Meth01: Culture, with no Wonders

[ChrTh]

My bad, I thought it was +100 -- but you're right it is +200. Hrm, the superspecialist may actually be the best idea ... it'd be 'safer' than trying to send a merchant across the world, and it would help us get the GAs we need sooner.

 

[Conroe]

I made a mistake on my earlier post. I had listed that Kufah was a 100% chance for a Great Artist. It is actually an 83% chance for a Great Artist. The post has been corrected.

I'll probably go ahead and merge the GM since CT thinks it may not be a bad idea. I'll play the turns tonight, but I'm not sure if I will get it posted before I go to bed or not.

 

[Conroe]

Well, ChrTh has done an excellent job analyzing our situation. Culturally speaking, everything is in place. As previously noted, I am going to merge our Great Merchant as a super specialist in Baghdad.

At this point, the game is all about diplomacy. Mainly staying out of any wars. We are pretty much in a situation we must must give in to all demands. Since we are the tech laggard, there probably won't be any tech demands. We do have almost 600 gold in the bank, so I am going to start spending it before some civ comes asking for it. War declarations, of course, will be declined. Demands to stop trading will have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. This will be difficult since both Germany and Greece are at war at the moment.

The diplomatic situation currently looks like this:
Alexander (Pleased) +5 -- third largest army after taking some losses
Bismark (Pleased) +3 -- fifth largest army
Qin (Pleased) +5 -- by far the largest army
Tokugawa (Annoyed) -1 -- second largest army
Washington (Cautious) +2 -- fourth largest army

130 Turns Left!

Turn 0 - 1880AD: I bump the research slider up to 20%, leaving the culture slider at 80%. We are now spending gold at -67gpt. Steel is due in 15 turns.

Kufah has only 1 hammer available for its wealth build. Since you need 2 hammers to produce 1 coin, I remove wealth from the queue. The city resumes work on the Monastery that was left in the queue.

IBT: The war horns sound as Qin declares war on Alexander.

Turn 1 - 1882AD: Mecca completes a Grenadier and starts training another one. Basra completes its Courthouse and resumes work on its previously queued Library.

Turn 2 - 1884AD: Najran completes its University and starts Grenadier training.

Meanwhile, our Great Merchant arrives in Baghdad and joins the city population. The city will grow next turn.

Turn 3 - 1886AD: Mecca completes a Grenadier and starts training another one.

IBT: Bismarks asks that we join in the war against Greece. After declining, he is still pleased with us. Meanwhile, Tokugawa has declared war on Alexander.

Turn 4 - 1888AD:

IBT: Alex wants to trade wine for fish. I decline.

Turn 5 - 1890AD: Mecca completes a Grenadier and starts training another one. Saxon completes its Grocer and starts training a Grenadier. Basra completes its Library and also starts Grenadier training. We've now got 4 cities producing troops.

Turn 6 - 1892AD:

Turn 7 - 1894AD: Mecca completes a Grenadier and starts training another one.

Turn 8 - 1896AD: Najran completes a Grenadier and starts training another one.

Turn 9 - 1898AD: Mecca completes a Grenadier and starts training another one.

At this point, I've spent all of our money. With only 5 turns left to get the Steel research completed, I am forced to turn the research slider back off. I then cut a deal with Tokugawa to sell him our spare gold for 14gpt.

Turn 10 - 1900AD: Kufah completes the Jewish Monastery. Since a windmill was recently erected, the wealth production will now generate 1 coin. Saxon completes a Grenadier and starts training another one.

120 Turns Left!

Our culture picture after 10 turns:

And our troop counts:

We're still in last place on troops. We've got about 1/3rd the army that Qin currently has. And, our army is a little more than half the size of the rival average army. Unfortunately, we can only build about 20 more troops before we run out of money to support them. We may want to save those for Cannon. We are going to need a lot of Cannons, especially on coastal cities, if we end up fighting a war.

 

[Methos]

Several suggestions:

Mecca: The floodplains tile with the town on it S-SE of Mecca needs to be given to Damascus. Also remove the floodplains town tile SE-E of Mecca. By giving both these tiles to Damascus it’s culture goes from 240 cpt to 298 cpt. This will cause Mecca to be short one food, though we could always chop the N-NE forest and irrigate it.

