should do if we go at war is send 4 riflemen/infaltry on a galleon and land them on a mountain in enemy territory on roads and watch are guys pick them off like flys. Making it easier for our allys to take there cities. We could also put some Calvary with them so we could then fish for a GL.

I agree with Mad if we go at war then we should go at war with either the Vikings or Mongols. Could some one post a mini map of the game so far of territory and terrain. Thats one of the most important things for deciding to go at war.

If this were my own game I would pick each AI civ off one by one. But if we did that where a kinda of stuck and will win by like domination/conquest/histograph.

Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in.

 

[mad-bax]

One way of going to war safely with the Egyptians would be to sign an MPP with the Aztecs and possibly the vikings, then stealing a tech from Egypt (immediately). If it fails (and lets face it, we've had more than our fair share of luck with steals) Egypt will declare since they are furious with us. They would then be the aggressor and the Aztecs would come in on our side. The problem with this of course is a 20 turn war deal that could leave us with acute WW problems.

However, I think we should pursue a peaceful path for the time being. Gifting workers to the AI, gifting cities to the Greeks and siphoning off some of our cash to a couple of the other civs.

On reflection I believe that the Koreans are capable of fast research as they have quite a large territory. I'd give them 20 workers and 150gpt immediately.

I wouldn't feel safe running at less than 500gpt surplus for the moment. We need to build an enormous treasury for the modern age. Probably around 15000g.

It's an interesting problem.

 

[TedJackson]

Ok,

I slept on it and thought it wouldn't hurt to try the peaceful route first. We can always resort to war later

Pre-flight checks... OK

Objectives
Maximise economy
Foster WLTKD
Reduce number of AI civs - they are obviously still below OCN and will continue to make war on one another until they reach OCN. The only way that is going to happen is by removing one or more from the game.
More rails

Pre-turn
MM Medina to shave 1 turn of Universal Suffrage
Adana hurries Aqueduct for 44gp (avoid waste)
Pithom hurries Market for 320gp (fully corrupt)
Sippar hurries Market for 268gp (happiness)
Kish hurries Market for 272gp (happiness)
Hawk WM

Press button
Egypt wants to renew Wines deal - I turn it down
Scandinavia demands TM + 100gp - I refuse on principle
Persia wants to renew Saltpetre deal - not at the moment, thank you - I gift him WM
Edrine Hospital - Court
Uruk Bank - Police Stn
Konya Aqueduct - Court
Kish Market - Police Stn
Adana Aqueduct - Court
Pithom Market - Court
Sippar Market - Court
New Mecca Aqueduct - Court
Mongols start Universal Suffrage

1 - 1455AD
Workers work...
Aleppo hurries Bank for 48gp (avoid waste)
Bangalore hurries Court for 52gp (corrupt)
Bombay hurries Court for 28gp (corrupt)
Hama hurries Court for 64gp (waste)
We have 2 turns left on a dyes deal with Egypt - then thay are toast as they're not scientific & their power is waning
Hawk WM (just to stay in touch)
Gift Babylon & India 10gp each (rinse & repeat every turn)

IBT
Bombay Court - Market (happiness, rush soon)
Bangalore Court - Market (happiness, rush soon)
Iznik Worker - MArket (happiness, rush soon)
Antalya Factory - Hospital
Aleppo Bank - Police Stn
Lagash Worker - Market (happiness, rush soon)
Hama Court - Police Stn

2 - 1460AD
Workers work...
Mecca hurries Hospital for 120gp (waste)
Mansura hurries Hospital for 88gp (waste)
Hawk WM
Gift Babylon & India 10gp each

IBT
Mecca Hospital - Factory
Mansura Hospital - Police Stn

3 - 1465AD
Workers work...
Antalya hurries Hospital for 340gp (waste)
Greece, Aztec, Iroquois, Scandinavia Espionage
I decide to try a different strategy
Buy Espionage from Greece for 100gpt
Sell Espionage, Wines, Gems to Korea (Sci) for WM + TM
Buy WM & TM from Persia (Sci) for Coal, Gems + 100gpt
Buy WM + TM from Egypt for Wines + Incense
Buy WM + TM from Mongols for Furs + Espionage
Buy WM + TM from Aztecs for Coal
Right! We're commited to 20 turn deals with everyone except India, Scandinavia & Babylon

