[MH2] - Monarchs take on Deity

[Asaf]

We already have math. Drama it is. Except I don't see anything we could trade it for. Maybe Med+PH or calendar or currency (if it's up in the market by then). Of course we could finish currency before going for drama. After drama - compass.

Do we want to try for liberalism? if so, we probably shouldn't trade philo soon.

So... raze the barb city. Settle the marble/fish. Finish the NE. Continue with Parthenon for now and then another settler. Train another settler, workers and use units to pad.

I think it's my turn, so I intend to play tomorrow evening my time (in about 27-28 hours). So if you have any other comments please post them.
I will not play if there will be important issues which we cannot agree about, but for now it seems there aren't any.

 

[Mikehendi]

Is keeping the barb city so bad? It still has the resources, and saves us hammers for the settler, and these are times we could use every hammer very much. It might even come with a free granary or so.

 

[Stochastic]

We already have math. Drama it is. Except I don't see anything we could trade it for. Maybe Med+PH or calendar or currency (if it's up in the market by then). Of course we could finish currency before going for drama. After drama - compass.

Do we want to try for liberalism? if so, we probably shouldn't trade philo soon.

So... raze the barb city. Settle the marble/fish. Finish the NE. Continue with Parthenon for now and then another settler. Train another settler, workers and use units to pad.

I think it's my turn, so I intend to play tomorrow evening my time (in about 27-28 hours). So if you have any other comments please post them.
I will not play if there will be important issues which we cannot agree about, but for now it seems there aren't any.

Those techs (barring med and PH) are essentially what I was hoping we could trade Drama out for, they will all need some partial research, but hopefully not much. Also, if we can use Philo to get techs like Feudalism Civil Service and Machinery (hopefully we get MC and CoL from compass), than I don't really mind trading it away. The Deities will get it very quickly anyways, so we will just have to try and bulb our way along if we want to try for lib.

Also, I just realised that we need Med to get Philo, so maybe we should grab that first (unless we have a chance of begging it off of someone?) as we could use the monasteries in Tiwa and Cuzco.

Is keeping the barb city so bad? It still has the resources, and saves us hammers for the settler, and these are times we could use every hammer very much. It might even come with a free granary or so.

Well I don't think it is in the optimal location but maybe you are right.

Actually the best thing to do to guarantee we get the lvl 4 unit for the HE would be to bring the 5xp axe with combat I (use it's promo on CRI), the 4xp axe (as stack defense) and the axe that used to be a quecha (use it's promo on medic). Then we can use the 5xp axe to keep attacking over and over again, waiting to heal to max between attacks, until it gets to lvl 4. At that rate we probably won't take the city in the next set, so we only need get one settler, not two, which is nice because then we can get more workers.

 

[Asaf]

I played and stopped after only 4 turns. Read on the figure out why...

250 BC (IHT) -
Pushed a settler in macchu pichu before the axe.
Not moving the axes yet - they still need to finish healing.
As Stochastic suggested, the former quecha was promoted to Medic I.

Since we need Med for the Philo, and no one will just give it to us, I trade lit to Sury for Med+PH, while he still doesn't have lit.

Spoiler :

We'll use drama for something else. It will also open up CoL for us.
Sury and Pacal have CoL.

Also switched research to 90%, Drama is still in 5 turns, only it's affordable now.

IBT -
The AP was built - hinduism. The unknown civ has built it since Shaka doesn't have theology.
The Rajavihara games have started (didn't we turn events off?)

225 BC (106) -
A spy was stumbled upon next to macchu pichu.
Sury's stack is progressing NE, and 2 more of his units have entered our borders (where is he going?)
Sent 3 axes from Macchu Pichu north starting the journey to the barb city.

90% research is not affordable now, so I reduce research to 80%. Luckily, it still gives us 4 turns for drama.

200 BC (107) -
Tiwa can hurry NE for 2 pop, but since we want to build workers there (it doesn't have barracks), and I don't think the GS will be much earlier with that (maybe 1-2 turns), so I don't whip.

Whipped the barracks in Olly (will go into axe).

175 BC (108) -
Apparently the Parthenon was BIFAL last turn. I missed it in the messages with all the BUG log spamming. Sorry.
Anyway, we got 167 for it.

Hatshepsut will sign OB now. Now this is a dillema, since we need to explore her territory, but she's Sury's worst enemy. For now, I do nothing, but we should consider it.