If all of the non-culture cities switch to Wealth we can run culture at 90% and still make a profit. If we did this plus the tile switching as mentioned above we get this:

Baghdad: 260 cpt
Damascus: 296 cpt
Medina: 284 cpt

If all the switches are done immediately (not suggesting this, just making an example) our cities would hit 50k in:

Baghdad: 125 turns
Damascus: 103 turns
Medina: 121 turns

Note that is without any help from great artists. Also note that there are only 120 turns left in the game.

Another thing we could do is research to Biology and use the increased food to hire artists. I’m not sure on the math so don’t know if spending 13 turns researching would help us enough. Plus you’d have to let the cities grow to get the artist specialists.

Unless someone has a better idea I’m thinking we need to go all-out in culture at 90%. I’m almost wondering if it would be wise to go ahead and switch all non-culture cities to wealth to support 90% culture. Than just hope Kufah, or someone else, pops a few great artists.

I’ve already shutdown the game so can’t look, but what are our civics? We may want to switch to pacifism, if we aren’t already, to help get some great artists. Also, how do we look at GPP production? I knew I should have waited before shutting down CivIV!

Roster:
Methos
Soul Warrior- Ghosting
Conroe- Just Played
MeteorPunch- Up
ChrTh- On Deck

@Meteorpunch: Please pay close attention as we just barely have a chance of winning. Take a break from wow’ing please. I mean no offense, I just caught your statements in your winter game.

 

[ChrTh]

We are running Pacifism.
EDIT: Er, unless someone has changed it.

 

[Conroe]

Another thing we could do is research to Biology and use the increased food to hire artists. I'm not sure on the math so don't know if spending 13 turns researching would help us enough. Plus you'd have to let the cities grow to get the artist specialists.

Researching Biology requires that we first research Scientific Method. Together that would require 47 turns at 20% research. Personally, I would rather see us stick to the Steel research to get the Cannons. If some AI decides to invade us, we are going to need a seige weapon.

May I suggest an alternative that's a bit of a gamble? Alex is fighting a 3 front war. He is going to lose. As his power rating drops, we will eventually be stronger than he is. At that point, we can start demanding techs from him. Heck, since he is still pleased with us, he might be willing to part with Scientific Method, now.

Unless someone has a better idea I'm thinking we need to go all-out in culture at 90%. I'm almost wondering if it would be wise to go ahead and switch all non-culture cities to wealth to support 90% culture. Than just hope Kufah, or someone else, pops a few great artists.

Uh, the problem with this is that some fool -- I spent all of our cash. We can only run at 90% for short bursts. Unless, of course, we do as you say and switch all non-culture cities to building wealth. I would be in favor of doing this until we get access to Cannons. Then I strongly feel that we should roll out as many cannons as quickly as we can.

I've already shutdown the game so can't look, but what are our civics? We may want to switch to pacifism, if we aren't already, to help get some great artists.

We are running Pacifism.
EDIT: Er, unless someone has changed it.

No, I did not change our civics.
Heriditary Rule
Free Speech
Caste System
Free Market
Pacifism

We may not need Heriditary Rule now that we are using the culture slider. We would need to verify it first, but switching back to Despotism would save 5gpt.

 

[Conroe]

Also, how do we look at GPP production? I knew I should have waited before shutting down CivIV!

Turn 9 - 1400 GPP - Damascus - 100% GA
Turn 13 - 1600 GPP - Kufah - 83% GA
Turn 35 - 1800 GPP - Mecca - 16% GA
Turn 44 - 2000 GPP - Baghdad - 100% GA
Turn 52 - 2200 GPP - Kufah - 83% GA
Turn 76 - 2400 GPP - Damascus - 100% GA
Turn 99 - 2600 GPP - Kufah - 83% GA

No city will reach 2800 GPP before we run out of time. Also, I'm not sure about the points required after 2000 GPP. I'm assuming that it is still a 200 point increment, but it is unchartered territory for me.