IBT
Renew Egyptian Dyes deal - we take WM & TM
Renew Greek Wines deal - we take WM & TM
Renew Silks from Iroquois for Iron + 100gpt
Medina Universal Suffrage - Hospital
Antalya Hospital - Intelligence Agency (5 turns)

4 - 1470AD
Workers work...
Punjab hurries Aqueduct for 64gp (waste)
Shihr hurries Market for 20gp
Buy WM & TM from Greece for Dyes + Coal

IBT
Renew Wines deal with Scandinavia - we take WM & TM
Renew Gems deal with Greece - we take WM + TM
Renew Wines deal with Persia - we take WM + TM
Shihr Market - Aqueduct
Dacca Market - Aqueduct
Aydab Court - Police Stn
Punjab Aqueduct - Bank

5 1475AD
Workers work...
Istanbul switches to Lib & hurries for 128gp (Aztec border)
Konya
Edrine switches to Lib & hurries for 156gp (Aztec border)
Merw hurries Bank for 80gp (waste)
Muscat hurries Hospital for 56gp (waste)
Khurasan hurries Hospital for 128gp (waste)
Najran hurries Hospital for 100gp (waste)
Damascus hurries Factory for 148gp (waste)

IBT
Aztecs & Scandinavia sign Peace Treaty
Renew Aztecs Wine deal - we take WM & TM
Greece & Persia sign Peace Treaty
Istanbul Lib - Court
Damascus Factory - Hospital
Edrine Lib - Court
Najran Hospital - Factory
Get Battle field Medicine message
Khurasan Hospital - Police Stn
Muscat Hospital - Police Stn
Konya Lib - Court
Merw Bank - Police Stn

6 - 1480AD
New Kufah founded - Court
Workers work...
Pune hurries Factory for 72gp (waste)

IBT
Persia & Greece sign MPP
Hyderabad Aqueduct - Court
Pune factory - BAnk
New Delhi Market - Court

7 - 1485AD
Workers work...
Medina hurries Hospital for 204gp (waste)
Basra hurries Factory for 72gp (waste)
Bayt Ras hurries Aqueduct for 16gp (waste)
Bangalore hurries Market for 360gp (happiness)
Nombay hurries Market for 328gp (happiness)

IBT
Aztecs & Mongols sign MPP
Persia & Babylon sign Peace Treaty
Medina Hospital - Factory
Bombay Market - Lib
Bangalore Market - Lib
Basra Factory - Granary
Akkad Aqueduct - Worker
Bukhara Cathedral - Hospital
Eridu Harbour - Court
Bayt Ras Aqueduct - Court

8 - 1490AD
Edrine switches to Cathedral (happiness)
Aden hurries Hospital for 76gp (waste)
Kufah hurries Factory for 116gp (waste)
Babylon hurries Court for 20gp (waste)
Izibia hurries Aqueduct for 32gp (waste)
Madras hurries Harbour for 52gp (waste)
Nimrud hurries Market for 28gp (waste)
Lagash hurries MArket for 360gp (happiness)
Iznik hurries Market for 376gp (happiness)

IBT
Renew Furs to Korea - we take WM & TM
Delhi Bank - Hospital
Babylon Court - Police Stn
Baghdad Factory - Hospital
Madras Harbour - Aqueduct
Iznik Market - Court
Kufah Factory - Police Stn
Fustat Factory - Granary
Aden Hospital - Police Stn
Jaipur Market - Court
Antalya Intelligence Agency - Battlefield Medicine
Lagash Market - Court
Sana'a Bank - Court
Izibia Aqueduct - Court
Nimrud Market - Court
Tabuk Court - Aqueduct
New Mecca Court - Bank

9 - 1495AD
Workers work...
Damascus hurries Hospital for 196gp (waste)
Ur hurries Bank for 68gp
Fez MM for Bank in 1
Basra hurries Granary for 140gp