Olly: barracks -> axe (will be done next turn).
Cuzco: Parth (cancelled) -> axe (so it can grow next turn). After it reaches its happy cap (or a bit before that) I'll switch to worker.

I connect 2 health resources (cow+wheat) because cuzco is already at max health and can still grow. Sent the southern worker which connected the horses (which were already connected through Bismarck, but we couldn't count on it in the long run) to chop the forest south of Macchu pichu.
I hope I'm using the workers wisely... I'm never sure about these actions.

Whipped the worker in chehalis (would have taken 6 more turns...)

150 BC (109) -

Oh oh...

Spoiler :

Now we now what all these units are for... But we were friends! (or at least pleased)

And then hatty comes along:

Spoiler :

I wish there was a way to stop here and consult (this one always annoys me). While checking the relations screen and going back, I accidently rejected her kind offer by pressing a key (Esc?).
Since she's sury's worst enemy, maybe it should have been a different response. Oh well. If it's very important I checked and I have an auto-save from the previous turn, if we want to go back and just change this decision.

Oh, and:
Olly: axe -> axe
Chehalis: worker -> barracks

The current stacks:

Spoiler :

We have 2 more axes in Macchu Pichu (I wish I hadn't sent those axes to the north...)

Well, for obvious reasons I'll stop here.

Note that Sury also has a scout in the far north.
Well, there are many things to do here, but I guess we'll discuss them later (I really don't have enough time right now...).

Save:

 

[Stochastic]

I can't check the save right now, but that isn't all that much of a surprise as he went into WHEOOHRN way back before we even converted to Buddhism (so he was still cautious).

I think that we will actually be ok as long as he doesn't bring in any catapults, we are on a hill, and could whip out a wall (dump overflow into NE to help that along). Our defense should be more than adequate to deal with the first stack, after which we can hopefully beg for peace.

About the Hatty deal, it was pressing esc, I have done that many times in single player and it frustrates me no end. I'm unsure as to whether that was the right call as well, in Emperor I would be more worried about breaking with Shaka than Hatty, but she is next to us and is probably more prone to have obscene numbers of units. I don't think it is worth reloading though.

Finally a note on research, I think it is best if we do though Binary (ie either 0% or 100%). It saves on rounding errors (not all that big a deal but every bit helps) and helps keep our gold around for when we have a better multiplier for the research.

 

[Asaf]

Yeah, I noticed the no siege too.

The reason it surprised me is that he sent the entire stack through our territory so I thought he was just passing through. I still don't know what was the point exactly (he already had a scout on our land).

I think binary research is good for some cases, but with our beaker/gold ratio (don't remember exactly what it was, but it was high) it's just a waste to have anything other than the maximum possible research rate. It outweighs any rounding errors there might be.

 

[pholkhero]

nice set, but sux on the war

sorry i've bee OOP unexpectedly this week. shcool started on wed and i didn't realize how unprepared i was until it started

but, 3 day weekend, then 2 days on, 4 days off is what's happening now, so i can take it.

unless the cats do show up, if we pile into tiwanaku, we should hold up against those swords ok. dl'ing and looking at save now

 

[pholkhero]

okay...

in the words of obiwan kenobi, anakin skywalker, c3po, and many other assorted star wars characters: "I have a bad feeling about this"

not surya's troops, but shaka's ~ i'm hoping he can't get to us, but i fear he will just as we're weakened from a first assault.

but we'll see...i'm assuming that those 3 axes are heading to the barb city for our new settler to take over management up there?? i was going to divert 2 for now to help defend us just in case, and send one to scout and draw fire (and xp). i'll whip the walls i think for my peace of mind as well. also, i think we need another worker or two, and I'll work on that. drama for whatever we can get for it? or hold out a bit??

 

[Asaf]

@pholkhero - Actually, I haven't finished my turn set yet. Sorry to cool off your excitement...

Agree on walls in Tiwa and diverting the axes back.
Drama for sell for whatever we can get for it, preferably currency, I think.

 

[Mikehendi]

Hehe, well, at least they're trying to not let us make it to 1AD!

I've looked into the save a bit, and there are some general things that need to be done:

1) We have 3 Ivory, that could mean 3 happy/health instead of 1. For example, pacal is willing to give us fur, and bismarck will give us Dye for it, which gives 1 additional happy with theaters (and we're about to complete drama)

2) I really think we should research currency next, we need to build wealth to be able to put more commerce through the capital's research modifiers.