We'll get 3 Great Artists for sure. IIRC from CT's analysis, we need 4 Great Artists to pull this off. We're probably looking at a Great Prophet out of Mecca. Surely with three chances, Kufah will give us at least 1 Great Artist! If not, they will be Great Merchants.

 

[ChrTh]

4 GAs will greatly assist us, but I believe we can win with only a couple after looking at Methos' numbers:

Right now Damascus is fine (103 turns)
1 GA saves Baghdad about 15 turns, so it'll hit 50,000 in 110 turns.
1 GA saves Medina about 14 turns, so it'll hit 50,000 in 107 turns.

If we can get 5 GAs (1 additional for each city),
Damascus in 90, Baghdad in 95, and Medina in 93. So if Kufah gets us 2 GAs, or 1 and Mecca gets us one, we'll have 50,000 in all 3 cities in 95; or 99 if we wait for Kufah to get us another one.

 

[Methos]

Recall that my numbers are based off of switching all non-culture cities to wealth immediately and going 90% culture.

Do we really need Steel? Are cannons worth it that much? At this point I'm not so sure. If we have enough friends we should be fine. In my SP culture games I sell every extra resource for gpt and all happiness resources. With the culture slider so high and the theatres the happiness resources are not needed. This alone boosted my relations with everyone.

Do we feel that war is a good possibility? How are our relations with our neighbors? Edit: Conroe listed our relations in his turnset.

Conroe has a good point of demanding techs from Alex. This may be something we should definitely look into.

Looks like I need to start the game back up.

 

[Methos]

Roster:
Methos
Soul Warrior- Ghosting
Conroe- Just Played
MeteorPunch- Skipped
ChrTh- Up

I guess we'll have to just skip MP. We haven't heard from him since before the weekend. His settings are set to invisible so I can't see when the last time he was online.

@ChrTh: Take her, she's your's.

 

[ChrTh]

I'll try to play tonight, but 24 is on, so it might be iffy ...

 

[ChrTh]

Turn 0 -- 1900 AD

The turn of the century, and Arabia is the place to be for fine art and culture.

I decide to ask Alex if he can spare us Steel ... no dice. He's only 'pleased', though, so I'm not surprised.

Going to 90% culture only has a -6gpt. I kill some fog-busting troops, and convert a couple cities to Wealth for now so we can build up. We're at +31 gpt.

I'm not able to duplicate the maneuvers necessary to get Damascus to 296. I do get it to 284 ... oh wait, there we go: 296. I also think I can increase it a little bit by converting one of the farmed flood plains to a cottage.

Mecca does start to starve, however I was able to reduce the damage to 1fpt, so it'll be 29 turns before Mecca runs out of food. However, it's GPP production goes up, so it'll get it's GP sooner (although it won't effect anything as it'll still happen after Kufah).

Ok, I'm able to get us to 100% culture only losing 1gpt by converting most of the cities to wealth. And then by trading Fish to Alex for 5gpt, we're in the green. phew!

That gives us the following cpt:
Medina 296
Damascus 312
Baghdad 276



And now, we pray.


Turn 1 -- 1902 AD


Turn 2 -- 1904 AD

Alex wants us to attack Germany, I, uh, decline.

Tokugawa adopts Vassalage and Theocracy. Hmm...

Turn 3 -- 1906 AD

We now have 10 million souls!

Turn 4 -- 1908 AD

China wants us to declare war on the Greeks. I decline.

With the farm converted to cottage, Damascus is at 316cpt. That'll increase as the cottage grows.

Turn 5 -- 1910 AD



Turn 6 -- 1912 AD



Turn 7 -- 1914 AD

(sorry, just bored with the smiley )

Turn 8 -- 1916 AD

Japan wants us to attack the Greeks. Sheesh, what's with these people?

Argos has been captured by the Chinese Empire!

Turn 9 -- 1918 AD

Japan wants us to adopt Mercantilism.

Alexander has made peace with Tokugawa.

Our Great Artist appears in Damascus. I send him to Baghdad, but I'll sleep him there.

Turn 10 -- 1920 AD



Ok, speaking of sleep, I've put most of the workers to sleep because I couldn't find anything to do with them. If you can find something--great!



