Merchant of Venice - Annex CS

[jmcbryde]

Quick question about annexing a CS with MoV. While a CS was at war with America it captured New York so it is now part of the CS. If I annex the CS will I annex both cities (the CS and NY)? I'm sure Japan won't be happy if I do and may declare war so I'm not sure if I actually want to do it, just curious what would happen.

Thanks

 

[consentient]

Firstly, Venice don't Annex cities, they puppet them.

But yes, if you puppet a CS with multiple territories, you will get them all.

 

[BlackWizard]

Hmm...If CS captures capital and you annex it with MOV when playing with some other civ than Venice will you be able to raze former capital...That amazing but usually not useful

 

[consentient]

I've played about 20 games where I've filled out Patronage, and only once got a MoV. Very nice trade mission though!

 

[jmcbryde]

Yes, meant puppet not annex! Thanks! Now to figure out if I want to do it or not. I've already puppeted 2 CS and planning to go diplomatic once I get the UN. Just not sure it's worth the risk of war with Japan who has a slightly more powerful army.

 

[consentient]

Puppeting CS is generally a really bad idea. Much better to take the culture, food or happiness from them. The only benefit to puppeting is being able to run food cargoes back to Venice. But in all honesty, Diplomatic win is all about money, and Venice are never short of that.

 

[Sclb]

Hmm...If CS captures capital and you annex it with MOV when playing with some other civ than Venice will you be able to raze former capital...That amazing but usually not useful

You still can't raze the capital.

 

[joncnunn]

You still can't raze the capital.

GMOV permanently removes city state status of the city that's bought out as well as former capital status. (As does Austria's marrying city states)

It's considered like the player that used GMOV or Austrian UA actually built the city and so there's no raze button for that player, but anyone capturing that city in a war wouldn't see a liberate button but would instead see a raze one.

 

[Sclb]

GMOV permanently removes city state status of the city that's bought out as well as former capital status. (As does Austria's marrying city states)

It's considered like the player that used GMOV or Austrian UA actually built the city and so there's no raze button for that player, but anyone capturing that city in a war wouldn't see a liberate button but would instead see a raze one.

Thanks for clarifying, I wasn't specific enough but I meant that the person using the MoV to buy the CS that captured a capital wouldn't be able to raze the capital, although he can liberate if he chooses (assuming that he is allowed to liberate ie not the person conquering the last city of that civ), which is actually quite odd. I'm not sure what would happen if he would recapture it after the liberation, would he be allowed to raze? Or does the game still treats it as a self built city?

 

[beetle]

GMOV permanently removes city state status of the city that's bought out as well as former capital status. (As does Austria's marrying city states). It's considered like the player that used GMOV or Austrian UA actually built the city and so there's no raze button for that player, but anyone capturing that city in a war wouldn't see a liberate button but would instead see a raze one.

So the scenario is (1) that a CS captures a capital. Quite rare, but it happens.

Then either (2a) Venice puppets, (2b) Austria marries, or (2c) another civ uses a GMOV gifted from patronage to puppet (with the possibility to annex) the CS.

Note that none of (2a), (2b), or (2c) will have the option to raze.

Then (3) a third civ, presumably the player, conquerors the former capital.

Jon, are you saying that at step (3) the former capital is treated just like any other “native” city belonging to Venice/Austria/whomever -- so upon conquering, no option to liberate. Just puppet/annex/raze -- just like any other mundane city?

Do I have that all correct? Is step (3) really necessary for the (2c) scenario?

Wow! It actually all makes sense to me. So anyone game to try and set that up?

 

[Fooie]

Playing as Venice, I normally favored buying Mercantile CS because they are the least useful for Venice imo, because you will normally be extremely happy because you can wonder spam on lower difficulties; normally tall civs are very happen anyway. I only bought 3 CS. One was on another continent because I was at war with another civilization. I favored coastal CS, as cargo ships provide twice the yield. Try not to buy many CS, it generally makes diplomatic victory harder, but Enrico can buy allies with ease.

 

[DrCron]

Yes, meant puppet not annex! Thanks! Now to figure out if I want to do it or not. I've already puppeted 2 CS and planning to go diplomatic once I get the UN. Just not sure it's worth the risk of war with Japan who has a slightly more powerful army.

When playing Venice you should never be at risk of a war, because every other CIV should be at war with someone else (so they never declare on you). As a general rule you should have no army (as in, literally your only land unit should be your first warrior, unless barbarians come) and still be able to say "you will pay for this" every time another CIV bullies a CS after, let's say, turn 150. To achieve this you should bribe so that every other CIV is ALWAYS at war, especially the dangerous ones.

You can do the OCC this way, it's very easy, as long as you keep bribing them to start wars. Example here (AI at war with each other throughout pretty much the whole game except the first few turns):


Link to video.

 

[joncnunn]

So the scenario is (1) that a CS captures a capital. Quite rare, but it happens.

Then either (2a) Venice puppets, (2b) Austria marries, or (2c) another civ uses a GMOV gifted from patronage to puppet (with the possibility to annex) the CS.

Note that none of (2a), (2b), or (2c) will have the option to raze.

Then (3) a third civ, presumably the player, conquerors the former capital.

Jon, are you saying that at step (3) the former capital is treated just like any other “native” city belonging to Venice/Austria/whomever -- so upon conquering, no option to liberate. Just puppet/annex/raze -- just like any other mundane city?

Do I have that all correct? Is step (3) really necessary for the (2c) scenario?

Wow! It actually all makes sense to me. So anyone game to try and set that up?

The city state being bought out (GMOV) / married (Venice) is definitely native. It's not quite clear what the status of other cities that the city state being bought out had conquered.
If the human is playing Venice/Austria, they can check native status of a city state's conquest post GMOV/marriage by seeing if a Courthouse is an option to build (Austria) / buy (Venice) in the conquered city. This could actually be checked if the conquered city isn't a capital if you can buy out (GMOV) / marry (Venice) before they finish razing it.