3) A worker near Olly's wheat should connect it asap for 2 extra health.

4) A worker (maybe a new one) should be busy improving the capitals tiles.

5) And a little bit of a rant here: We really shouldn't trade for small techs we can research in 1-2 turns! Some AI's are only willing to trade a mere 5 techs to us, before they think we're becoming to advanced! And it's not only techs they trade to us, they also count every tech we recieve from other AI's toward that number!


Now, my thoughts about the war:

6) Move the axe in cuzco towards Tiwanaku. It will be 1 turn too late for the initial attack, but can reinforce afterwards.

7) move both axes from machu towards tiwanaku.

8) Whip the partial built axe in machu, overflow into more units (cancel the settler for a moment)

9) Most importantly: switch Tiwanaku to a walls, and whip it ONLY on the last turn before the attack (it will complete in the interturn before they attack)! The overflow can complete the NE or another unit if that's neccesairy.

10) Go ahead with the capture barbarian city plan. We'll have enough units in tiwa.

Disclaimer:
Please note these are just meant to be suggestions. When I reread them (well, most of my posts actually ) they sound like I'm trying to give orders. I don't mean it that way, I just don't know how to rephrase things to make em sound more like suggestions! )

 

[Asaf]

Disclaimer:
Please note these are just meant to be suggestions. When I reread them (well, most of my posts actually ) they sound like I'm trying to give orders. I don't mean it that way, I just don't know how to rephrase things to make em sound more like suggestions! )

It's OK. I struggle with the same problem myself, and then I find I add too many "I think"s and "I guess"s

Anyway:
3) I think () I already ordered this worker to road... I could be mistaken though.
5) Rant accepted. Sorry about that. I didn't know it was counted for other AI's as well. And regardless it might have been the wrong move.

10) Actually the plan wasn't to capture the city, but to gain XP for HE.

I also think we should add some units to our eastern front (Hatty is getting angry).

 

[Mikehendi]

I also think we should add some units to our eastern front (Hatty is getting angry).

Oh great, I hadn't even noticed that. So we might be getting dogpiled soon (I didn't check the diplo or so to check how likely it is that we're the target). I think we should change to building spears instead of axes. Hatty has a lot of war chariots probably. Maybe change the hatty bordering city to a walls until the point we can whip it (but don't whip it yet, only if we get dowed) and gather some axes (after the sury war) and spears). We can only hope she doesn't dow us within 10 turns or so.

Maybe we can beg for 1 gold (does she have currency?) and get a 10 turn peace treaty.

since we need Med for the Philo, and no one will just give it to us

Or did you try to beg Med from every AI? Then it will not work, as this resets their willingness to give us stuff to 0.

Oh, I believe we're also not a "land target" because you need a 7(?) tile shared border for that? I don't know exactly what that means, but it probably decreases the likelyness we're her target.

Sorry for this post being a mess , I'm in a hurry

 

[Asaf]

Didn't beg hatty as she was cautious with us. This actually brings me back to wondering if we should reload the auto save to change her demand's rejection which I accidentally made.
I don't consider this cheating but a bad game design where you can't stop and save before deciding this, and also because of the fact that it wasn't intentional.
This would probably help us a bit with her (although it might upset Shaka).

We can't beg her for 1 gold since she's still cautious.

I'm not sure hatty's WHEOOHRN. Needs to check.

 

[pholkhero]

@pholkhero - Actually, I haven't finished my turn set yet. Sorry to cool off your excitement...

Agree on walls in Tiwa and diverting the axes back.
Drama for sell for whatever we can get for it, preferably currency, I think.

oh good...then it'll be your fault

also, i don't think you all need to worry about the "giving orders" stuff ~ i, for one, never took it to mean anything but: "here's what i think we should do". any good sg SHOULD have these discussions and such, so have no fear.

once you feel confident in on someone's , then you'll know you've arrived [for lessons, search for posts by GreyFox ]

 

[Stochastic]

Here are my thoughts about trading resources. I don't think that we need more happy right now, after the axe I think Cuzco should go back to building workers (no whip) and it is the only city close to the happy cap. What we do need is health so that those workers are built as fast as possible. But we will have cow and wheat connected very soon, cow this turn and wheat next turn (using both workers) so I think we should trade resources for gold. I'm reluctant to trade ivory to any of the Deities because I don't want to deal with war elephants, but we can trade pigs for 4gpt.