Here's the situation:

110 Turns Left.

Medina needs 31308. Earning 284cpt*. Makes it in 110.24 turns
Baghdad needs 29649. Earning 276 cpt. Makes it in 108 turns.
Damascus needs 27202 (has passed Mecca for most culture). Earning 324 cpt (will go up as cottage turns into hamlet). Makes it in 84 turns.

GA is worth about 14 turns to both Medina and Baghdad, so one more GA gets us victory in 96 turns. A 3rd actually doesn't make it quicker. A 4th (Medina and Baghdad 2 each) gets us victory in 82-84 turns.

Here's the save:
View attachment 114297

*I had it higher before, not sure what happened (might've been accidentally starving it when I got that number).

 

[Methos]

Roster:
Methos- Up
Soul Warrior- Ghosting
Conroe
MeteorPunch- Skipped
ChrTh- Just Played

Got it. Will play tomorrow night.

 

[Conroe]

I decide to ask Alex if he can spare us Steel ... no dice. He's only 'pleased', though, so I'm not surprised.

When they are pleased with you, I don't think you get a penalty for asking. At least that is my recollection. Where does Alex stand in the power ratings, now? I was sorry to see Japan make peace with him. Interesting that Japan made peace one turn after asking us to declare.

And then by trading Fish to Alex for 5gpt, we're in the green.

This trade has me a little bit concerned. With Alex at war with 3 (now 2) opponents, there is a risk that we could incur that "traded with my worst enemy" penalty.

Do we really need Steel? Are cannons worth it that much? At this point I'm not so sure. If we have enough friends we should be fine.

You are exactly right. Cannons are only needed if someone declares on us. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I'm shocked everytime we go 10 turns without a declaration of war. Have we just been lucky that they've been too busy fighting each other? Or maybe they just don't need the lebensraum (sp?) and feel there is no need to invade.

 

[ChrTh]

Alex is last (well, except for Vicky). One of his cities fell to the Chinese during my turn.

I kept a close eye on the diplomacy, and no one is upset that we're currently trading with Alex as far as I can tell. I think 3 of the Civs are Pleased with us, 1 is Cautious, and 1 is Annoyed (Tokugawa, of course )

 

[Methos]

...but I'm shocked everytime we go 10 turns without a declaration of war. Have we just been lucky that they've been too busy fighting each other? Or maybe they just don't need the lebensraum (sp?) and feel there is no need to invade.

I'm curious if our culture affects relations? In the majority of my SP culture games no one declares on me from about halfway through until the end. I'll have to recheck all the bonuses in relations to see if one could have some influence from our culture.

In how many turns must we go before we can cancel a deal? I'm thinking it's ten. If it looks like Alex is going downhill fast, or our trades are causing problems, I'll end that deal.

Haven't had a chance to look at the save yet, as I'll play when I wake up this afternoon. Please post any more advice/suggestions you have. We're getting to that point where everything matters.

 

[MeteorPunch]

1900
1902 Tokugawa wants our help vs. Alexander, but I turn him down.
1904
1906
1908
1910 Alexander makes peace with Bismarck, still at war with Japan and China.
1912
1914
1916
1918 Great Artist born in Damascus! ...moved and fortified in Mecca.
1920 Qin wants us to cancel our deals with Alexander...we have a health for health deal that I cancel.

- our commerce has slowed down during my turns because of the nonstop builds of Grenadiers. I think our best commerce cities (Mecca) should immediately switch to Wealth and still keep some cities on Grendiers.
- this is definitely gonna be close...

 

[Methos]

@MeteorPunch: Uh, you missed the post about skipping you. Hadn't heard from you so ChrTh went ahead and played. Sorry.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Oops, I missed that. But really its only been 2 days since Conroe played...I'm finishing this one out, for the record.

 

[Methos]

As I mentioned in CTIV-2 I'll be busy tonight. I also noticed that Conroe is after me in both games! Oh well, I hope you all don't mind waiting until tomorrow.

@MP: Can you take it tonight? I can play tomorrow but there's no way possible I can do it today. We can call it a swap from the earlier skip.