IBT
Babylon and Greece sign MA vs Scandinavia
Ur Bank - Police Stn
Damascus Hospital - Police Stn
Basra Granary - Hospital
Adana Court - Granary
New Baghdad Harbour - Aqueduct

10 - 1500AD
Workers work...
Nineveh hurries Factory for 72gp (waste)
Mosul hurries Factory for 100gp (waste)
Yamama hurries Factory for 112gp (waste)
Mecca hurries Factory for 176gp (waste)
Greece has Electricity (140gpt)
Aztec has Electricity (140gpt)
Korea has Electricity (130gpt)
Persia has Electricity (140gpt)
Iroquois has Electricity (130gpt)
Egypt has Electricity (140gpt)
I leave the trading for the next leader

The Power Histograph

Notes
I've given away Luxuries and resources, made gpt deals and generally been an all-round nice guy to everyone
It took 7 turns to get from Espionage to Electricity. I don't know if this is a good sign or not. In both cases the tech appeared with 3 or more civs out of the blue.
I've traded my WM for WM + TM with every civ on every turn just to keep in touch with them.
We still need lots more workers. We should be concentrating on getting those population figures up and making sure they're working railed tiles. It's probably worth irrigating where it could make a difference to growth then re-mining as neccesary.

The save is
> here <


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

Nice show of restraint Ted

I think someone needs to sit and look at the two cores and maximise production at the population limit for each city. I'm not sure what the city tile density is but where there is a food surplus that gives us a taxman due to lack of tiles to work then we should plant forrests on irrigated grass, harvest and then replant.
Unfortunately this must be done by one person as it will be too complicated to keep track of tiles that have been lumberjacked. I find forrests the most economical way of controlling the population/production balance as you get 1 food and 2 shields. So the aim would be to have every tile worked, no specialists and no food surplus initially. We can then play with each city to get an uncorrupted shield output that minimises waste depending on what that city is building.

We must have around 150 workers including slaves now. I'm a bit surprised we need more. But so be it. We should make them for the AI anyhow, and it could take an age to get RP.

Should we risk a prebuild for TOE? Would it be safe to assume the AI will get it in 10 turns, or do you think they will all research to MT and ignore the Radio branch?

Hooray: You are UP.

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by mad-bax
I think someone needs to sit and look at the two cores and maximise production at the population limit for each city.

Thanks for volunteering MB

Originally posted by mad-bax
I'm not sure what the city tile density is but where there is a food surplus that gives us a taxman due to lack of tiles to work then we should plant forrests on irrigated grass, harvest and then replant.

Probably the easiest way is to assign a couple of cities (we're only bothered about the cores) to each player and make them responsible for bringing those cities up to max pop & prod (Pop first)

Originally posted by mad-bax
We must have around 150 workers including slaves now. I'm a bit surprised we need more. But so be it. We should make them for the AI anyhow, and it could take an age to get RP.

We have a huge territory to lick into shape. I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't come close to doubling that 150

Originally posted by mad-bax
Should we risk a prebuild for TOE? Would it be safe to assume the AI will get it in 10 turns, or do you think they will all research to MT and ignore the Radio branch?

I think the pre-build could be risky, but what have we got to lose? Just shields

Antalya (Ironworks, Palace) is over 80spt at the moment and that's not maxed yet so we could probably beat the AI on any build from a standing start.

Go Hooray!


Ted

 

[Hooray]

No way I can play right now. I'm pretty much a weekend-only player right now.

Is it possible I could slip out of the regular rotation and just take it when possible? I don't want to have to keep asking for skips if my turn usually falls on inconvenient days.

 

[mad-bax]

Hooray: so what do you want me to do? Do you want me to put you UP if a turn falls at the weekend or are you going to let me know when you can play?

I'll be as flexible as I can without impacting on the other players.

If what you are really saying is that you want to stop playing this SG then just say, no harm done

Just let me know how you want to proceed OK?

vbraun: you are UP. (PM sent as requested).

 

[Hooray]

No, I really like this SG. It makes me feel bad that my schedule conflicts with playing this game.

If someone's turn completes on a Thursday or Friday or Saturday then I would be glad to take it up then.

I don't want to drop out, but I guess I will if this is too inconvenient for everyone else.