[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

[Mikehendi]

OK then, a diplo win is ok, but I don't want to specifically aim for it. I personally also like the dom/conq idea.

I meant to say we have the power to research 1 tech only at 100% before we run out of gold, so it better be a good tech for us, or a good tech for trading.

Things like a forge, factory and IW do apply to building wealth, you just can't abuse overflow from builds you have a bonus resource for. (since 3.13? 3.17?) If I'm not mistaken.

 

[happyturtle]

Do we have a great food city? Globe Theatre / Draft city for a Dom/Conq win seems like our best bet. I have the most experience at culture, but no idea how difficult it is at deity level.

 

[Stochastic]

OK then, a diplo win is ok, but I don't want to specifically aim for it. I personally also like the dom/conq idea.

I think we do need to choose and aim for the VC. So diplo would mean beelining (to a certain extent) MM, conquest would mean choosing a unit window (conquistadors or cavalry or rifles or cannons) for the attack and then beelining that. I don't think we can get away with not specifically aiming for something.

@ Happyturtle, I think our best draft option is the barb city we took, it isn't the best, but our other cities either don't have enough food surplus or are currently planned to have other National wonders (Oxford, NE, IW) that are best in large cities.

 

[Mikehendi]

I agree on the former barb city as GT draft city.

Whatever vic we go for, we probably need to war anyway. Hatty seems like a good target. How about this for a plan:

1. Beeline cannons or rifles or cavalry --> an AI, probably Hatty
2. Beeline computers --> Internet --> turn off tech for a while, collect gold and when the time is right, blaze through the space techs or go for mech.inf/modern armours?

Well, 2 lines might be a bit... small to call it a plan But hey, it's something!

 

[Asaf]

So I understand we have a majority for dom/con.
Is there a point in going for AP to prevent someone else from building it?

I agree on hatty being the 1st victim, but I don't think we should wait for rifles/cannons/cavalry to do that. She's about as advanced as us tech-wise, and at least in the short run we can probably out-tech her and get better units.
I think in the long run she will out-tech us, since religions might change (and trade relations with them), and she does have twice as many cities as us.
So I think we should strike sooner rather than later, but of course we need to scout her area and build up an army first.

I think discussing computers and the internet at this point is a bit of a stretch. I don't think that even in easier games we can base any strategy on these.

I have nothing to add on city specialization. Your suggestions sound good and I think we have a consensus on that.

BTW, Where is Sury going with this stack?

And about building wealth and modifiers - Mikehendi is right, of course (I checked...). I also play a Warlords SG now so it's a bit confusing.

 

[shyuhe]

Lurker comment:

Space is almost always easier than domination/conquest on deity....

Don't forget the per era bonus that the AI gets!

 

[Asaf]

Don't forget the per era bonus that the AI gets!

I can't forget what I don't know...

I found this node in the XML: iAiPerEraModifier, but I have no idea what it does...

 

[Mikehendi]

O, yes, now I remember. It means that the incredible deity bonusses deity AI's are getting will get incredibly more incredible each time they advance an era, making them even deitier deity's!

Was it something like in the modern era, their bonusses have increased about 50% extra compared to the ancient era?

 

[obsolete]

There are insane worker cheats as well...

 

[shyuhe]

O, yes, now I remember. It means that the incredible deity bonusses deity AI's are getting will get incredibly more incredible each time they advance an era, making them even deitier deity's!

Was it something like in the modern era, their bonusses have increased about 50% extra compared to the ancient era?

They get a 5% cumulative bonus to everything per era. By the end of the game, it nears 25-30%.

 

[Stochastic]

I guess I learn something new on every page of this SG!
Though I'm not sure how this makes the space race easier, as I would have thought that it will be guarenteed to extend to the latest era and so provide the largest bonuses. I suppose we can always reevaluate the situation around the Renaissance.

Back to short term now, it looks like we want to get out two more settlers and a bunch of workers (maybe 4?) I'm not sure how best to do that, maybe build/whip (units in recovery) in Machu while building units in Cuzco to the happy cap and then more workers in Cuzco when it is capped?

 

[Asaf]

So, short-mid term suggestions:

I'm for teching theology. It's on the route for liberalism and can be used for trading.
We should continue teching towards liberalism and trade for military techs when we can without hurting our lead. If pacal, for some reason, is closer to liberalism, we can quit the race and trade for what we have.

(Question: Do we try building the AP after teching theology? If so, we should probably do some pre-chopping)

We should start exploring Hatty's territory. Sending a work boat is fine but will only get us that far. The easiest way is to trade for world map after paper. The alternative is OB which I'm not sure we want.

After the settlers and workers (or during), should we start training axes (and cats, when we can) or do we wait to build maces (or do we wait even more)?

 

[Soirana]

So, short-mid term suggestions:

I'm for teching theology. It's on the route for liberalism and can be used for trading.

normal way goes through CoL and CS you know. Well, some would say through music and backtrade, but you really need very good reason to go towards paper through theo.

 

[Asaf]

normal way goes through CoL and CS you know. Well, some would say through music and backtrade, but you really need very good reason to go towards paper through theo.