For workers, Mike is right, we do need to improve our capital's land, we should make a mine on the last hill and get another cottage, but not on the grassland in the Marble/Fish BFC, that should be a farm later on. Chop out another forest (we have 6 right now so those two will bring 1 more unhealth to the city) then start cottaging, that will get the hammers sooner for earlier benefit. All chops should go to workers IMO. Also, I think the worker by Machu should farm the FP first, we want a high concentration of food in a few tiles to help grow faster. Obviously the worker by Chehalis should obviously improve the pigs then rice then marble.

Remember to promote the two axes in Tiwa to Combat I before Surry attacks us.

Other thoughts, I don't think Olly should be whipped for a long time, it has a lot of good tiles that it can work and should be making use of them.

I am against canceling the settler in Machu, I think it should be completed if at all possible, we really do need more cities to lift our empire (such as it is). I'd be ok with whipping the settler now, though that would be insufficient (not max hammers).

Finally I think George should go finish scouting Bismark's land, I'd like to know where Shaka is.

Oh and Hatty is NOT in WHEOOHRN, so we are ok for a bit longer there.

 

[Soirana]

Here are my thoughts about trading resources..

people often trade resources just to pick few diplo modifiers. just a note.

 

[Stochastic]

Hmm, that is a good point.

Taking that into consideration, maybe we should trade ivory for gold+corn (means we can save worker turns on connecting the corn) from Pascal (since he is least likely to declare on us ) and then pigs to Bismark for something else.

 

[Asaf]

I wasn't able to complete my turn set today. Hopefully (and probably) I'll do it tomorrow.

War and builds:
I intend to withdraw at least 1 axe (probably 2, and only send 1 axe to scout the barb city) from the barb city raid back to cuzco, send the units from cuzco to macchu, and from macchu to Tiwa. (maybe another axe or 2 if I can). Some of these units will be used to other missions (see below).

I'll keep training the settler in macchu. I think I'll whip it next turn. I'll upgrade the quecha in cuzco to an axe and send it to the intended city site (or more likely just send it there and upgrade later when needed).

I guess sury will pillage our gold mine. I don't see a point in trying to stop that. It'll cost too much in units.

A much more worrisome thought: can a scout pillage? If so, sury's scout in the north can pillage our copper before we can stop it. I'll send an axe to take care of the scout. I'll have to send a worker there ASAP. maybe 2.

The axe next to Olly will get to Chehalis for protection (Olly already has an axe of its own). We should upgrade one of the quechas in Chehalis to a spear, but not yet.

I'll switch to walls in Tiwa. I prefer not to whip it, but it doesn't seem to be a choice. I think I'll whip it (only when we must) back into the NE, since this city doesn't even have a barracks, and I think we'll have enough units and defense bonus.

Techs:
Great. The only one who will trade any tech is Sury. Guess we'll wait with trading the drama.
Why can't we see Pacal's research?

After drama we can either go back to currency, or go for compass for trade. Another interesting option is construction for cats (which can help us very much in the short run against incoming stacks) and elephants (we'll need HBR for that).
Shaka is the only one with construction. We might be able to trade with him (although it does seem unlikely with our current stats).

Unless there is some kind of consensus against it, I think I'll go back to currency.

I won't go to binary search (as I explained because of our beaker/gold ratio), unless everyone else think I should. If you do - please explain why.

Trades:
Your suggestions sound good. Ivory to pacal for corn+4, and pigs to bismarck for dye.
If there are no better ideas, I'll do these trades.

Anything else?

 

[happyturtle]

I'm pretty sure scouts can't pillage.

 

[pholkhero]

scouts can't

also, iirc, traded resources also make you less vulnerable from attack from those you trade with...'course, its been awhile so i may be mis-remembering

i think currency should be the way to go. trading, builiding wealth and markets will all be good for us, but i think constr is a very strong move afterwards. Cats and Jumbos might enable us to go on the counterattack in the near future, too.

imo, the only downside to binary is stockpiling gold which makes the AI seem to demand it all that more. i almost always use it now, even though i thought they made some changes to the way commerce was calculated ot make take away some of the rounding problems that made binary "necessary"