Besides the fact that it's the fastest route to liberalism for us (check our current techs)? And that we can use it for trading? And that it allows us to build the AP (which I'm still not convinced we've decided not to)?

Maybe you're right, but I think that's a valid path as well.

 

[happyturtle]

Building the AP would be nice if we can afford the hammers.

 

[Mikehendi]

Missing COL ain't so bad, since our empire is small, and slavery > caste system, at least for a while.

But missing out on Bureaucracy, that's almost unthinkable, especially now! Even delaying it for 10-20 turns would be very painful if we don't get something extremely useful in return.

And, building the AP means also needing to build non-spi temples and monasteries in most cities. That's a very big investment, and then I'm not even considering the chance we will fail the wonder, and have detoured for nothing.

Really, with this empire we have here, Bureau's just too good to pass up or delay.


PS
Thanks for the info on the AI bonuses, Shyuhe!
And Obsolete, what are those deity worker cheats you're talking about? Stuff like 1-turn roads and 3 turn farms and such?

 

[Stochastic]

After the settlers and workers (or during), should we start training axes (and cats, when we can) or do we wait to build maces (or do we wait even more)?

We should certainly keep building units while producting settlers and workers, at least until the current set of WHEOOHRN go off, I think we were still Cautious with the Khemer when they started plotting... I don't want to have to rely on tricking the AI with clever dancing.

Mikehendi's points are basically what I was going to say about Theo and the AP, while Paper through Theo is certainly faster, we've set ourselves up for Buro. Also our maintenance will only grow, and it is Deity maintenance so we will probably want courthouses sooner than we expect.

I would be very surprised if Pascal isn't teching Theo right now, I don't know which AIs like the religious techs more, but I think he is one of them. Since we want to trade with him, Theo would be very unhelpful.

That said, I think we are close to having enough EPS to see his research (unfortunately I don't have time to check in game) and we need to bank gold too, so we could just wait a bit to see what he's going for.

Personally I still prefer Drama or Compass. If it looks like we are going to get our next GS before we can tech Compass and Drama (I think that is the situation) we should go for Drama next to bulb Philo.

 

[Asaf]

You had me at Bureau...
So I'm convinced we need civil service (which will also give us maces), but what's the best way to get it?

The next GS is currently in 18 turns, but assuming we keep on building the NE (6 turns), we'll have the next GS in 12 (or 11, if we drop the tin and add a scientist).

We can have compass in 8-9 turns @ 80% research (very close to gold limit, so we might need the 9 turns).
Are you sure philo will be bulb-ed and not anything else if we research only drama? (compass, calendar...)
We can see pacal's research in 2 turns.

Anyway, here's my build plan:
Tiwa - Finish NE then workers (or a settler and then workers).
Cuzco - Continue the parthenon until it's finished or (more likely) we get a lot of gold. If we only want the gold we can put it on hold in a couple of turns, although I think thanks to marble and ind trait we get a pretty good conversion rate. Once we stop with partenon - workers.
Macchu pichu - switch to a settler and whip in 1 turn (or 4, depending how much population we want to lose). Then build a few axes while the city grows and go back to workers.
Olly - finish barracks and let it grow while building axes.

Not sure what to do with chehalis. Probably finish the worker (maybe whip it towards the end for 1 pop).

Do we want to settler the copper/wheat blue dot (next to the barb city)? Or do we want to let the barbs settle another city there as someone said for the XP for heroic epic? I think this should be our next city, but there are of course other options.

In any case we should send a few axes there to raze the city. Or we can keep it (even though it's not the ultimate location, it'll still have wheat+copper). It'll save us a settler.

 

[obsolete]

And Obsolete, what are those deity worker cheats you're talking about? Stuff like 1-turn roads and 3 turn farms and such?

Pretty much. They even get single-turn forest chops. Now you see another reason out of many why ghandi becomes so dangerous.

 

[Stochastic]

I Cuzco building the parth is an interesting choice, I think it might actually work out for the fail gold, but I do think we should prioritize settlers/workers so maybe if we work on the Parth at Max growth until we get to the happy cap and then go for a settler (with chop assist on the plains hill if a worker is available).

Tiwa should probably go for Workers because settler will take forever.

We should use the the food surplus at Machu by doing some combo of whipping settlers/workers for 2 pop and recovering with units. Personally I'd prefer to whip settlers because I'm not sure if whipping workers is as efficient in normal (epic is my regular speed) but we really need the workers.

I think the barb city gets whipped asap and then maybe units as it grows?

The GPP bulb pattern can be found here so we will have to get Math first, but my thought is that we use Drama to trade for that.

For the next settlement, I think would prefer the marble/fish spot and hope for another few barb units to spawn, getting the HE out will be so helpful for building up things like cannons that can't be drafted (though they can be whipped, I'd prefer to avoid that if possible). In the short term it would allow us to use less cities for unit production and more cities for building infrastructure/workers and gold. I also like the Marble/fish because it won't need any immediate worker turns, the marble is already set up and I would envision it building a monument->WB->Granary all on the marble until the fish is up (maybe stealing corn when available).